Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Melkor » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:47 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Why are you trying to squeeze Mk.9 and Wunder into the Adams ranks, out of curiosity?


When it comes to theories about fiction, I usually follow the principle of Occam's Razor, which states that the simplest explanation that involves the least amount of assumptions is usually the one that's correct. Well, if this were any other series that would probably be true, but this is Evangelion we're talking about here, so who knows. I'm basing my assumptions solely on things we've been shown so far in the previous three movies. We haven't seen the White Moon yet, so it's harder for me to make any assumptions relating to it and the Wunder until it actually shows up. As of now though, my current theory doesn't really contradict anything, so I'm satisfied with it until something new comes along to change my perspective. I eagerly await your post on Mark.09 to see what your perspective on it is. I'm sure as more previews and teasers come out, we'll get a better look what's going on and have more to work with, and my theories will no doubt change to match the new information.

I can think of other reasons for how Urthona might be connected to the Wunder though. In the preview, we see a shot that appears to be Shinji on the Wunder with Kaworu, most likely some kind of hallucination. If it is on the Wunder, Shinji being in close proximity to Kaworu's original Adam body could allow them to have some sort of psychic link (or strengthen their psychic link if it already exists) and let Kaworu manifest to Shinji. Kaworu having a psychic link with his original Adam body would also explain how Rei Q knew EXACTLY where to find Shinji on the Wunder to extract him (and also how the Mark.04s keep finding the fleet). Kaworu could have told Gendo, who in turn told Rei Q over the comm on Mark.09 as she approached the Wunder.

Just curious, what word did they use for "vessel of the Adams" in Japanese? Was it vessel as in a "container" for something, or vessel as in a "ship"? If it was vessel as in a ship, then I can maybe start to see how the theory of each Moon having its own ship would make sense. If the Wunder is indeed a ship that originated from the White Moon, then Ritsuko calling Mark.09 "Wunder's original master" would make sense from the perspective that the Adams are technically the rightful owners of the ship, since it came from their Moon, and one of them in the form of Mark.09 was merely trying to reclaim it from the Lilin who stole it. Since the Adams are a collective, Ritsuko calling Mark.09 the "Wunder's original master" could also be seen as her referring to the four of them as a whole, and not just Mark.09, who is part of that whole.

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:08 pm

View Original PostMelkor wrote:When it comes to theories about fiction, I usually follow the principle of Occam's Razor, which states that the simplest explanation that involves the least amount of assumptions is usually the one that's correct.

I'm not sure how any of that applies here. We have four beings, which we know were humanoids of roughly equal size, with at least one no longer extant, and there's ample enough evidence to figure out who they are in the post-2I timeline. I don't need to repeat any of it, since it's all accessible from my very first post. Squeezing Mk.9 and Wunder into the Adams ranks first requires the, ahem, assumption that they are in fact Adams (when one of them is explicitly called something OTHER than an "Adams", and the other does not resemble an Adams in any way nor have any specifically Adamsian properties). Then it requires deciding that the need to force them into that classification -- when plenty of alternatives exist -- trumps the evidence that, say, 01 or the Key are Adams.

In any case, I'd prefer this thread stick to the initial premise that was laid out, which is right in the title. If you want to debate specific points or ask about any glaring omissions, then please do so, but if you want to hash out speculation that's completely unrelated except for reference to Zoa names, there are other, better places to do that.

Some of your questions are addressed in the post I'm working on, so I'll let them wait for now.

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:48 am

Mark.09: Part 1

Exactly what Mark.09 is and where it fits into things is something I had planned to cover much earlier, but it’s a little like the “Lilith was an Adams all along” reveal — it’s simply easier to come back to it later on. Since Mark.09 is a complete pain in the ass to work with, the first part of my related write-up will be very “general” and not especially tie into the thread’s themes. This is mostly for the sake of explaining my thoughts on what this thing is and where it fundamentally fits into things, which is necessary before going any further. The majority of the Mk.9: Pt.1 content that follows has been around for quite a while, and I’m simply condensing everything into a single place.

What is an “Adams’ Vessel”, anyway?

Before working out that the Adams have to be 01, 06, 13, and the Key, it’s tempting to slot 09 somewhere in there. After all, “Adams” is right in that phrase that it gets called over and over: “Adams’ Vessel”. What does that even mean, anyway?

So, “Adams’ vessel” is Adams no utsuwa (アダムスの器). Utsuwa means “vessel” in the sense of a “container” — something that holds something else. (As in, that is its primary function. A bowl is an example of an utsuwa.) The “Adams no” part could be indicating ownership / origin, or it could be telling us what the vessel holds. A previous example of utsuwa being used in NTE is in the Explanation of 1.01 feature, where the entry plug is described as tamashii no utsuwa, or “vessel for a soul” -- a vessel that doesn't belong to a soul, but is meant to contain one.

