Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
Moderators: Rebuild/OT Moderators, Board Staff
Forum rules
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion.
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion.
- AdamMalkovitch
- Clockiel
- Age: 24
- Posts: 403
- Joined: Jul 23, 2017
- Location: Hell
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
This may have been figured out already, but I finally pieced together these three puzzle pieces introduced in Shin Gekijoban Evangelion Q. Throughout the film, Mari continually refers to Evangelion Mark. 09 as the "Adams Vessel". This justly confused a ton of people, but notice how when it fuses with the AAA WUNDER during the climax, not only does the inside of the entry plug shift to a bunch of SEELE logos, but it's referred to by Ritsuko as "the original master of WUNDER. Everybody knows this, but I think I've finally figured out what it means, and it confirms my theory that the AAA WUNDER was stolen by WILLE from either NERV or SEELE.
I believe that, originally, the WUNDER was built to carry one of the four Adams back from the South Pole to Japan, to be fitted as an Eva and used to bring about Fourth Impact. Originally, it would have been controlled by Mark.09 in the pod on the underside, and the Adams would be stored in the areas that are used as Evangelion cages by WILLE. This explains why the UI of the WUNDER is so NERV-like. It's also interesting to note that the WUNDER has a built-in manual piloting mode, seen when the bridge crew rises into the ceiling of the bridge into what is basically a titanic Entry Plug.
I believe that, originally, the WUNDER was built to carry one of the four Adams back from the South Pole to Japan, to be fitted as an Eva and used to bring about Fourth Impact. Originally, it would have been controlled by Mark.09 in the pod on the underside, and the Adams would be stored in the areas that are used as Evangelion cages by WILLE. This explains why the UI of the WUNDER is so NERV-like. It's also interesting to note that the WUNDER has a built-in manual piloting mode, seen when the bridge crew rises into the ceiling of the bridge into what is basically a titanic Entry Plug.
*injects Angel blood* I know what the fuck an EVA is now :)
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
AdamMalkovitch wrote:I believe that, originally, the WUNDER was built to carry one of the four Adams back from the South Pole to Japan, to be fitted as an Eva and used to bring about Fourth Impact. Originally, it would have been controlled by Mark.09 in the pod on the underside, and the Adams would be stored in the areas that are used as Evangelion cages by WILLE. This explains why the UI of the WUNDER is so NERV-like. It's also interesting to note that the WUNDER has a built-in manual piloting mode, seen when the bridge crew rises into the ceiling of the bridge into what is basically a titanic Entry Plug.
Interesting theory... but I rather think that the Adams would have been stored in the entry plug-like tubes on the back of the ship
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
- AdamMalkovitch
- Clockiel
- Age: 24
- Posts: 403
- Joined: Jul 23, 2017
- Location: Hell
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
Yeah, I didn't even notice those until today's rewatch when I figured this out during the fight in the lowest level of Central Dogma.
*injects Angel blood* I know what the fuck an EVA is now :)
- Reichu
- Admin Emeritus
- Posts: 24046
- Joined: Aug 21, 2004
- Location: Sailing for the white shores
- Gender: Female
- Contact:
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
Your post doesn't appear to actually address why Mark.09 is called this anywhere. Unless you're assuming "vessel" means something it doesn't...
post/772761/Core-Mechanics-and-New-Weapons-in-NTE/#772761
post/872763/What-are-the-Adams/#872763
Blockio wrote:I rather think that the Adams would have been stored in the entry plug-like tubes on the back of the ship
If you're talking about the control rod things, the Evas are much larger than those. (Get a feel for the Wunder's scale quickly by comparing the film's final shot of 02 and 08 to a Wunder schematic. The Evas are tied down to the platform that's on the Wunder's ass-end.)
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog
- BlueBasilisk
- Bridge Bunny
- Age: 36
- Posts: 1575
- Joined: Nov 14, 2010
- Gender: Male
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
I am beginning to believe that Wunder and the Vessel of the Adams were built by Seele for some unspecified purpose probably relating to Instrumentality. During the attempt in Fourth Impact, the Vessel, while operating under Seele OS, attempted to seize control of the ship. Why do that unless they intended to use it for something? It had more than enough firepower to destroy or disable the Wunder if it was really just there to run interference like Kaworu claimed.
The Vessel just being called that because it's a ship controller would be nice and simple, but as Reichu noted in her post, the word used in its name is utsuwa which means it's a container of some sort rather than a vehicle. And the full name on the only official figure it has is designates it as the First Vessel of Adams so there might be/have been others like it.
There's also this handy chart from Wunder's page on the wiki:
The Vessel just being called that because it's a ship controller would be nice and simple, but as Reichu noted in her post, the word used in its name is utsuwa which means it's a container of some sort rather than a vehicle. And the full name on the only official figure it has is designates it as the First Vessel of Adams so there might be/have been others like it.
Reichu wrote:If you're talking about the control rod things, the Evas are much larger than those. (Get a feel for the Wunder's scale quickly by comparing the film's final shot of 02 and 08 to a Wunder schematic. The Evas are tied down to the platform that's on the Wunder's ass-end.)
There's also this handy chart from Wunder's page on the wiki:
SPOILER: Show
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!
