The idea of a timeloop

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Arcadia's legacy
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:55 am

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:No, the allusions are more than mere coincidence. Why else would the Rebuilds start with a shot of waves when there's no such shot in the original episode 1?

Probably to quickly get across to the audience that something is very very wrong with this setting if the oceans are red
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:18 am

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:No, the allusions are more than mere coincidence.

Do you have any evidence for this other than your own view?

Why else would the Rebuilds start with a shot of waves when there's no such shot in the original episode 1?

How about because they're different stories? A fact which is more and more apparent as the films proceed, but is signalled at the very start precisely by not starting the same. The first film is not simply a remake of episodes 1 to 6 - trying to watch Rebuild as if it's a "version" of the series soon leads to cognitive dissonance.

I am less certain on it being a *literal* time loop, only that there is going to be a connection (in the literal sense) to the original series.

This sounds like preparing to back away from your primary thesis...

Having not seen 3.0+1.0, I cannot speak to how well it serve the themes, though I am doubtful of its quality.

Why the prejudging, unless you have an agenda here?
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:00 am

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:Probably to quickly get across to the audience that something is very very wrong with this setting if the oceans are red

They could have done that in an exact recreation of the original opening.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:How about because they're different stories? A fact which is more and more apparent as the films proceed, but is signalled at the very start precisely by not starting the same. The first film is not simply a remake of episodes 1 to 6 - trying to watch Rebuild as if it's a "version" of the series soon leads to cognitive dissonance.

You could argue that, but then why would they choose to show that it's different by recreating the first shot of the last scene of EoE rather than a completely original shot?

This sounds like preparing to back away from your primary thesis...

My primary thesis is that there's a connection between the original series and the Rebuilds. A time loop seems like a very likely way for this to occur.

Why the prejudging, unless you have an agenda here?

The Rebuilds have not given me reason to be optimistic. What the hell agenda would I have anyway?

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:58 am

A meta comment here:

Where in the world, where in popular culture, did this time-loop meme arise from?

There seems to have been something that I missed in recent decades that spawned things like the Peggy Sue style of fic, and now this. What it is that even makes it a sane thing to broach in a universe of discourse like Evangelion which has no time-hacking shenanigans of its own?
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby ErgoProxy » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:49 am

Meme? In popular culture? I think it's a classical trope from the sci-fi genre. I know it mostly from Philip K. Dick's stories, but Stanisław Lem played with it (to get humorous effects) as well.

It's probably as old as the Einstein's work.
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Silver0706 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:36 am

My feeling is that in the Rebuild there is a cycle independent from NGE, in fact many elements can be explained within the narrative universe of the Rebuild without disturbing NGE (for example: red sea and blood on the Moon caused by the Second Impact). In my opinion the opening scene of Evangelion: 1.0 doesn't mean nothing. Hideaki Anno puts many quotes of other works, such as Ultraman Nexus and Shinji that saves Rei in 2.0, or the music from Karekano and Nadia, and therefore considering that the red sea in the Rebuild is caused by Second Impact, for now I think that it is a best answer. Maybe I'm wrong, and Anno really wants to make a connection with NGE, but I don't know, we have to see the last movie to find out.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:57 am

View Original PostErgoProxy wrote:I think it's a classical trope from the sci-fi genre.
As an avid reader of science fiction over the last 55 years, my experience is that it is a somewhat recherché one, and when it does happen, it's what the story is about, its "one miracle", not an after-market Easter-egg.
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Melkor » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:20 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:A meta comment here:

Where in the world, where in popular culture, did this time-loop meme arise from?

There seems to have been something that I missed in recent decades that spawned things like the Peggy Sue style of fic, and now this. What it is that even makes it a sane thing to broach in a universe of discourse like Evangelion which has no time-hacking shenanigans of its own?


In my first post here in this thread, I made a guess as to why people have latched onto this idea of a time loop so strongly:

View Original PostMelkor wrote:I think part of the reason why some people want to believe that the Rebuilds are part of a time loop so badly is because they just can't accept how bleak and depressing the ending of the End of Evangelion was, so in their heads they try to rectify it by saying it's part of some time loop and that things will be better next time, but there are no do-overs in life. You can (not) redo. All you can do is move on.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:57 pm

I’d prefer it if you didn’t cast aspersions on my motivations. I don’t want a time loop, but to me everything points to it.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Melkor » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:00 pm

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:I’d prefer it if you didn’t cast aspersions on my motivations. I don’t want a time loop, but to me everything points to it.


Key word, I said some people, as in not all of them. Normally I try to avoid making generalized statements about a whole.
Last edited by Melkor on Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby cyharding » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:59 pm

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:The Rebuilds have not given me reason to be optimistic.

I think this statment is the crux of the argument. It seems to me that those who promote the timeloop and similar theories usually have a problem with the films. Either these people either don't like the Rebuilds as they don't compare to NGE in their eyes or are upset that it has replaced NGE to an extant in the forefront of the fandom's mind. To them, connecting Rebuild to NGE is the only way they can justify the time, money and talent that went into production, along with the sense of anticipation for the final installment that is felt among the fandom.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:09 am

You misunderstand me. In my eyes the Rebuilds involving a time loop would be them going back and tainting the original.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:26 am

In which case you should be happy to assume that Anno would not deliberately taint the heritage of his earlier work. And instead of worrying about the thin evidence for a time loop, reassure yourself by looking at the equally or more convincing explanations of that same evidence which don't involve a time loop.
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:45 am

None of the explanations explain why the "evidence" is there though except for a brief line about "homages".

