The idea of a timeloop

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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The idea of a timeloop

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:10 am

Could you guys appreciate such a thing? Or do you think even it is too far for a series such as Evangelion?

If such a thing is revealed to be a fact for these movies, would you prefer it to be self contained in these movies or encompassing the original series as well?

And would you be cool if the origin point for the timeloop took place in a continuity we have not seen before? Maybe something we've only read about?
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:36 am

I have a theory regarding a self-contained "cycle" that I hope to share very soon. I've been developing the ideas for a while but the premiere of Avant A is making me move my arse.a little faster...

The trick here is to not take the "story of repetition" quote literally to the point of ignoring its most obvious applications -- that being the repetitive nature of both history and of individual lives. Uncovering a cycle also need look no further than the films' own self-contained mythology. The original series is quite useful as a point of comparison and contrast -- the metatextual link between the two series is intensive -- but the applications so far end there.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby ErgoProxy » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:39 pm

With respect to the Reichu's work, which I still can somehow swallow if it happens to be proper decyphering of Annno's idea...

NO.

Because then it's quite obvious that tesseract intercepted in Q is coming from the future. If so, it opens a horrendous possibilty that we have two Shinjis in the movies and that Q-Shinji is doomed to be shot into the past in Final, because he's merely a product of the timeloop. He would be destined to circle it endlessly, with no possibility to break it or otherwise escape from it, even by his own death which in such circumstances is simply impossible to happen.

I certainly could not be cool with a character i like, trapped like this.
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:46 am

A cycle of repetition is not the same as a timeloop - it can occur without that kind of shenanigans.
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Re: The Eva 3.0+1.0 Title

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Postby eldomtom2 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:22 pm

The time-loop theory is still the strongest to my mind. The series spends far too much time pointing at the differences from the original series for the answer just to be "it's a different series".

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Re: The Eva 3.0+1.0 Title

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:36 pm

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:The time-loop theory is still the strongest to my mind. The series spends far too much time pointing at the differences from the original series for the answer just to be "it's a different series".

Knowing how much other franchises also like to point at past continuities (Godzilla: King of the Monsters did so in spades), i get the impression the majority of these are simply easter eggs for the audience, as well as just reoccurring imagery Anno enjoys using
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Re: The Eva 3.0+1.0 Title

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Postby eldomtom2 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:25 pm

You don't start your reboot series with a duplicate of the first shot of the last scene of your last film just as an easter egg.

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Re: The Eva 3.0+1.0 Title

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:29 pm

Sounds like one to me
Plus, opening on a shot like that is a nice and quick way to establish that something must be very very wrong with the planet Earth if red is the color of her oceans now
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Re: The Eva 3.0+1.0 Title

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Postby Melkor » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:53 pm

I don't get it, why do people want these movies to be part of a time loop so badly? Why can't the Rebuilds just be allowed to stand as their own thing without being linked to the original series in some convoluted way? It's not that strange for a hugely popular series to have multiple timelines and continuities. Just look at how many Gundam has. Do we really need another time loop story? So many anime and manga have already done that to the point that it's almost become a cliche.

What would even be the point of introducing a time loop to the Rebuilds? If Shinji doesn't remember anything from the previous loop, then how is he ever supposed to learn anything? Not only that, but a time loop would completely negate the message Anno was trying to send with End of Evangelion. He was basically telling all the otakus watching to go outside and start living their lives. If the Rebuilds really are a time loop that takes place after End of Evangelion, then that pretty much tells the audience: "Don't like how life is? You don't have to change yourself! Just hit the reset button and everything will be okay!"

That's such an un-Anno-like message, which is why I don't think a time loop is what he's really going for. It would destroy all of the character development Shinji went through in the original series and show that he didn't learn his lesson at all from Instrumentality. Do people really want that? I think part of the reason why some people want to believe that the Rebuilds are part of a time loop so badly is because they just can't accept how bleak and depressing the ending of the End of Evangelion was, so in their heads they try to rectify it by saying it's part of some time loop and that things will be better next time, but there are no do-overs in life. You can (not) redo. All you can do is move on.
Last edited by Melkor on Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 16 times in total.

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Re: The Eva 3.0+1.0 Title

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:13 pm

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:You don't start your reboot series with a duplicate of the first shot of the last scene of your last film just as an easter egg.

