Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 02, 2018 9:16 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:@ DarkBluePhoenix: This has been effectively ruled out by the Mark.09's full appellation. As BlueBasilisk mentioned, the Mark.09 is called the FIRST Adams' Vessel, implying there are or were others. Also take note that Mark.09 is repeatedly called "Adams' Vessel" in the film, but when Eva-13 awakens, it's just called an "Adam(s)". This doesn't make much sense unless two different concepts are being referred to. Mark.09 is clearly related to the Adams in some way, but it is not an Adam(s) per se.


Well, technically Unit-13 is also called a "Surviving Adam" (best way of translating "Adams no Ikinokori that preserves the meaning, since "Adams' Survivor" sounds more like a person who survived Second Impact to Anglophone ears) which could either just mean it's still functioning or suggest at least one of the Adams did not survive. Again, more context needed.

Either side though, you're right that the differing terminology rules out Mark.09 as an Adam, though the exact connection to the Wunder remains hazy.

Well, you say "nobody", but I post stuff like this (post linked to earlier):

"Thing You Quoted"

...and it just gets ignored. If nothing else, it's proof that fanwanking using the surface level meaning is possible. People are just unwilling to do it. For some reason. :???:


Probably because people think of Evangelion as this onion of a show where the surface layer exists solely for the story's sake and holds no actual meaning. Or something like that.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 02, 2018 11:32 pm

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:Well, technically Unit-13 is also called a "Surviving Adam" (best way of translating "Adams no Ikinokori that preserves the meaning, since "Adams' Survivor" sounds more like a person who survived Second Impact to Anglophone ears) which could either just mean it's still functioning or suggest at least one of the Adams did not survive. Again, more context needed.

"One of the surviving Adams" is how we translated it for the github fan translation way back.

https://github.com/eva3/Evangelion--3.0 ... RANSLATION

Probably because people think of Evangelion as this onion of a show where the surface layer exists solely for the story's sake and holds no actual meaning. Or something like that.

We're talking about the kinds of Evangelion fans who pay attention to the world-building elements with the intention of crafting explanations, though.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 02, 2018 11:45 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:"One of the surviving Adams" is how we translated it for the github fan translation way back.

https://github.com/eva3/Evangelion--3.0 ... RANSLATION


That was more an aside than directed at you. And I didn't know how it was translated for subs since I usually just watch raws.

We're talking about the kinds of Evangelion fans who pay attention to the world-building elements with the intention of crafting explanations, though.


And those fans have a history of returning with some... Interesting answers to some of these ideas.

And again, Eva 3.33 is really lacking in world building details and about 90% of what various characters know is not articulated for the viewer. Eventually people come up with weird answers to fill in the gaps.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu May 03, 2018 12:12 am

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:That was more an aside than directed at you. And I didn't know how it was translated for subs since I usually just watch raws.

And those fans have a history of returning with some... Interesting answers to some of these ideas.

And again, Eva 3.33 is really lacking in world building details and about 90% of what various characters know is not articulated for the viewer. Eventually people come up with weird answers to fill in the gaps.

In the funimation release, Mari says it "must be a straggler Adam." Different wording but the implication is basically the same.

And I don't think the lack of worldbuilding is something unique to this incarnation of Eva, especially where this kind of stuff is concerned. NGE just name dropped Lilith on you in Episode 24 and didn't follow up on any of that until EoE, but even then they don't really tell you a whole lot about her or what she is. Adam and Lilith were both mystery boxes that weren't explored in any sort of depth until the Classified Information
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Thu May 03, 2018 12:16 am

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:In the funimation release, Mari says it "must be a straggler Adam." Different wording but the implication is basically the same.