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Silver0706 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:18 am

It's false.

Image

1) Red seas
Movie: 2.0
Shinji: I can't believe that the sea was blue before I was born.
Kaji: We are restoring the environment just so we can live in it. [...] This is the real sea, different from that empty red water. Originally, this world was filled with all kinds of life.
Shinji: I'm glad I came. But Misato-san should had come with us.
Kaji: Katsuragi wouldn't come. Too many memories.
Shinji: Of what?
Kaji: Second Impact.


So, the Rebuild's Second Impact it's cause of red seas. Before the Second Impact the seas were blue and there were more kinds of life.

2) Blood on the Moon
Movie: 2.0
thread/10952/Blood-Staining-the-Moon-Scrapped-Scene/

In the storyboard the Second Impact cause the blood on the Moon. Why Anno cut this scene? Too explicit hint for us about Adam --> 4 Adams?

Image

3) Eva silhouette
Movie: 1.0
If the blood has gone the Moon, maybe one Adams was launched to the moon (Mark.06) and another Adams was launched to Japan (Eva-01).

4) Ship
Movie: 1.0
In opening of 1.0 we see a ship like the one that Asuka destroyed in EoE. Maybe is a homage, maybe it's caused by Second Impact, maybe there is another reason especially because ship in 1.0 it's different from the ship destroyed by Asuka in EoE.

5) Seele monolyths
In NGE there are 5 Seele's members and 12 (15?) monolyths, in Rebuild there are only 7 Seele's monolyths.

6) Nature of Impacts
There are many difference between EoE's Impact and Rebuild's Impacts.

7) Nerv's logo
Movie: 3.0

Image

In the third movie we can see Lilith no head like in EoE, but there are many difference, and above all we can see the NGE Nerv logo. I don't think these are proofs of connection between NGE and Rebuild, maybe Eva3.0 is a different loop/universe compared to Eva2.0 ...

I don't mean that Anno cannot make the connection between NGE and Rebuild (if he wants he can do it, the work is his), but for the moment say that the only explanation is a timeloop between EoE and Rebuild is wrong. There are narrative explanations inside the Rebuild without disturbing NGE. In any case we have to wait for the last film. What will be will be, I think the most important thing is the movie message. Are you afraid that by connecting the Rebuild with NGE a crap will come out?

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:09 pm

There are narrative explanations, perhaps, but again that doesn't explain why they're there in the first place.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Silver0706 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:12 pm

What explanation would you like?
The burden of proof weighs on the shoulders of those who support something, you are saying there is a timeloop between NGE and Rebuild but you don't bring any evidence. Yours is a hypothesis like the others. Similarly, it applies to my hypotheses, and to the hypotheses of others. For the moment are all hypotheses. I wrote some reasons (burden of proof) for the red sea, for the blood on the Moon, etc., but obviously I don't have the certainty that this is the Anno's idea. These are inductive reasoning. We watch out for Russell's turkey.
If you mean that pieces of the puzzle are still missing, okay. For example why Kaworu says "This time, I'll be sure to bring you happiness"? Did he fail last time? Has he already met Shinji in the past? When?
But these mysteries are not necessarily explained by timeloop between Rebuild-NGE, the explanation can also be different, for example timeloop inside Rebuild. Obviously all of us must wait the last movie.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Melkor » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:36 pm

View Original PostSilver0706 wrote:If you mean that pieces of the puzzle are still missing, okay. For example why Kaworu says "This time, I'll be sure to bring you happiness"? Did he fail last time? Has he already met Shinji in the past? When?
But these mysteries are not necessarily explained by timeloop between Rebuild-NGE, the explanation can also be different, for example timeloop inside Rebuild. Obviously all of us must wait the last movie.


If Reichu's theory about Shinji, Asuka, Mari, and Kaworu having the souls of the four Adams turns out to be true, then Kaworu saying that line would make perfect sense if you view it from the perspective of Kaworu and Shinji having known each other in their previous lives as Adams. In fact, this seems to be even more evidence pointing towards that theory being true. For some reason, Kaworu seems to be the only one out of the four who retains memories of his past life

View Original Postcyharding wrote:I think this statment is the crux of the argument. It seems to me that those who promote the timeloop and similar theories usually have a problem with the films. Either these people either don't like the Rebuilds as they don't compare to NGE in their eyes or are upset that it has replaced NGE to an extant in the forefront of the fandom's mind. To them, connecting Rebuild to NGE is the only way they can justify the time, money and talent that went into production, along with the sense of anticipation for the final installment that is felt among the fandom.


This right here is probably the biggest reason why. I've literally seen some people say that if 3.0 + 1.0 does not address or touch on the time loop aspect, then the entire Rebuild series will be trash in their eyes, and therefore not having been worth it solely because of that.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Silver0706 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:15 pm

@Melkor: Yep, I read Reichu's theory some days ago and I asked her somethings about it.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:01 pm

I have to keep repeating this same basic point - Watsonian explanations are not Doylist explanations. You have to explain why so many hints that seem to be pointing to a time loop more than anything else were put in if the actual reason was something completely different.


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