Clearly, this container does not literally contain any of the Adams, leaving the “owner/origin” interpretation for “Adams no” the more likely one. Mark.09 originates from the Adams in some way. So what is this particular vessel supposed to actually hold, then?

The big reveal about Mark.09’s true nature before it is destroyed is that “its whole body is (a) core!” The original Japanese is こいつ、全身がコア!, and with “core” referring now to a material as well as to “round shiny red thing”, that provides some flexibility in interpreting the line. Here’s what prompts the comment:

SPOILER: Show
Image


Mark.09’s true form appears to be a centralized core where an Eva’s would normally be, suspended within a bunch of other cores mashed together into a humanoid form. The presence of a distinctive central core, despite the entire body being made of the stuff, distinguishes Mark.09 from the film’s other stand-out “all-core entity”, the 12th Angel, which ultimately looked more like one giant core than anything else.

Extrapolating toward some tentative conclusions: Although Mark.09’s true form is a core, it cannot be targeted and destroyed because its entire body is made up of redundancies that allow it to effortlessly rejuvenate its main core. The special properties of core-material also enable these redundancies to function as an Eva-like body with a frightening degree of precision -- even the intricate components of the entry plug housing can be perfectly replicated -- and without the same difficulties that the flesh poses, as damage can be easily shrugged off. (One wonders if core-based life-forms have any disadvantages whatsoever, but that's a whole 'nother topic...)

Now, setting aside all of the extravagantly bizarre core-related mysteries introduced in Q, let’s go back to the question of what this “vessel” is intended to hold. Well, think about it. Cores are in and of themselves vessels! For what? When present, a soul and/or the Fruit of Life. (EDIT: My next post, Core Detour, addresses some of the NTE-specific evidence for this.)

So, based on the following:

  • This being is called an “Adams’ Vessel”.
  • It does not contain any Adams; therefore the “Adams’” part refers to origin or ownership.
  • It is a core.
  • A core is a container/vessel for a soul.


…we have our answer. “Adams’ Vessel” means “Vessel for an Adams’ Soul”, or just “Adams’ Core”. Mark.09 is the core of an Adams. Or was, once upon a time. Lilith knows what Seele did to it.

For those who still feel skeptical, given the whole “Wunder’s original master” thing, we also have the full designation of this Mk.09 form:

SPOILER: Show
Image


...available, courtesy of merchandise. (Which only slightly eases the pain of having to wait for the 3.0 CRC to see what ALL of the expanded designations are.) That being,

第1のアダムスの器(移行中間形態)ゼーレ仕様
First Adams' Vessel (Partly-Transitioned Form), Seele Specifications

Yes. “First”. Meaning there are others, in theory...

I mean, this is pretty fishy...  SPOILER: Show
Remember all of those missing Evas toward the end of the lineup? Check it.

09: Mark.09 = First Adams' Vessel
10: ?
11: ?
12: ?
13: Evangelion 13

Now, with the interpretation in hand that “Adams’ Vessel” is just a weird euphemism for “Adams’ Core”… how many cores could there be altogether, hypothetically? There were five at Second Impact. If Urthona only left behind that little headless nervous system, that’s four possible cores that can be made into bizarro Evas. And, lo:

09: First Adams' Vessel
10: Second Adams' Vessel
11: Third Adams' Vessel
12: Fourth Adams' Vessel
13: Evangelion 13

Three missing Evas accounted for. Now they just have to show up to the party. I have a funny feeling that they’ll pretty important in the next movie, Lilith’s Vessel especially, but that’s… neither here nor there…


Vessels and Wunder

With this reveal that “Adams’ Vessel” is actually a generic term that can refer to multiple potential beings, new light is shed upon Ritsuko’s confusing line...

アダムスの器、ヴンダー本来の主。
The Adams’ Vessel(s) is/are Wunder’s original master(s).
or: The Adams’ Vessel is an original master of Wunder.

Japanese is all about context, and Eva loves to take advantage of that. If there is more than one Adams’ Vessel, then, implicitly, any one of them is a true master over Wunder.

The exact phrasing here is also worth noting. The exact term Ritsuko uses is honrai no (本来の). This is “original” in the sense of “primary”, “intrinsic”, “intended”, “natural”.

Though Wille’s schematics refer to Eva-01 as merely a “power core”, and the entire array as an “engine”, we know this to be a simplification at best, since, from the mouth of Ritsuko herself: “[The Adams’ Vessel] is trying to take back control of this ship from Eva Unit 01.” Meaning, Eva-01 had previously been the one “in control”, giving us an idea of how the Wunder is intended to work.