And I don't think the lack of worldbuilding is something unique to this incarnation of Eva, especially where this kind of stuff is concerned. NGE just name dropped Lilith on you in Episode 24 and didn't follow up on any of that until EoE, but even then they don't really tell you a whole lot about her or what she is. Adam and Lilith were both mystery boxes that weren't explored in any sort of depth until the Classified Information


I've seen the dub. The problem with Straggler as a translation is it can give the impression it's not one of the original four, but a fifth one that only just showed up (since straggler usually refers to something that's fallen behind a group).

And NGE didn't explore Adam or Lilith much, but 3.33 has an entire 14-year time skip with tons of events having happened off screen and many changes to the world and people that are never really looked at in meaningful detail.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu May 03, 2018 1:30 am

^I think she called it that in Kanemitsu's home release subs too. I don't have my copy nearby to check but that's what it said on the notes I took when I first got it.

It does, yes, but it also has another quarter of the narrative left to go to explore any of those things as several of them are pertinent to Shinji's situation, plus any supplementary material that follows the movie for the rest. I've heard it theorized that 3.33 might have been missing its part d so it could have been in that as well. I'm looking at it just in terms of the Eva/Godly stuff since that's what the thread is relating to.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Thu May 03, 2018 7:30 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:@ DarkBluePhoenix: This has been effectively ruled out by the Mark.09's full appellation. As BlueBasilisk mentioned, the Mark.09 is called the FIRST Adams' Vessel, implying there are or were others. Also take note that Mark.09 is repeatedly called "Adams' Vessel" in the film, but when Eva-13 awakens, it's just called an "Adam(s)". This doesn't make much sense unless two different concepts are being referred to. Mark.09 is clearly related to the Adams in some way, but it is not an Adam(s) per se.

So the Mark.09 is the living embodiment of one of the Adam's (or all of the Adam's) souls(s), similar to how Kaworu in the show was the reincarnation/vessel of Adam. Having Adam's soul would probably make it able to operate the Wunder in a similar fashion to Unit-01, as stated in the movie, which supports this assumption. I also wonder about the meanings of the designations given to the EVAs, switching between "Unit-##" and "Mark.##" must also hold some kind of significance.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Thu May 03, 2018 9:58 am

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Maybe the Mark.09 is the fourth Adam that has yet to be accounted for when you factor in the other three we are aware of (Unit-01, Unit-13, and Mark.06).

I'm sure I remember reading about this somewhere probably on here, and it makes sense, seeing as how Gendo is now having to use the still unexplained Key of Nebuchadnezzar in place of embryonic Adam, but when were Unit 01 and Mark.06 confirmed Adams? I totally get Unit 13, it was straight up called a straggler Adam by Mari, and Mark.06 kinda makes sense, seeing as how it turned white upon fusing with Lilith's corpse and was able to contain an Angel presumably without an AT Field, but Unit 01 I don't get. Her Awakening is much different than Unit 13's, despite undergoing the same basic procedure (having the pilot's emotions overwhelm his logical thinking, and then fusing with an Angel's core). Unit 13 completely skips over the Pseudo Evolution phase and goes straight into Awakening upon Angel core fusion, despite Shinji being just as emotionally fucked. Sure, her eyes turn red, but that seems more like a result of Shinji shutting out Kaworu's controls (a very literal way of pushing away someone trying to help you). Am I stupid, did I miss something huge?
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Thu May 03, 2018 10:08 am

Unit-01 being an Adam was never explicitly stated, but the similarities between it and Unit-13 and the fact it looks very similar to the "Three-Eyed" Adam led to people making that conclusion.

Also Mark.06 turned white because it merged with the white Lilith.

Also, re:numbering, note that Unit-13's Japanese name is slightly different than the others, being written as "Dai13gouki" instead of just "13gouki", making it "Thirteenth Number Machine" instead of "Thirteen Number Machine". I don't know if that's meant for make it special or just to make the name clear when spoken aloud and not read.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Thu May 03, 2018 11:03 am

^ So Unit-13's name differentiates it from the others by a subtle difference like how Unit-01 is referred to as "First Number Machine" subtly marking the both of them as "special" in some fashion.

