Was Yui nearly as bad as Gendo?

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Was Yui nearly as bad as Gendo?

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Postby PiersM » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:48 pm

Hi all!

Something that's been bugging me the more I think about it are Yui's motives. There is, iirc, an article regarding this on the wiki but wondered if anybody had fresh input.

It's mostly from the fact that whilst she exhibits paternal, protective instincts for Shinji — from death, namely, EoE presents a really twisted perspective on things. Presumably everything Unit 01 does, outside of Shinji's, is her control right? If so the things she puts Shinji through absolutely horrifies him and ultimately it's to drift off into space as an eternal relic of mankind. That's not very mother-like. Wouldn't she want Shinji to be safe and happy?

Weirdest of all is…wouldn't this only happen if Shinji rejected instrumentality? Yui never really expresses much emotion beyond being eerily content, like she knows everything is falling to her plan (not unlike Gendo, albeit his outlook is cold and bitter) — it's a little jarring that the final 'meeting' Shinji has with her, and the first and final line is "Will you be all right, my love?"

Shinji's drifting off to a world that's quite literally FUBAR, he could (may?) die of starvation. Nobody may be there to accompany him, until it's Asuka.

It makes me question if she honestly cared for her son beyond giving him a decision on mankind's fate, which given Shinji's busted rationality then (doubled with Asuka Twitter-raging him in the pre-instrumentality bit) is just about the worst idea ever. That isn't right.

Are there lines in NGE that suggest she earnestly cares for Shinji otherwise, and I'm interpreting this in the wrong manner? Or did the 'secret' meeting with Fyutsuki literally explain everything she intended from start to finish? (Given that part is near the end, wondering if that was intended to be the biggest revelation of sorts.)

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Postby Sachi » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:11 pm

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:04 pm

Ultimately NGE and Rebuild are both studies of Shinji’s states of mind. The motivations of those who cause him mental trouble are unimportant, and only need to be clear enough to allow the surrounding story to work adequately.

In my post-Q fic I have Shinji conclude that both his parents were deluded or mad, but that one was more dangerous than the other.
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Postby viperzero » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:36 pm

A lot of what Yui does seems to only make sense if 3I is inevitable, which from her dialog seems to be the case (Or at least she seems to think it is) so as horrifying as 3I is, I think thats the best she could do. It had to happen and thats the least awful way. anyway her stated actions seem to be to make the world safe for her son. I don't think much else she does really makes any sense without that. Why give him the control? If he was just a pawn why not control of 3I herself? why does her copy Rei have motherly feelings for Shinji? don't the shows creators want to associate the two? It might be questionable why take him as a young child to the contact experiment but it seems to be important later in the show that Shinji seems to have an unconscious familiarity with Eva 01. At worst I see it as a poor parenting decision (would a young Shinji even know she was "Killed") my $.02

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Postby Sachi » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:00 am

Here's a perspective that may or may not be relavent;

What if as a parent, you feel a tremendous amount of weight of responsibility for your kid, and to the best of your ability, you try to provide them with the proper tools that you feel they need to live.

Now, what if your world view also leaves you very concerned with the direction of your community, or society, or even humanity as a whole, which you recognize are all dictated by powerful yet corruptable forces such as politics, economics, religion, whatever.

And perhaps you yourself are a paranoid fanatic that believes in an inevitable suffering in the near future that your child will no doubt have to suffer through thanks to the influences of other powers.

And finally what if you also believe also you are in a position of influence to subvert these powers that be, and you use that perceived advantage to influence a series of events that may be very challenging for your kid, but in your eyes will ultimately teach and benefit them in the long run..

..according to your world view.

This sounds like any parent to me, really.
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Re: Was Yui nearly as bad as Gendo?

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Postby PiersM » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:48 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Here's a perspective that may or may not be relavent;

What if as a parent, you feel a tremendous amount of weight of responsibility for your kid, and to the best of your ability, you try to provide them with the proper tools that you feel they need to live.

Now, what if your world view also leaves you very concerned with the direction of your community, or society, or even humanity as a whole, which you recognize are all dictated by powerful yet corruptable forces such as politics, economics, religion, whatever.

And perhaps you yourself are a paranoid fanatic that believes in an inevitable suffering in the near future that your child will no doubt have to suffer through thanks to the influences of other powers.

And finally what if you also believe also you are in a position of influence to subvert these powers that be, and you use that perceived advantage to influence a series of events that may be very challenging for your kid, but in your eyes will ultimately teach and benefit them in the long run..

..according to your world view.

This sounds like any parent to me, really.

You're right, that's a good perspective — think it was implied (??) that Seele were after Yui, and might be why she never came 'out' of Unit 01, in terms of corruptible forces. Maybe her long term goal was also to get Seele out of the picture, particularly how seemingly old their committee was.
Even then, she still leaves Shinji in a world that's in an incredibly bad state. The one possible up-swing is that the manga portrayed the Earth as being back to a healthy form, and so it could possibly be the case there (If her explanation that all life returning with an AT Field isn't exclusive to humans). Then again, the manga also transitions from quasi-dream state right to present day — and Shinji partially looses his memory.