Eva-01 is inside the biomechanical shell at the heart of the engine, which is the closest thing that Wunder has to a core. With the Eva inside, Wunder is powered, can project an A.T. Field, deploy halos, and so forth. Of course, the Eva is in a state of restraint, and Wunder in its current state also receives the crew through an “anchoring plug” and interfaces with them via LCL gas. It brings to mind the core/plug interface that humans use to control Evas, which I'm sure is intentional. But if the Wunder’s “original master” is the core of an Adams, and said master takes back control through the device that Eva-01 is in… (Mark.09 "hacks" the Wunder by dropping blue tendrils into the engine.) That makes it pretty unambiguous that Eva-01 occupies a place of primacy over the anchoring plug, while an original Adams' core has primacy over Eva-01. So we can start coming to some further conclusions:

Wunder is fundamentally an “Evangelion for Adams”. (Or, really, for Adam, but since Adam doesn’t currently exist, generalizations must be made to the closest existing things.) Rather than using something like an entry plug, the Wunder has a mock core that the “pilot” completely enters, in turn becoming the Wunder’s core. The Wunder will work with the body of an Adams, such as Eva-01, but it gives greater priority to an original core. Why would this be? There’s no real way to say, other than “that’s just the way it works”. Eva often operates through “show, don’t tell” — it shows things happening, and lets us puzzle out how and why. Perhaps the fact that the Wunder functions this way is, in and of itself, an important bit of insight into the greater mysteries of core and core-based tech.

Beyond that, it’s hard to say, right now, what the Wunder “really” is. The “AAA” in its full name stands for “Autonomous Assault Ark” — “Ark” might be a pretty important clue about its true nature and function. Its skeletal state and extensive human modifications suggest it was subject to similar treatment as the Third Angel. But where did it even come from? The movie pointedly doesn’t provide any information about where Wunder’s launch actually happens, or how Wille acquired the ship. We’re simply not meant to know yet.

However, it’s worth noting that Gendo and Fuyutsuki are last seen in Q inside a bridge much like the Wunder’s, which indicates there is another ship like it somewhere. Suspiciously, the Neo-Nerv pyramid also has a device inside it almost identical to the Wunder’s "engine". If that weren’t enough, we know that the pyramid originates from inside the Black Moon, and that it is, quite oddly, capable of interacting with Impact phenomena. This raises all sorts of questions about what Wunder might have originally looked like, whether such a being might be embedded within the pyramid, and whether Wunder, like the Nerv pyramid, originated from a Moon-type structure. No White Moon equivalent has been confirmed, of course, but we do see a bizarre planetoid inside the Gates of Guf at Fourth Impact, and if the Black Moon can receive a makeover to become a goblet-drill-thing, we should expect similar weird changes to Adam’s equivalent…

But this is getting wildly off topic. To sum up: the Wunder is intrinsically some sort of ancient vehicular biotech intended for Adam’s use, wherein Adam would enter a core-like structure and act as the Wunder’s core. It may be a companion “Ark” to the currently-MIA White Moon, or NTE’s equivalent of such. Mark.09 and similar beings are the Wunder’s true masters because the Wunder prioritizes original Adams’ cores over original Adams’ bodies. The reason for this is unknown but could have important deeper applications.

Pt.2 of this Mark.09 treatment will tie things back to the thread topic.

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:23 am

@Reichu, what a impressive analysis! Even though I'm still skeptic about the Adams' division you propose, this proposition regarding Mark.09 seems to account for every single point provided by NTE! And with the Eva serial numbering you propose, we hopefully will be able to validate it in 3.0+1.0. Amazing work, really!

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:42 pm

@Reichu: Really interesting write-up! If I somehow missed this (since these posts were a long read) do let me know, but how do you tie in these points to all this, contrasting their past as Adams with modern day reincarnation? 1) Rei and Shinji's apparent sibling connection (various lines and scenes in 1.0-3.0 imply the Rei to Yui connection, as well as Rei being a potential (little sister?) to Shinji). 2) Mari's "I wonder if it's because he smells different?" comment about Shinji during 2.0's Near Third Impact.
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Melkor » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:02 pm

Some very interesting theories here. I'm starting to like them more and more.

View Original PostReichu wrote:…we have our answer. “Adams’ Vessel” means “Vessel for an Adams’ Soul”, or just “Adams’ Core”. Mark.09 is the core of an Adams. Or was, once upon a time. Lilith knows what Seele did to it.


So which Adam would they have gotten that core from? Did they remove Mark.06's core after it was sealed with the spears and place it in Mark.09? I can't imagine there would have been any core left for them to remove from Mark.06 though, seeing as the 12th Angel ate Mark.06 out (lol, that ended up sounding very sexual, especially since Mark.06 is Mari's original body). If not Mark.06, then did they somehow find the leftover core from Urthona's body and re-purpose it, or is it a core from one of the Angels?

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Sgt. Griff » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:30 am

View Original PostMelkor wrote:So which Adam would they have gotten that core from? Did they remove Mark.06's core after it was sealed with the spears and place it in Mark.09?...