It's not just an Easter Egg, but it's not what you think it is, either. The red oceans have had a concrete in-universe explanation since Eva 2.0 at least (the VERY FIRST MOVIE actually hinted quite strongly at the reason they existed), and what is basically the final stronghold of loopers, Kaworu's weird lines in the first two movies, have finally been explained basically the same way as everything else (by diving into the specifics of Second Impact). If you're not even a little interested in NTE's unique lore, fine, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:49 am

It may have a "lore" explanation, but that doesn't explain why they're there in the first place. Either Anno planned for a time loop and then scrapped the idea or the "lore" explanations are partially a red herring.

And I don't want a time loop, in fact I want the Rebuilds to stay as far away from the original series as possible, but it's the simplest explanation for all the details (and especially the title) and doesn't involve assuming they'd base the title of the 3.0+1.0 on the notoriously unplanned and unimportant lore.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:49 am

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:It may have a "lore" explanation, but that doesn't explain why they're there in the first place.

I'm not sure if i'm following the logic here
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:39 am

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:I'm not sure if i'm following the logic here


Why Anno decided to put the concept in the script in the first place.
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:37 am

Put which concept?
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:18 am

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:It may have a "lore" explanation, but that doesn't explain why they're there in the first place. Either Anno planned for a time loop and then scrapped the idea or the "lore" explanations are partially a red herring.

Talk about your false dichotomies!

notoriously unplanned and unimportant lore.

This just has "arguing in bad faith" written all over it.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:24 pm

Where is the false dichotomy? What reason is there to have all these "oo-look-at-this-thing-that's-different-from-the-original-series" moments if not to hint at something beyond simple changes to the plot?

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:00 pm

There's plenty of reasons, and if you played Devil's Advocate with yourself honestly, or even just listened to what other people have been saying here and for years upon years in threads like this one, you could certainly think of some. It's a false dichotomy because you impose restrictions based on your own limited sense of what Must Be.

The power of personal perspective is the power to change the world, "Eva" might say. Because the world is only as you let yourself perceive it, in a lot of ways.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:20 pm

What is the point of creating explicit allusions to the original series if they're setting up unrelated plot points? Answer this instead of making vague comments about "the power of personal perspective".

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:19 am

Something being similar to a previous version of a story is not necessarily an allusion; it can can perfectly well be simply just that - similar. And the reason may be no more than that the same artist often continues using some of the same techniques - maybe even with a deliberate wink!

Consider the case of someone who has only watched the films and doesn't know the series - there are plenty of them. How many of the so-called time-loop clues now have any substance to them when seen in isolation? Precious few, I'd say, and those have been found to have perfectly possible in-universe explanations.

Trying to find a link for a few similarities also brings the burden of finding equally convincing explanations, if it is a time-loop, for the much larger number of differences. Things like: do the Evas have mothers' souls in them? and other non-trivial differences of the underlying lore. Check out how many and how great these are, and then think about whether you really want to.

Finally, what does a time-loop add to the story telling? Anything at all? I'd say no, and that trying to make it significant means diverting oneself from the actual themes of the story and weakening one's experience of it.
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:59 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Something being similar to a previous version of a story is not necessarily an allusion; it can can perfectly well be simply just that - similar. And the reason may be no more than that the same artist often continues using some of the same techniques - maybe even with a deliberate wink!

No, the allusions are more than mere coincidence. Why else would the Rebuilds start with a shot of waves when there's no such shot in the original episode 1?

Consider the case of someone who has only watched the films and doesn't know the series - there are plenty of them. How many of the so-called time-loop clues now have any substance to them when seen in isolation? Precious few, I'd say, and those have been found to have perfectly possible in-universe explanations.

Yes, but I don't see the point of talking about hypothetical viewers who haven't seen the original. There are such for every sequel.

Trying to find a link for a few similarities also brings the burden of finding equally convincing explanations, if it is a time-loop, for the much larger number of differences. Things like: do the Evas have mothers' souls in them? and other non-trivial differences of the underlying lore. Check out how many and how great these are, and then think about whether you really want to.

I am less certain on it being a *literal* time loop, only that there is going to be a connection (in the literal sense) to the original series. If there is a time loop, there are any number of explanations as to how things ended up different.

Finally, what does a time-loop add to the story telling? Anything at all? I'd say no, and that trying to make it significant means diverting oneself from the actual themes of the story and weakening one's experience of it.

That would be a question to ask Anno. Having not seen 3.0+1.0, I cannot speak to how well it serve the themes, though I am doubtful of its quality.


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