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Re: Was Yui nearly as bad as Gendo?

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:48 pm

The combination of "paranoid fanatic" and "position of influence" doesn't sound like just "any parent" to me!
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Postby Sachi » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:13 pm

Sure it does. All people hold positions of influence in one way or another, and this is especially true of the parent, who influences their child's upbringing, the institutions they're sent to, etc. Note also that I was careful with my words by clarifying that they "believe" to be in a position of influence, regardless of how true that may be.

By paranoia, I'm furthering the premise that parents feel a weight or responsibility for their child's future, and how many parents are frightened of the future their child will have to endure, and they look to see to what extent they can influence this for the better, in spite of the world. Again, they look for ways in which they believe they have influence over this.
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Re: Was Yui nearly as bad as Gendo?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:34 am

More enlightened parents seek to prepare their children to handle whatever the world might throw at them (they can't anticipate what will come after they are gone). They do not selfishly attempt to modify the world for the convenience of their children (though they may, for instance if politically minded, attempt to improve it for everyone).
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Re: Was Yui nearly as bad as Gendo?

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:50 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:More enlightened parents seek to prepare their children to handle whatever the world might throw at them. They do not selfishly attempt to modify the world for the convenience of their children
Indeed. It is generally wisest to seek primarily not to change the world itself to be easier to handle or deal with, but instead to change one's self to become strong enough to to handle and deal with the world. That is the more effective and healthy way to approach things, and as a parent it's especially imperative to realize this and to let one's children fail, get back up, experience things for themselves, and find their own way. Otherwise, they're doomed to much worse failure. hardship, and an inability to cope with reality than any of the short term failures and hardships that all parents wish they could protect their children from having to endure.

Regarding the OP, I feel it's rather short sighted to see remaining in the Eva for all of time to be eternal proof of humanity's existence as her ultimate final goal, it was simply one that among many. Her largest goal was saving humanity as a whole (to remain as individual people) and to remove the looming threat of any future impacts or Angel attacks for her progeny and the rest of humanity, while choosing ultimately to remain in the Eva in the process of that (which her plan for it all pretty much required it anyway). To remain in the Eva, given it was required to successfully achieve her desire for her son and humanity's future survival was more of a sacrifice she made rather than something she really seemed to desire and lust after as a goal.

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Postby ShonHam » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:30 am

I'd say that her actions overrule her original motivations (ie. reforming the world itself for Shinji with disregard for others besides him), therefore I'd say she can't necessarily be considered 'good'. That being said, she does show genuine parental care for Shinji, albeit a slightly twisted sense of care as she did put him through traumatic experiences. I have to say, I'd put Yui above Gendo - but she's by no stretch an angel. (no pun intended)
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Postby Bhorium » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:50 am

I'd say that regardless of everything else, her apparent decision to throw Asuka under the bus in EoE, by all appearances for the purpose of breaking Shinji further mentally, does undeniably paint her in a bit of a ruthless light.
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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:28 pm

I feel like Yui is the "scientist" aspect of the "three faces of mother" whereas Rei (via her soul within Eva 00) is "woman" and Kyoko is "mother."

Think about it symbolically...Like the Biblical Eve, Yui was the "first" to go taste the fruit (CE) and seek knowledge...SEELE even says "knowledge is power"

Thus, I think all the pretense Yui puts on about doing things for Shinji's sake is a sham...Her ambitions to know about the Seeds/Angels/Evas and the power she could (and would) attain is her prime motivator in my opinion. Shinji is essentially just another tool to her, just like Gendo...
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Re: Was Yui nearly as bad as Gendo?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:48 pm

View Original PostSawItAtAge10 wrote:I feel like Yui is the "scientist" aspect of the "three faces of mother" whereas Rei (via her soul within Eva 00) is "woman" and Kyoko is "mother."

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. This is clearly a reference to Naoko's programming schematic for the MAGI, in which Naoko -- a single human -- embodies all three qualities. Why are you then taking this schematic and trying to squeeze three completely separate characters, who don't even form a coherent triad (i.e., in no way are Yui, Rei, and Kyoko presented as three pieces of one whole), into it? Yui, like Naoko, embodies Mother, Woman, and Scientist herself. So does Kyoko.

If any triad here works at all, it would be Yui, Kyoko, and Naoko, since they are the three scientist mothers of NGE, but even there it would be difficult to know what to emphasize with each character. Naoko's weakest aspect is her maternal one; woman and scientist are equally strong. Yui's aspect as a woman gets little attention (the hints of Fuyutsuki's attraction to her are basically the extent of it); her maternal side gets greatest emphasis, followed by her scientific aspect. Kyoko is difficult, as most of the emphasis is on her maternal side, but it's two-faced: either her work or her insanity makes her a negligent (if not abusive) mother, or having the 'maternal part' of her soul ripped apart from the rest results in a pure expression of love that would probably not be possible if she were complete.