Just spitballing, Seele/Nerv may have removed the cores from all the Adams before turning any of them into Evas. We know they have Core replacement tech from 2.0, so it was probably a safety measure to stop them awakening before they were ready. I imagine there's some protocol in the adams' vessels where they don't want to be assimilated back into their host.
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Silver0706 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:38 pm

Congratulations Reichu, very interesting posts. I registered to compliment you and ask you some questions.
For you the Rebuild's Instrumentality would be similar to NGE's Instrumentality? Gendo wants to unify souls in a god? And Yui? She is agree with this thing? The souls become one for not suffering and in the end Shinji refuses this? So, did Anno create the Rebuild to do the same thing again?
And about the cycle? If I have understand, for you the cycle is like a Eternal return by Nietzsche, but without a time loop, or a multiverse or something similar, what would be the metatextual sense of the cycle? Just to say that some things can happen several times in life? Considering your theory what would be the Rebuild's message? What's new at the message level?

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Zoop » Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:15 pm

Very fun read, has been a while Ive read such an extensive theory that made me go "that makes sense" several times. It would explain a lot, mainly debunking loop-theory and offering a proper explanation for Kaworu's weird talks about meeting Shinji again. For that alone this is extremely satisfying to read.

Ive read it all in one go, so unless I missed it, you don't talk about the other angels (3-12) origin/births, while I feel it might fit in this theory too. Like for example, the Angels were part of the previous Instrumentality too and they too got separated and flung all over during second impact (or maybe more akin to the reincarnation you talked about, hence why it takes aprox. as long as the adams to mature for them to start appearing). It would explain their desire for returning and also why Lilin must defeat them: to exclude them from the next instrumentality (so lilin can take their place?).
It would be kind of weird if instrumentality would be "undoable" like that, like merging all mankind, and then later it could fall apart again and people would become independent again ... or is it? If you take the final scene of EoE, thats exactly what happened...

My mind was just wandering in this direction, I got nothing really conclusive, I was just wondering if you considered the same, and if not, why not? Is there some other strong theory about where the Angels (except for adam(s) lilith) really come from? Or never mind if you consider this to be too off-topic

Edit: I wanted to add, reincarnation of important characters and repeating of events, with a single (grey haired) guy who still remembered what happened last time, reminds me of an anime, Aquarion (https://myanimelist.net/anime/478/Sousei_no_Aquarion), it's also about a forbidden union and how they play out roles as described in the legends (even as far as the "badguy" acting out of character by helping out in the end, which he only does out of love for another dude). The sequel got a bit ridiculous with pilots who orgasm when successfully sync with their mecha's.

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:27 am

@Reichu, I was passing by an old papyri containing the epistles of Paul on my research and stumbled upon an interesting passage: "ουτως και γεγραπται εγενετο ο πρωτος ανθρωπος Αδαμ εις ψυχηνζωσαν ο εσχατος εις [πνευμα] ζωοποιουν". It's usually translated as "and so it is written: the first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit" (emphasis added by me).
NTE contains much more New Testament references than NGE, and I found quite interesting that in this case, Paul refers to the messiah as "the last Adam", a "quickening" (is the given context, a life-giving) spirit.
Since Kaworu is usually presented as a messianic figure, I think that this passage points to some valid correlations with your theory: the dichotomy between the first and the last, alpha and omega; reference to a first and a last Adam; the life-giving quickening; etc.
Hope it's useful! :wink:

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Giji Shinka » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:35 pm

Once again, very impressive stuff Reichu. The way you connected Adams and Kaworu to Four Zoas ( Urizen, Tharmas, Luvah/Orc and Urthona/Los) is probably my favorite part of this analysis.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Mark.09 and similar beings are the Wunder’s true masters because the Wunder prioritizes original Adams’ cores over original Adams’ bodies. The reason for this is unknown but could have important deeper applications.

So Eva's 9-12 are Adams' cores and they're the original cores of Eva-Unit.01, Eva-Mark.06 and Eva-Unit.13 (+ Nebuchadnezzar's Key?) and the cores they currently have are "fake"?
2.0 did show us core replacement technology, so it could make sense.


View Original PostReichu wrote:If that weren’t enough, we know that the pyramid originates from inside the Black Moon

It took me this long to realize that the inverted pyramid is actually a sliced off piece of the black moon, it even has the same dark color and lunar craters... :facepalm:
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Zoop » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:15 pm

Giji Shinka wrote:It took me this long to realize that the inverted pyramid is actually a sliced off piece of the black moon, it even has the same dark color and lunar craters... :facepalm:


oh wow, thank you, I didn't realize that either (thought its shape was a bit too weird to be black moon, but as a piece of it... makes sense).