And while it is not confirmed Unit-01 is an Adam, it can be inferred not only because of the similarities between it and Unit-13, but also because of the importance of its recovery by WILLE (sending EVAs to space and all), taking one of the impact capable pieces out of play, or at the very least, keeping one safe and out of NERV and SEELE's hands. This would also mean, based solely on this theory, that Shinji's recovery was a bonus to recovering Unit-01.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Thu May 03, 2018 11:21 am

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:This would also mean, based solely on this theory, that Shinji's recovery was a bonus to recovering Unit-01.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if WILLE HAD to reconstruct Shinji in order to use Unit 01. No one there wanted him to be there, he was just in custody to keep him from fucking everything up again. I'm sure they would've left him as LCL if they could have, maybe separated out into separate containers AKIRA style to keep NERV from gathering up all his bits and reassembling him, and then using him to cause 4th Impact.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Thu May 03, 2018 11:28 am

^ Like his remnants were interfering with connecting Unit-01 to the Wunder. So, like a contaminative, he had to be removed (much to everyone's annoyance as we see in the film), and we can assume it took three tries to get it right, given his official designation as "BM-03" Maybe two (or three) souls inside an EVA disrupt it's normal operation, like some kind of interference or something.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu May 03, 2018 12:12 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkovitch wrote:Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if WILLE HAD to reconstruct Shinji in order to use Unit 01. No one there wanted him to be there, he was just in custody to keep him from fucking everything up again. I'm sure they would've left him as LCL if they could have, maybe separated out into separate containers AKIRA style to keep NERV from gathering up all his bits and reassembling him, and then using him to cause 4th Impact.

The way Ritsuko explained it, it sounds like they just found him inside Unit 01's plug along with the SDAT while they were conducting their examination of it. The SDAT was devoured by Zeruel along with Rei so there's really no reason they shouldn't have been able to reconstruct her if they were able to get it and Shinji back. I think Yui might have just booted him out to further her and Gendo's plan. We're told that Shinji was able to awaken Unit 01 during Operation US but it refuses to synchronize with him again shortly after. Since he's able to use Unit 13 with no problems, the issue would seem to be on Unit 01's end.

Going back to your question about Unit 13, neither Kaworu nor Shinji went into the Great Beyond Depth and into the core like Shinji did with Unit 01, so that probably had something to do with it. The model kit for Unit 13's awakened form labels it as "Giji Shinka Phase 3+ (Estimated)" which puts it beyond Unit 01's Phase 2 Radiant Giant. The two Spears reacted by glowing white-pink as it was beginning to transform. They may have allowed it to ascend to an even higher state of being.

Reichu wrote:"One of the surviving Adams" is how we translated it for the github fan translation way back.

https://github.com/eva3/Evangelion--3.0 ... RANSLATION

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but do we have any way of knowing if "Adams" is being used as both the singular and plural forms like "Lilin" is? I can't think of any instances where the films used a singular "Adam" but that could simply be a result of phrasing.
Last edited by BlueBasilisk on Thu May 03, 2018 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Thu May 03, 2018 12:42 pm

^ Ascend even higher? What is this DBS with SSGSS or what have you, or different levels of biblical angels (angel, seraphim, archangel)? I would think an impact capable Evangelion (or anything for that matter) would be equal in terms of having access to "the great reset button" an impact provides.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Thu May 03, 2018 12:54 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote: This would also mean, based solely on this theory, that Shinji's recovery was a bonus to recovering Unit-01.


It's made pretty clear WILLE only wants Unit-01, and even then just as a battery. They took him out specifically to prevent the risk of another impact, and only kept him around so they could control his movements. It was Nerv who wanted Shinji, as Ritsuko points out, so that they could use him for Unit-13.

