Do you think Asuka would forgive Shinji for his actions while she was comatose?

[Asunji_Yuko]

In Instrumentality (in EOE), she didn't even seem that upset when she told him she knew about it. She even flaunted herself while saying so. And all she asked of him was monogamy ('if I can't have you all to myself, I don't want you at all'). To me, this seems like a very normal, reasonable thing to ask your romantic interest.

Sure, she told him "gross...." at the end, but that was in the context of lovingly caressing his cheek.

Given all of these things, do you believe Asuka would forgive his actions?

[C.T.1290]

I’m not sure if she would forgive him, per se. It would take some time for them to make amends for each other’s actions, and it would take them a ton of therapy to resolve their issues.

But give them enough time (since they’re both still fourteen), they might find some ways to talk it out, then maybe they could move on to forgiveness.

[MoonRabbitMallow]

Realistically, I don't think anyone would forgive Shinji for his actions, not without immense accountability but even that is debatable. And I don't think anyone should. Personally I find something like that pretty unforgivable. But, in terms of EoE, to me the answer about the question is less "is this a forgivable action?" and more "what can even be said after experiencing the singular consciousness?"

Having experienced instrumentality, she might not even care at this point. She's seen his worst sides and vice versa- she might even have an idea of what he would say. Collectively they have most likely seen and experienced a whole lot worse in instrumentality. If Asuka learned about Shinji's actions through instrumentality, then, knowing how people just *are*, she's seen a lot worse most likely. Shinji's actions likely pale in comparison to everything else that might have happened in there. Her comment at the end -"disgusting"- really might be all she feels about the whole ordeal, be it out of shock or just a reaction to Shinji's mere existence- or instrumentality itself. Herself? Maybe just that whole experience in general. The whole "disgusting" line has been debated for so many years that I feel like everyone has their own opinion on what it means. I think all of them are right in their own way.

As for the whole caressing his face thing... Maybe she just accepts him for who he is? A very flawed, lonely, messed up person who does messed up things because of all the nonsense he's faced throughout his whole life. No forgiveness is really needed at that point, I think Asuka just accepts Shinji for who he is. Not in a positive or negative way. In a neutral way. Shinji is Shinji, flaws and all. I don't mean this in a love way or hate way, just in a... "Yes, this is how Shinji is. I accept that this is who he is, not because I love him or hate him, but because I understand why Shinji is Shinji." If she accepts that post-instrumentality, then there's no reason why forgiveness should be debated at this point. It likely wouldn't matter. All an apology is, is just a confirmation of their friendship. The two of them just melted brains with the rest of humanity, suffice to say that no words are really necessary at this point.

It's kind of like, yeah she could choose to forgive him or not to forgive him, but forgiving the person you melted minds with, along with the rest of the world, knowing exactly how and why he is the way he is, and him knowing the exact same about you... the words "I'm sorry" would likely just be nothing more than that: words.

(He should still at least say it though lol)

[Asunji_Yuko]

Realistically, I don't think anyone would forgive Shinji for his actions, not without immense accountability but even that is debatable. And I don't think anyone should. Personally I find something like that pretty unforgivable. But, in terms of EoE, to me the answer about the question is less "is this a forgivable action?" and more "what can even be said after experiencing the singular consciousness?"

Having experienced instrumentality, she might not even care at this point. She's seen his worst sides and vice versa- she might even have an idea of what he would say. Collectively they have most likely seen and experienced a whole lot worse in instrumentality. If Asuka learned about Shinji's actions through instrumentality, then, knowing how people just *are*, she's seen a lot worse most likely. Shinji's actions likely pale in comparison to everything else that might have happened in there. Her comment at the end -"disgusting"- really might be all she feels about the whole ordeal, be it out of shock or just a reaction to Shinji's mere existence- or instrumentality itself. Herself? Maybe just that whole experience in general. (1) The whole "disgusting" line has been debated for so many years that I feel like everyone has their own opinion on what it means. I think all of them are right in their own way.

As for the whole caressing his face thing... Maybe she just accepts him for who he is? A very flawed, lonely, messed up person who does messed up things because of all the nonsense he's faced throughout his whole life. No forgiveness is really needed at that point,(2) I think Asuka just accepts Shinji for who he is. Not in a positive or negative way. In a neutral way. Shinji is Shinji, flaws and all. I don't mean this in a love way or hate way, just in a... "Yes, this is how Shinji is. I accept that this is who he is, not because I love him or hate him, but because I understand why Shinji is Shinji." If she accepts that post-instrumentality, then there's no reason why forgiveness should be debated at this point. It likely wouldn't matter. All an apology is, is just a confirmation of their friendship. The two of them just melted brains with the rest of humanity, suffice to say that no words are really necessary at this point.

It's kind of like, yeah she could choose to forgive him or not to forgive him, but forgiving the person you melted minds with, along with the rest of the world, knowing exactly how and why he is the way he is, and him knowing the exact same about you... the words "I'm sorry" would likely just be nothing more than that: words.

(He should still at least say it though lol)

(1) This line came about when Anno asked Yuko Miyamura (Asuka's Japanese VA) what she'd say if a man came into her house and could have raped her but instead masturbated to her. So...it's more or less a reaction to Shinji's actions in the hospital.