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:59 am

I said I would do Pt.2 of the Mk.9 thing next, but one of Melkor’s responses reminded me of an issue I’ve avoided addressing so far — namely because it’s a mind-numbing headache. But it’s REALLY BOTHERING ME, so I’m going to clog up my own thread with a dreadfully messy semi-tangential post, in the hope the rest of you have any ideas that might help… (I'll play catch-up on responses next.)

=A Core Detour=

The question that's bothering me is, what happened to the Adams’ respective cores and/or souls between Second Impact and their later conversion into Evangelions?

If a core functions as the vessel of a soul, then, in order for the Artificial Evolution Laboratory to have incarnated all of the Adams’ souls shortly after Second Impact, the Adams’ cores would have needed to be accessible to them. But a great deal still remains entirely unknown about how and when Seele/Nerv came into possession of the post-2I Adams. Luvah may have washed up on the shores of Japan, so that’s easy and early access. Tharmas was blasted to the Moon, and it’s only over a decade later that a Nerv base is being established around it — was it really left alone that entire time? The remains of Urthona have been converted into the Key at 2I+15 at the latest. (This isn't even getting into Kaworu's body, which we can surmise was not created the same way as Shinji, Mari, and Asuka, and may have even been created at 2I itself...) Urizen is completely unaccounted for until 2I+29; one wonders if maybe it was at the South Pole the entire time, but there’s no information any which way.

Now, obviously, some problems become evident here with the timing of Mark.06’s Eva-conversion at least. If Seele knew where it was the entire time, why do they wait so long to do anything with it? And if they didn’t know where it was… how could its soul get into Mari??

I think there’s ample enough evidence everywhere else for the Adams-Children correspondence that this issue qualifies as a “difficulty” rather than an “impossibility”. First, let me share some stray observations, in hope that perhaps a greater picture will emerge…

At the time of Yui’s experiment, Eva-01’s core has a clouded, motionless appearance that, AFAIK, is seen nowhere else in the films.

SPOILER: Show
Image


(Look specifically at the patterning inside the core itself, not at the pool of light forming beneath Yui.)

Contrast to how Eva-01’s core looks after the experiment, at Near Third Impact specifically:

SPOILER: Show
Image


We see here that it looks “alive” and comparable to an Angel core. Examples:

SPOILER: Show
Image

^ Fourth Angel

SPOILER: Show
Image

^ 8th Angel

SPOILER: Show
Image

^ 12th Angel

Could the cloudy look originally present in Eva-01’s core simply be how an Adams’ core looks after its original soul has been removed? Or is it maybe how artificially generated Eva cores look before souls are put into them?

Mark.09’s main core is fairly normal-looking, for whatever that’s worth:

SPOILER: Show
Image


If both premises are correct -- (A) the Adams' souls were separated from their original bodies and incarnated, and (B) the Vessel is/has an Adams' core -- then Mk.9's core being "alive" doesn't seem to make much sense at all, does it? Does it necessarily follow, then, that one or both of the premises are wrong? At this point, it's worth reflecting upon how VERY LITTLE information on Eva cores we actually have, which makes it difficult to know what conclusions are meant to be drawn from how Mk.9's main core appears. Observe:

1) We see Eva-00’s core (confirmed as such in storyboards/script) after it’s pulled out of the 10th Angel. However, at this point Rei has been absorbed into it, so it having the normal glimmery look should be expected, based on Yui's precedent. But on that same basis, the core did not necessarily look the same BEFORE Rei was absorbed.
2) Eva-02’s is removed from the unit, but the core itself is encased in a cover (confirmed as such in the 2.0 CRC) and isn’t seen directly. Despite how much armor Eva-02 throws off during its "beast" transformations, the core remains covered at those times also. As a final slap in the face, when Eva-02's remains are seen toward the end of Q, the entry plug housing is visible, but there is no core in sight (meaning it was either destroyed in the explosion, or is, understandably, being housed someplace more secure than the exposed deck of an airship).
3) Eva-03’s is, somehow, never visible amidst all of that denuding and rending of flesh.
4) Mark.06 we know has one from the lump on the chest before it’s armored, but the core is never directly seen. (In Q, it was originally storyboarded with an exposed core, but the chest piece is intact in the final film.)
5) Eva-13 we see piercing its core with the spears, but, again, the core itself is not seen.
6) Evas 05 and 08 never show their cores.
7) The Mk.4s have normal-looking cores (ex. 4A), but the Mk.4s aren’t exactly indicative of Evas in general…

Another interesting thing: When we see Shinji’s plug achieving “Great Beyond Depth” at the end of 2.0, Eva-01’s core is clearly visible in the graphic. However, for all of the other “entry plug array” schematics I’ve checked, including the ones where Rei, Asuka, and Mari respectively achieve dangerous plug depth, there is no core in sight. (If I missed something, please let me know!)

