Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby Pathetic. » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:15 am

In EoE we see Asuka bleeding heavily from her eye and the blood is sinking, but I can't recall any other scenes from the series where someone bleeds inside an entry plug. In 1.11 Shinji bleeds inside the plug but the blood floats around him like in water. Anyone know if there's any more scenes where people bleed inside the evas?

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Re: Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:19 am

View Original PostPathetic. wrote:In EoE we see Asuka bleeding heavily from her eye and the blood is sinking, but I can't recall any other scenes from the series where someone bleeds inside an entry plug. In 1.11 Shinji bleeds inside the plug but the blood floats around him like in water. Anyone know if there's any more scenes where people bleed inside the evas?

There are some fairly ancient (by internet standards) conversations trying to piece this together. Some have argued that LCL goes through some sort of phase change to be consistent as air, and that's how our wiki article reads, but as far as I'm concerned, things like the blood pouring out of Asuka's eye socket in End of Eva, or Rei's tears dripping down from her eyes in episode 23 are merely story beats or visuals that they wanted to have, and either didn't think of or care that it violated the in-universe mechanics.
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Re: Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:14 pm

There is some possible verification for phase-changing LCL as of Q, by way of the "LCL Gas" that gets pumped into the Wunder's anchoring plug. It's a different continuity from NGE, so is of limited use in that regard, but it's certainly evocative and shows that the idea of LCL changing state is something the creators have thought about, even if they haven't made it obvious until very recently. In NGE, LCL was always rather mysterious and more than it seemed at first glance, with its identity being redefined multiple times until it's no longer really clear WHAT it is. The ability to exhibit gas-like properties would probably be one of the LESS weird things about it, honestly.

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Re: Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby Pathetic. » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:49 am

View Original PostThe Eva Monkey wrote:There are some fairly ancient (by internet standards) conversations trying to piece this together. Some have argued that LCL goes through some sort of phase change to be consistent as air, and that's how our wiki article reads, but as far as I'm concerned, things like the blood pouring out of Asuka's eye socket in End of Eva, or Rei's tears dripping down from her eyes in episode 23 are merely story beats or visuals that they wanted to have, and either didn't think of or care that it violated the in-universe mechanics.


I'm just curious because I want to know details about Asuka's death. If it's just story beats then she shouldn't have the bandages in one more final, unless that's just ignored to show more clearly that this Asuka is the real deal. In my opinion she didn't die from any real injuries, but instead from the shock that came with experiencing all of 02's pain. Seeing as she just realized how her mother always loved her, the synch ratio must be insane.
As for Rei's tears, LCL is described as a kind of primordial soup. That means it's extremely rich in nutrients and all that, which tears just aren't. The tears should absolutely be rising or at least floating in place.

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Re: Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:10 am

View Original PostPathetic. wrote:In my opinion she didn't die from any real injuries, but instead from the shock that came with experiencing all of 02's pain. Seeing as she just realized how her mother always loved her, the synch ratio must be insane.

We actually see Asuka receive a head injury, and we also see her arm split in half right as Eva-02's does. Real injuries from two spears. There's no reason to think the remaining seven didn't have a similar effect. An "insane sync ratio", incidentally, points toward the pilot receiving actual physical trauma. (Shinji in the very second episode demonstrates that the bar for feeling the Eva's pain intensely isn't that high.) The name "synchronization" isn't just for show -- both Eva and pilot are in a feedback loop where they affect each other. Combine the risks of synchronization with a weapon as potent as the Spear of Longinus. Even the replicas retain the original's ability to tear through an A.T. Field like it's nothing.

As for Rei's tears, LCL is described as a kind of primordial soup.

It's a bit more specific than that.

Episode 20 wrote:Misato:
In other words, Shinji has shifted into a form we can't see?

IBUKI:
Yes, the composition of the LCL inside the plug has chemically altered
into something very similar to the sea water of primitive Earth.

Misato:
A soup of life, huh?

RITSUKO:
All of the substances which composed Shinji are still preserved in the plug,
and what could be called his soul exists there as well.

In other words,

Entry Plug LCL + Dissolved Shinji = Soup of Life

This is rather confusing in light of EoE, since we directly see people dissolve into a substance visually indistinguishable from the amber-colored stuff the plugs get filled with. So why are we told that the LCL had to be "chemically altered" to become like primordial soup? Something to think about...

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Re: Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby Pathetic. » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:16 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:In other words,

Entry Plug LCL + Dissolved Shinji = Soup of Life

This is rather confusing in light of EoE, since we directly see people dissolve into a substance visually indistinguishable from the amber-colored stuff the plugs get filled with. So why are we told that the LCL had to be "chemically altered" to become like primordial soup? Something to think about...


So basically, LCL doesn't become nutrient soup until someone dissolves into it?

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Re: Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:20 am

View Original PostPathetic.#885909 wrote:So basically, LCL doesn't become nutrient soup until someone dissolves into it?

Yes, that seems to be the implication. I assume that means that LCL is less primordial soup in and of itself than it is a reliable medium for fostering biomolecule creation and stability. Before the idea of it being "primordial soup" was introduced, LCL was a more straightforward analogue for amniotic fluid -- something that protects and helps nurture a developing life. I guess it never really STOPPED being that.

Though I still really want to know: if biochemicals are something IN ADDITION to basic LCL, what the heck is LCL? (Probably something like "liquid soul" as lame as that sounds...)