(2) Generally speaking, "accept" is a positive thing. Certainly not bad or motivated by hate. "Neutral" doesn't make sense, one either accepts or rejects someone, there isn't really a middle ground beyond a euphemism for rejection.

[Kendrix]

Originally the last line was going to be something like "I'd never let you kill me" but that wasn't thought to have enough zing; (hence that lead to Anno posing that question to Miyamura for inspo)

I would still interpret it like that: She touched him to stop him from killing her.
The script notes her as speaking "in the coldest possible voice", so the last line is one of absolute rejection. (perfectly justified at that point, this is not at all a diss of her)

It's said earlier that undoing instrumentality means people will misunderstand, deceive & hurt each other again so in a sense its only "really" over when the first rejection happens. That's why that epilogue is there.

Of course Shinji just cries at that point & if he didn't kill her now he won't do it later, we can assume that they'll survive without killing each other until some adults emerge from the sea. He's learned to coexist with others even if it means dealing with rejection, though not in some trumphant way, just recognizing the necessity because there isnt an alternative that he would be ok with - hes tried instrumentality and found it worse.

I think the most likely scenario is that after that they'll go their separate ways for a while and then maybe talk it out some years later when they're older & wiser & perhaps had some therapy, & then I could see them settling into an "old friends" like dynamic.

If I think this through not in terms of what anyone "should" do but what they're actually likely to do, Asuka isn't likely to frame things in terms of morally forgiveable or not or taking a victim position (even when that would be justified), her actual reaction when finding out in instrumentality was to mock him for being pathetic or tease him to assert dominance ("Go on, I'll even watch!") - she doesn't like him because she thinks he's respectable, she got attached due to proximity & being in adrenaline-charged situations as the same time, that kinda thing can be pretty persistent in the face of extreme actions, so she'd probably continue to interact with him in a familiar manner even if an edge of bitterness & bad blood will probably also remain.

[kuribo-04]

I feel like the characters are beyond our understanding of forgiveness and such after experimenting Instrumentality. The last scene in EoE seemd to me like they can mutually understand, but having a scene anything other than as dark as it is would have been tone deaf.

[FelipeFritschF]

I don't know if the right word for it is "forgive". She resents him, but the strangest part is she isn't even mad at Shinji's masturbation per se. Something we've talked about for a while is how Misato was unable to express herself and reach out to others if not for sexuality, and I think Asuka and Shinji both learned a bit of that from Misato. Besides Asuka's longing for his attention and interpreting his inaction as rejection (whereas Shinji is in fact just as afraid of reaching out as she is), I should bring attention to the fact that Asuka is not only shown to be fully aware of his actions during the Hell Train scene, there is a lot of nuance there that is easily missed.

Asuka: "Idiot! I know that I'm your jerk-off fantasy. Go ahead and do it as usual, I'll be here and watch. If you cannot be mine and mine only, I don't even want you."

In the original Japanese, Asuka uses the idiomatic expression "I know you've been using me as a [dish]". In Japanese, "using something as a side dish" is an expression for using something or someone for one's erotic fantasies, but with the underlying implication that the person using the "side dish" is too scared to actually act on their feelings. As such, Asuka might even be implying that Shinji could have had the "real thing" before, but hesitated.

[...]

Additionally, Asuka shows that she is not only aware that Shinji has masturbated to her in the hospital, but clearly implies it is in fact a habit of his. That she is still willing to accept this in a sense might indicate how much she also wants his affections, as long as they are committed. In fact, in an earlier EoE script, Shinji would not masturbate in the hospital, but instead in his room, thinking of Asuka with superimposed images of breasts (similar to what Shinji sees when he is asked by Lilith-Rei what he wishes for just before entering Instrumentality) and even his face as he ejaculated. This further reinforces Asuka's implication that this was not only a spur-of-the-moment act.

According to Megumi Ogata, Shinji's voice actress, the scene itself was modeled on a experience of a female friend of Anno's. This friend got into an argument with her boyfriend, and at some point he choker her in rage. Instead of reacting violently, this friend felt no fear, but rather a desire to caress him. In response, her boyfriend lost her grip. However, Anno's friend instead grew cold, and muttered Asuka's line from the EoE draft almost verbatim. Ogata believes this scene was how Anno wanted to "convey different ways how to bring feelings of love to a conclusion that exist in reality. You are you, I am I". Naturally, this reflects on the films of individuality and the duality of reaching out to others present in Eva.

Anno also guided Ogata to treat OMF partly as a separate story: "as something that just exists. As if everything that happened before in the movie is merely a dream that never happened. It is its own narrative unity, something that can fundamentally be taken away from its context in the movie and still be interpreted as a dramatic whole. It is and is not the final scene of EoE."
post/921076/Merch-Evangelion-book-review-blog/#921076

So I think the problem here is whether they are able to reach an understatement and not forgiveness per se. Asuka certainly resents Shinji for multiple things, and I don't think she's saying her line only at him, but also at least partly to herself. Perhaps she now understands him a bit better too, after going through her own Instrumentality and also choosing to reject it for the real world. Perhaps she also blames herself to a degree.