It almost feels like the movies are being intentionally obfuscatory about this issue. It’s hard to come to any conclusions about Eva cores if we're not allowed to see enough of the damned things to detect patterns.

So, to both move on and reiterate... We know that cores CAN look weird before a soul is placed inside them, but we can’t confirm if this is universal, since we only have the one clear-cut example.

The “glimmer” animation seems to correspond reliably with the core having “life” inside it. Many Angel cores lose this glimmer and turn plain red or even go dark before exploding into LCL (some skip those steps and burst straight into LCL). The FoIs in the main shaft that were bored through to clear a path are plain red and don’t have a glimmer inside them, unlike the intact FoIs. (The fact that they’re still holding shape at all despite being dead may have something to do with the greater mystery of why Angels and Mk.4s explode into goo when they die but normal Evas don’t.)

However, one thing I wonder about more and more is if the life required to “animate” a core necessarily has to be a soul. It would really help to be able to see one of the non-Adams Evas’ cores here, since those are extremely likely candidates for not being ensouled the way Eva-01 is or the Angels are, with the cores being animated, or perhaps “programmed” is a better word, some other way. Now, if those cores still managed to look “normal” despite having something other than a soul placed inside, that would tilt the possible interpretations for Mk.9 one way; but if these cores looked distinctly different? Then it would be a whole other argument. The only possible lead I can think of here would be "core-tech" like the Seele monoliths and the dummy system. Those both have the regular core glimmer attached to them, but they're machines at the same time... :chinscratch:

That said, there is another possible angle here to explore, which is the sort of “remote-linking” of body-body and body-soul that’s been implied directly using Lilith-based examples so far. Lilith’s head is separated from her body, and yet it promptly bursts into LCL when the spears are removed from Lilith’s body. This only makes any sense if there is some mechanism that keeps flesh and flesh linked in a similar, though not necessarily identical, way as if they were physically connected. (I say "not necessarily" because the head is, unlike the body, in Rei's image, and also stopped growing with rest of the body after decapitation, suggesting this remote-link has certain limitations.) In addition, Rei Q is said to have a soul that’s not in the usual place -- in other words, it's somewhere outside her body, i.e., it's (probably) inside of Eva-01 where we know Lilith’s soul to be. This phenomenology seems like it may stretch far beyond the usual “quantum Rei” antics this time, and incorporate the Adams as well (fair enough, I suppose), which if true could maybe explain how Mk.9’s core still looks ‘alive’ despite the soul being incarnated into a Lilin body. (I’ll dive deeper into this argument in Pt.2 of the Mk.9 write-up.)

Another possibility, I suppose, is that the spark of life couldn’t be removed completely from the First Adams’ Vessel. Maybe, once that spark is present, it remains there until the core is altogether dead. (This concept could have precedent in how, in OG Eva, there was something inside Lilith to welcome Rei back.) If true, this would tell us that Yui did in fact enter an artificial core, installed to replace the one originally there.

...taking this mess of a post back to the original problem of “how was the AEL able to incarnate the Adams so quickly?”

One thing we don’t know ANYTHING about is how Second Impact was actually stopped. The Spears were presumably involved, but that’s awfully vague. Is that all there was to it? From the data we have, Spears were able to stop two Impacts (N3I and 3I) but not another (4I), so we can’t take it for granted that they alone would be enough to stop 2I.

Before they return to radiant giant state, Eva-01 and Eva-13 are both shown absorbing an Angel. In Eva-01's case, we see the 10th Angel's body fluid condense into a giant core!Rei around the core of Eva-00, and this newly formed being promptly merges into Eva-01's chest. While this is happening, the previously motionless vessels surrounding the core stir to life (all of the weird layers in that shot make this quite difficult to see; the core is the source of the blinding light, and the vessels are easiest to see thumping away to the right of it). The fusion produces a massive outflux of energy, and Eva-01 is a radiant giant the next time we see it. With Eva-13, we see it condense the utterly massive final form of the 12th Angel to bite size and devour it, after which it takes a moment to complete Pseudo-Evolution Stage 1, and then in one frenzied burst it transcends to a pure white form of Radiant Giant, surpassing what Eva-01 had achieved. The link between "eat Angel" and "turn into a radiant giant" is again more or less clear-cut. Further, the radiant giant transition is accompanied by a ring of energy can be seen emanating from the chest — from just above the core’s presumed location. The "just above" part may ruin the whole "the FoL is in the core" argument, I suppose, but I'm hard-pressed to think of anything significant about the center of the X-shaped pattern other than its proximity to the core... (Cores freely shifting their location on the vertical axis depending on the aesthetic needs / continuity blunders of the specific shot is typical Eva mischief, as well.)