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Re: Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby Protohipster » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:21 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Yes, that seems to be the implication. I assume that means that LCL is less primordial soup in and of itself than it is a reliable medium for fostering biomolecule creation and stability. Before the idea of it being "primordial soup" was introduced, LCL was a more straightforward analogue for amniotic fluid -- something that protects and helps nurture a developing life. I guess it never really STOPPED being that.

Though I still really want to know: if biochemicals are something IN ADDITION to basic LCL, what the heck is LCL? (Probably something like "liquid soul" as lame as that sounds...)

Isn't LCL just the blood of Lilith? Given that the entry plugs filled with LCL are meant to represent wombs, it'd be synonymous to a woman's belly only becoming a womb once a fetus is growing within it. The blood of Lilith nurtures life, but isn't life itself.

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Re: Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:00 am

Lilith bleeds LCL, but that is not all that LCL is. We also see it escape from beneath Leliel's body (a pretty huge hint); Eva cores are filled with it; and in EoE it's revealed there's another plane of existence called the Sea of LCL (which is the "spiritual world" where HIP takes place). In effect, LCL comes from "somewhere else", and Lilith's body is one possible gate. The Dirac Sea inside Leliel is another; Eva cores seem to be yet another.

This doesn't cancel out the womb symbolism, BTW, and instead supplements it, since the Sea of LCL is treated as the ultimate cosmic womb.

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Postby Protohipster » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:10 am

Thanks for the clarification, I'm unsure if Lilith's womb is a portal to a cosmic womb, however. The destruction of the black moon in EoE, which is symbolic of Lilith's womb, since she absorbs souls within it, is symbolic of the rejection of the womb, but humanity's continued existence is guaranteed without Lilith's womb, showing that souls are also sourced from places outside of Lilith's womb (I don't know of any indications within Eva that there are fixed amounts of souls). Leilel and Lilith both have wombs of LCL within them, but that amount of LCL is limited, indicating that they have their own wombs -- otherwise, if they were connected to a "cosmic womb", Lilith and Leilel would both endlessly spurt blood. Their wombs can be the same substance as the "cosmic womb" but are ultimately distinguished/limited, backed by how Lilith governs the entirety of humanity during instrumentality after absorbing their souls. Unless Lilith is the ultimate God, it doesn't make sense for her to be able to govern humanity in a realm separate from her control that she provides access to

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Re: Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:29 pm

There's a pretty basic primer on this LCL weirdness and its place within NGE's cosmology is below if you're interested. The relevant series of posts isn't contiguous, so make you go to the end. Lots of pictures, so does a much better job of illustrating the points than words alone will.

post/229844/EoE-Instrumentality-101/#229844

Further discussion of related concepts is here.

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Re: Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby Pathetic. » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:52 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Lilith bleeds LCL, but that is not all that LCL is. We also see it escape from beneath Leliel's body (a pretty huge hint); Eva cores are filled with it; and in EoE it's revealed there's another plane of existence called the Sea of LCL (which is the "spiritual world" where HIP takes place). In effect, LCL comes from "somewhere else", and Lilith's body is one possible gate. The Dirac Sea inside Leliel is another; Eva cores seem to be yet another.

This doesn't cancel out the womb symbolism, BTW, and instead supplements it, since the Sea of LCL is treated as the ultimate cosmic womb.


I'm more than certain that Leliel's acid tang isn't LCL, we clearly see 00 walking through the lake of LCL without any pain or damage in episode 22. If you're referring to the blood that sprays when 01 breaks out of Leliel, all angel blood is either blue or red and clearly a different shade from LCL.

As for the Sea of LCL being Lilith's womb, I disagree. I believe that the Chamber of Guf is Lilith's womb, seeing as all human souls were stored there before she created humanity. To further support that theory we see the vaginas on GNR's palms with the mention of the Doors of Guf being open once again.

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Re: Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:10 am

You're not only "certain" but "more than certain" that this

Image

isn't LCL? I think that's a bit too much certainty to have about about such a briefly seen, wholly mysterious detail attached to such an incredibly mind-blowing Angel. I'd recommend following the link in the post I made right above this one, just in case... The argument is laid out there and it's easier and more economical for you to just click the thing than for me to repost it all.

(BTW, the only "acid" we ever deal with is Matarael's tears. There is no possible basis upon which to decide that the stuff spraying out of Leliel is "acidic", any more than you could call it alkaline.)

I never claim that the Sea of LCL is "Lilith's womb". I said "ultimate cosmic womb", which is... not the same thing, at all.

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Re: Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:37 am

View Original PostProtohipster wrote:Thanks for the clarification, I'm unsure if Lilith's womb is a portal to a cosmic womb, however.


For the record, the use of the Black Moon as a womb just ties in with the motherhood and life symbolism that's a huge part of Evangelion. It's never established that Lilith has a literal biological womb, and the idea of her literally gestating the bases of life inside her seems kind of... silly.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:48 am

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:It's never established that Lilith has a literal biological womb

Does it really have to be? In NGE, implication tends to be more than enough (not to mention all you are ever going to get). LCL continues to seep from between Lilith's legs even after the Spear is removed and the pierce wounds are shown instantaneously closing. Implied further by the development of a large pregnant-looking belly after the phallic DNA-shaped Spear is stuck into her and then pulled out... if you, uh, follow my drift here.

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Re: Is blood heavier than LCL?

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Postby Pathetic. » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:01 am

Oh damn, I didn't recall that scene happening. Ignore my bad memory, then. I also confused Matarael with Leliel when it comes to the acid.


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