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:The way Ritsuko explained it, it sounds like they just found him inside Unit 01's plug along with the SDAT while they were conducting their examination of it. The SDAT was devoured by Zeruel along with Rei so there's really no reason they shouldn't have been able to reconstruct her if they were able to get it and Shinji back. I think Yui might have just booted him out to further her and Gendo's plan. We're told that Shinji was able to awaken Unit 01 during Operation US but it refuses to synchronize with him again shortly after. Since he's able to use Unit 13 with no problems, the issue would seem to be on Unit 01's end.


I'm not sure how much stock I put in that simply because I don't think Yui would have expected the formation of WILLE and the use of Unit-01 to power the Wunder. I know she's generally considered to be a great planner like Gendo but after a point you're just making her out to be omniscient.

My answer for the 0 Synch rate is that, given WILLE's clearly willing to withhold information from Shinji, they're probably not above lying to him about stuff. It's possible the 0 synch rate was fabricated to discourage him from trying to pilot. Notice how it's not brought up at all once Shinji gets in Unit-13; at no point does WILLE go "hey, he shouldn't be able to do this". Even if the problem were with Unit-01, Ritsuko had no way of knowing that so she'd assume the issue was with Shinji were it true.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Joseki » Thu May 03, 2018 1:06 pm

Rei's ultimate desire was avoiding the pain of piloting to Shinji, so my belief is that the 0% synch ratio is caused by her soul blocking him. That would also explain why she wasn't found in the first place, she's fine with being part of Unit 01 forever.
Shinji's soul instead heard Asuka's call for help during Operation US and saved the day before returning to a human form.
The Eva is capable of refusing a pilot, Unit 01 already did it in 2.0, so I'm pretty confident that the 0% synch ratio is due to someone inside the Eva. I also believe that what Misato said was real, there's way too little information given in the movie to be fake.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Blockio » Thu May 03, 2018 1:53 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote: and we can assume it took three tries to get it right, given his official designation as "BM-03" Maybe two (or three) souls inside an EVA disrupt it's normal operation, like some kind of interference or something.

Well, the current state is that there were three souls inside Unit 01: Shinji, Rei and Yui.

ACGT-Samael wrote:My answer for the 0 Synch rate is that, given WILLE's clearly willing to withhold information from Shinji, they're probably not above lying to him about stuff. It's possible the 0 synch rate was fabricated to discourage him from trying to pilot. Notice how it's not brought up at all once Shinji gets in Unit-13; at no point does WILLE go "hey, he shouldn't be able to do this". Even if the problem were with Unit-01, Ritsuko had no way of knowing that so she'd assume the issue was with Shinji were it true.

Joseki wrote:Rei's ultimate desire was avoiding the pain of piloting to Shinji, so my belief is that the 0% synch ratio is caused by her soul blocking him. That would also explain why she wasn't found in the first place, she's fine with being part of Unit 01 forever.
Shinji's soul instead heard Asuka's call for help during Operation US and saved the day before returning to a human form.
The Eva is capable of refusing a pilot, Unit 01 already did it in 2.0, so I'm pretty confident that the 0% synch ratio is due to someone inside the Eva.

Both of these are valid points... I am not sure which one makes more sense to me... its both very Wile-like to not tell Shinji relevant information as well as very Rei 2.0-like to do something like this


...is this still on topic?
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Thu May 03, 2018 1:58 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:

...is this still on topic?


Well, I'll now attempt to restore the topic.

The confusion for me about Mark.09's origins comes from the fact it's described as the Ship's Original Master, and that it's trying to take the ship back from Unit-01. This sort of implies Mark.09 was the Ship's power supply at some point, which if trust would only further muddle the link between the Adams and the Wunder.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Thu May 03, 2018 2:02 pm

Maybe the Wunder is just the Adam's pet and it's really named fido or sparky or something of the like :nyao:

Or it transported them to Earth in the first place and is another FAR being.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Blockio » Thu May 03, 2018 2:05 pm

Personally, I think the Wunder is the eleventh angel and Mark.09 was required for it to be tamed/broken and put under lilin control
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