So, assuming the Fruit of Life DOES reside inside the core like in old Eva (which both 01 and 13's pseudo-evolutions suggest, to variable degrees of persuasiveness), this tells us that a potential means of forcing the Adams (other than Urthona) into burn-out from their radiant giant state is, well, to separate them from their cores. We know that with regular Evas, there is some means of accomplishing this, though how reliant the procedure is on the Evas’ mechanization is unknown. I honestly have no idea what could cause the Adams’ cores to leave their bodies, but the idea is awfully tempting. It removes both soul and energy source from the equation, providing a more foolproof way for the Impact to stop than a mere skewering might accomplish; and if the cores are scattered separately from the Adams' bodies, then Seele/Nerv can pursue and acquire the Adams’ souls independently of the Adams themselves.

So, to bring this messy post to a close, my REALLY REALLY REALLY tentative thinking at the moment is:

- Adams (barring Urthona) are somehow separated from their cores at Second Impact
- Cores are collected by Seele/Nerv; souls are extracted and incarnated in (near-)Lilin form.
- Artificial cores that intrinsically lack both souls and the FoL are placed inside 01, 06, and 13.
- Adams' original cores kept for Seele's purposes; installed into core-based Eva bodies and rebranded as "Adams' Vessel".

Obvious problems to figure out:
- How would a hypothetical "core-jettison" at Second Impact even happen?
- Why would the Adams' cores retain the glimmer of life even after souls are removed?
- What happens to the Fruit of Life? Is it still inside the original cores? Or did it get 'lost' somewhere along the way?
- If still inside core, why would Gendo rely on something as finicky as absorbing Angels to awaken 01 and 13? Does Seele simply keep the Vessels under lock and key? Gendo couldn't mastermind 13 into absorbing Mk.9 somehow?

This post is a disgusting mess and I apologize profusely. The next one will be much better.

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Zoop » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:48 pm

I think this has merit. Having your post in mind, im imagining second impact to be like EoE for a moment, with the harpies spearing themselves on the tree of life.

Pinning their cores (or its being done to them) and then it all explodes somehow (fruits of life being transferred, but halted? (to lilith? creating sort of GNR that collapsed, explaining the red seas?)), violently (killing the fruit's of life? or maybe the Angels "took" them?), throwing the adams bodies about while losing lot's of blood, and the cores are left at those crosses inside the vortex. The souls still lingering, unable to return where they came from (because the cores are still speared?), so they reincarnated (with help from the Artificial Evolution Laboratory?). Or the souls were easy to extract when cores are inactive.

Somewhere along those lines.

I'm really hoping you are going to cover the Angels origin's / births in your theories, because i think it could be interesting if their appearance was directly caused by second impact (and not just that theyve "always" been there, and they merely awoke). The Angels being some kind of byproduct because of messing with the fruits of life of the adams and thus maybe explaining what happened to their fruits.
01 and 13 eating an angel would then kind of be a necessity, the Angels took the only available fruits so they must be taken back.

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Cookie H Wilson » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:10 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Mark.09: Part 1


If that weren’t enough, we know that the pyramid originates from inside the Black Moon, and that it is, quite oddly, capable of interacting with Impact phenomena.


Hi Reichu. I love your posts, they are always very well written and tend to illuminate facts that sometimes we cannot even fathom to see while watching these movies. So thank you a lot for the great work. And please keep up, you are great.
But I always thought that the Neo-Nerv pyramid was set in place after 3rd impact, as a containment facility in which the Eva-4 series production keeps going. The way the internal walls are placed it's pretty weird and looks like a recomposition of some sort (which I have no idea what kind of "magic" could have shape it the way it is presented to us.) Since it contains the old Nerv headquarter I don't think it originates from the Black Moon. I simply think the Black Moon was buried under the main shaft and it's interior is "alive" (as in the elevator shot with Shinji and Misato going to visit Lilith in 1.11 where we see what looks like a nervous system). The main shaft was the only access to it. I think the pyramid containing the same type of engine the AAA Wunder has, it has anti gravitational capability, hence why it stay there after the shaft is destroyed by Eva unit 13.
The way it reacts to the Guf Chamber (or whatever that spherical multi crossed white thing is) in a way that the vortex tend (as seen in the happening of 3rd impact as well) or has a tendency to attract object to it, like a vortex that sucks in everything, and those red lines "connecting" the pyramid top sprinkles to "the great beyond" are just a way to show there is an attraction but also a kind of friction since the Neo Nerv pyramid has a gravitational force of its own (check the ring of clouds around it).
The sucking power of the vortex makes the black moon levitate towards it and the pyramid being in between kinda ends up "sitting" on top of the black moon. When the Guf Door is closed such "attraction force" goes off and everything re-descends except for the pyramid (which I suspect is now inside the Guf.)
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:27 pm

Thanks for the kind words, everybody! The reception has been wonderful and I'm really thankful for everyone who gave my write-up a chance, considering how off-putting the length and density of ideas must make it. Apologies for the delay, as I can sometimes get stuck inside my own head; I'll do my best to answer everyone's questions.