I honestly think it's best to avoid pigeonholing the characters wherever possible and just not try to force them into schemes like this arbitrarily.

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:54 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:I honestly think it's best to avoid pigeonholing the characters wherever possible and just not try to force them into schemes like this arbitrarily.



You're probably right..But it does still strike me that Shinji just seemed like Yui's plot coupon as far getting the things she wants...Of course, assuming power and knowledge were her aim. Gendo's motivations are made clear...he's hung up on her. Fiyutski is hopelessly in love with her.

And Yui's connection to Kiel and Seele is so dark as far as what we don't know about it (Almost as blank as Second Impact ;) ). At one point I had this idea that her connection to Kiel could be almost paternal, but there simply isn't any evidence...

I dunno, I just get the feeling that Yui was projecting an image, similar to how Misato puts on a front at Nerf HQ and then is totally in her element and her apartment, of a saintly mother in order to gain support for what she was doing.

I just can't buy that she was this much of sweet lady with noble intentions - to write her off as just that not only makes her a Mary Sue, but it's also antithetical to how human nature is presented in NGE.

I guess I'm looking for more depth where none is being provided despite clues in the series about what people present as "themselves" vs. who they really are. Of course that kind of duality could be boiled down to simply: Yui - as a normal, human mother vs. Eva 01 - the war beast child of a space goddess. It could go either way I suppose.

It's odd too that Yui and Gendo's "relationship" is just as mysterious as Misato + Kaji's (another black box). Anyway, I think I'm rambling at this point. Lol
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Postby one-eyed » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:14 am

I doubt I'll ever be able to find a character I deem as evil as I see Gendo.

Initially, I believed Yui was "defective" because she had "too much kindness for a Eva character", but then I realized that this impression was because of the unreliable narrator that we have about her. We know almost nothing about Yui and that little we know comes from an absolutely untrustworthy source, Fuyutsuki, who idolized her. We do not even have a her scene with Gendo at the same time and the only interaction between them is in EoE, where Gendo can be seeing and hearing only what he wants, as well as Maya, Aoba and Fuyutsuki.

The popular wisdom say that very intelligent people do not think like most of Humanity, and for the absolutely brilliant and incredibly eccentric people I have known, I certainly believe it; however, it was not even that, her purpose and nature was fundamentally different.

Yui is disconcertingly alien. She sought to transform herself into an inhuman being — not just a transformation, but an apotheosis. She wanted to remake herself as a Eldricht Abomination, an otherworldly entity with power that surpasses even the gods and wishes to become the tombstone / memorial of all humankind. Nothing short of madness can adequately explain this all-consuming desire.

Abandoning her son, husband and humanity for something so abstract is beyond me, especially knowing the kind of creature that Gendo was, and it would have been better to throw Shinji into a garbage disposal than leave him in the hands of Gendo started to gave me the feeling of wrongness, it eventually turns out that, while not exactly sociopathic or malicious, she is generally too out of synch with the world for conventional ideas of morality to it make much sense to her. Yui probably was not the kind of person who could be described in terms of "good" or "evil", she follows a kind of Blue and Orange Morality that only makes sense to herself or maybe Anno has given her an Omniscient Morality License: she can do anything to the characters and still be considered one of the good guys because she know it will turn out okay, regardless of the seeming randomness of chance and choices made, but I doubt that Anno even thought about it. I think he just left her a vague character because she's a plot device and nothing more, and we're obsessed with completing the gaps.

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Postby HeisokuNoKakudai » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:25 pm

View Original PostBhorium wrote:I'd say that regardless of everything else, her apparent decision to throw Asuka under the bus in EoE, by all appearances for the purpose of breaking Shinji further mentally, does undeniably paint her in a bit of a ruthless light.

I'm probably just forgetting something obvious, but how does she throw Asuka under the bus in EoE?

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:54 am

By not breaking out of the Bakelite sooner, thus preventing Shinji going to help her in time to possibly make a difference.

You could argue that Shinji's own reluctance had caused enough delay for it to make no further difference, but I'd say it can be seen either way.
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Postby ZQFMGB » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:20 am

Hum... maybe it was really hard to break it and she managed to do it only after Asuka's death ?
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Re: Was Yui nearly as bad as Gendo?

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:11 am

View Original PostZQFMGB wrote:Hum... maybe it was really hard to break it and she managed to do it only after Asuka's death ?

No, I think Yui could have broken out sooner if she wanted. She waited till it was too late to save Asuka so she'd be out of the way and Shinji could begin instrumentality as broken as possible making his will easier to bend to her own ends.
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