--------------------

Cookie H. Wilson: The fact that the pyramid contains the old headquarters and lies on top of the Main Shaft means it must have been part of the Black Moon, since the Black Moon is where the Geofront and the Main Shaft originally were. Incidentally, the very first movie seems to hint at some form of the pyramid substructure -- while already inside the Geofront, Misato and Shinji are shown passing across a large gap into something with a crater-pocked surface. They arrive at the Eva cages (which, in Q, are located inside the giant pyramid) after that.

Of course, I'm as utterly baffled as everyone else about how exactly the transformation of the Geofront worked mechanically... but I won't rule out the possibility that they actually did think it through completely, and we're mostly just confused due to the difficulties of communicating both layout and scale in a medium like film. Not to mention, trying to think in terms of massive three-dimensional structures with tons of moving parts is tough; it's the sort of thing khara would initially work out with the use of 3DCG modeling, I imagine.

Lots of good observations about the pyramid itself, by the way. The pyramid is mostly tangential to this thread, so I don't want to let myself get pulled TOO much deeper for the sake of focus and sanity, I do want to revisit the topic at another time and place, though, and I'll reference your post then.

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Zoop: The origin of the Angels was mentioned in "Connections & Conclusions" here, and followed up on (a bit anemically) in this post. I wouldn't expect anyone to absorb everything in the first go-through, but do take another look when you a chance. I'll respond more later.

--------------------

Silver0706: The full extent of what "Instrumentality" entails in the new movies is still really fuzzy, though I did share some thoughts back here if you missed them.

Your other questions are good ones, and thanks for providing them! I did lay down a very basic version of my current thoughts at the end of this post, but I see how that would come across as a bit of an afterthought, because it kind of was. :lol: I think the real reason I didn't look deeply at the "cycle" aspect, despite my initial plans, was that creating the thread gave me so many things to reconsider from a fresh perspective, I simply didn't feel as ready as I thought I would be. I almost feel like I grasp "the metatextual sense of the cycle" on some kind of intuitive level right now, but putting it into words is another thing completely... I never studied philosophy, either -- :sweatdrop: -- which means I don't have a very expansive vocabulary for a lot of these big, abstract concepts.

That said, though, the things you've asked about do coincide with topics I want to cover in more detail in the future. I'm currently developing a companion analysis to this one, which focuses less on the Adams/Children themselves and more on the "deep conspiracy" that surrounds them. I don't want to give too much away right now, but suffice it to say that the new movies give the audience a lot to unpack about the relationship between past and present.

Do you have any additional thoughts about the things you asked about that you'd be interested in sharing?

--------------------

Sailor Star Dust: Some of the Shinji/Rei stuff was actually supposed to be covered in a follow-up to the "LILITH IS ALSO AN ADAMS" reveal, but, uh.... :sweat: It seems it got a bit lost in the shuffle. At this point, I'm going to do a rewatch to see if anything new pops out at me, and then hopefully I'll write the follow-up like I planned.

Mari's fixation with "smell" is pretty strange, and I do expect it has some "deeper" meaning, since nioi can also refer to an impression, sense, or aura. I need to look at this element again, too. Do you have any thoughts about it?

--------------------

(Part 2 of Playing Catch-up will be coming.)

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:47 pm

Seeing the kind of detail you're finding to analyse in these films, I'm amused to recall how often they have been criticised as lacking depth compared with the series.
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby eldomtom2 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:42 pm

Lore is not what people are talking about when they say that the Rebuilds lack depth.

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:03 pm

Before the tangent that's just been seeded can further develop... This thread is a focused celebration of the interwoven nature of lore, character, and theme; so any general discussion about whether the new films are or are not "deep" belongs somewhere else, like here:

thread/19184/Rebuild-is-shallow-split/

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:49 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Sailor Star Dust: Some of the Shinji/Rei stuff was actually supposed to be covered in a follow-up to the "LILITH IS ALSO AN ADAMS" reveal, but, uh.... :sweat: It seems it got a bit lost in the shuffle. At this point, I'm going to do a rewatch to see if anything new pops out at me, and then hopefully I'll write the follow-up like I planned.


Then I'll just have to look forward to it when it gets here :tongue:

Mari's fixation with "smell" is pretty strange, and I do expect it has some "deeper" meaning, since nioi can also refer to an impression, sense, or aura. I need to look at this element again, too. Do you have any thoughts about it?


Hm, back in the day when 2.0 came out, I figured Mari commenting on Shinji's LCL smell had to do with him being "unique". e.g. Assuming that only Yui's soul was in Eva-01, thus the rest of the Eva units were plain ol' soul-less cyborgs...Excluding whatever weirdness that 2.0 seemed imply with the "True Evangelion" Mark.06 (an Adam(s) ).

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