- Reichu
- Admin Emeritus
- Posts: 24046
- Joined: Aug 21, 2004
- Location: Sailing for the white shores
- Gender: Female
- Contact:
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
I wonder (no pun intended) if Mark.09 was dropping its tentacles into the Wunder's "womb" not merely to wrest control back from Eva-01, but also to make contact with her. Whether to keep her subdued and prevent her from meddling with the impact, or maybe something else...? In retrospect, it's kind of weird how Eva-01 is basically treated as a non-entity during 4I despite having been active in prior events (possibly all three: N3I for sure; 2I and 3I if certain speculah is correct). Did Gendo have contingencies in place to get Eva-01 involved in case 4I was never stopped?
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog
- BlueBasilisk
- Bridge Bunny
- Age: 36
- Posts: 1575
- Joined: Nov 14, 2010
- Gender: Male
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
Reichu wrote:I wonder (no pun intended) if Mark.09 was dropping its tentacles into the Wunder's "womb" not merely to wrest control back from Eva-01, but also to make contact with her. Whether to keep her subdued and prevent her from meddling with the impact, or maybe something else...? In retrospect, it's kind of weird how Eva-01 is basically treated as a non-entity during 4I despite having been active in prior events (possibly all three: N3I for sure; 2I and 3I if certain speculah is correct). Did Gendo have contingencies in place to get Eva-01 involved in case 4I was never stopped?
Yeah, that was really odd. I kept expecting Unit 01 to fire up her Buster Beams to blow the Mark.09 away but she never did.
That's an interesting question about the contingencies. It's hard to imagine Gendo not having some kind of contingency in mind for this scenario but it's tough to really say without knowing how his changes to Seele's plan altered the course of 4th Impact. Kaworu became an Angel and died, Unit 13 awakened (neither of which seemed to be part of Seele's plans since Gendo counts them as successes), plus Cassius went AWOL so I have to wonder if it was even possible for Unit 13 to carry out the Instrumentality Project under those conditions?
Maybe he had some other mechanism prepared to eject Shinji's plug once Kaworu died? If nothing else he might have been able to ride out the Impact inside his flying pyramid until one of those MP Evas could be dispatched to eject the plug using that convenient handle.
The Vessel is kind of a wildcard in this scenario. He could have ordered Rei to self-destruct it once she'd fulfilled her role in the plot, but she didn't so evidently that was not the plan, and I imagine things would have gone south quickly if it absorbed her. Did he anticipate her running?
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!
- AdamMalkovitch
- Clockiel
- Age: 24
- Posts: 403
- Joined: Jul 23, 2017
- Location: Hell
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
BlueBasilisk wrote:The Vessel is kind of a wildcard in this scenario. He could have ordered Rei to self-destruct it once she'd fulfilled her role in the plot, but she didn't so evidently that was not the plan, and I imagine things would have gone south quickly if it absorbed her. Did he anticipate her running?
She states she was ordered to decapitate Mk.06 in order to release the 12th Angel (more decapitation imagery, what the hell?), and since she was already down there, it's likely he knew she'd be justly disturbed by the weird ass Ayanami/Yui face and fetus appearing on the surface of the Angel's body as it enveloped Unit 13, and would likely peace the fuck out once she lost control of Mark.09 upon fusing with the WUNDER.
*injects Angel blood* I know what the fuck an EVA is now :)
- ACGT-Samael
- Tunniel
- Age: 31
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Mar 16, 2018
- Location: Canada
- Gender: Male
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
I'm kinda starting to wonder if we've simply misunderstood how Utsuwa was meant to be translated, especially given Anno's love of double meanings. It does frequently translate as vessel (and indeed that's where my mind went first because of Yugioh and "Pharaoh no Utsuwa"), but as it turns out the Kanji actually has a ton of meanings, including "Tool". If Mark.09 is actually meant to be the Tool of the Adams as much as the Vessel, that changes the way we think about it.
- pwhodges
- A Lilin in Wonderland
- Age: 77
- Posts: 11035
- Joined: Nov 18, 2012
- Location: Oxford, UK
- Contact:
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
Remember that one of the sets of subtitles on the English DVD is by Khara's in-house translator Dan Kanemitsu, so is assumed not to contain major errors like that.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: The end of the journey (details); Past avatars.
Before 3.0+1.0 there was Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: The end of the journey (details); Past avatars.
Before 3.0+1.0 there was Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)
- ACGT-Samael
- Tunniel
- Age: 31
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Mar 16, 2018
- Location: Canada
- Gender: Male
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
I wouldn't say it's an error, but there's no way for translate the word Utsuwa into English that preserves its multiple meanings, so they'd eight have to pick one and lose some of the pun or leave it untranslated ("Adams' Utsuwa" in otherwise English text) and confuse people.
The fact Mark.09 can hack into Wunder using its biomass as opposed to a more conventional way of regaining the ship, coupled with Rei using Mark.09 to jump start Fourth Impact, suggests Anno at least had the duplicity in mind when he wrote its scenes.
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
Is Unit 01 even able to do anything other than being a giant battery if Shinji isn't sitting in the Entry Plug? I think we only get see it rejecting the Dummy System in 2.0.
I would think the Eva is only capable of rejecting a pilot (or a dummy) on its own.
- ACGT-Samael
- Tunniel
- Age: 31
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Mar 16, 2018
- Location: Canada
- Gender: Male
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
That's the thing: we honestly don't know. Based on Unit-03 it would seem Rebuild threw out the soul resonance idea from NGE, so now it's unclear what the pilot actually does apart from operating hours controls.
That said, given how afraid WILLE is of another impact I doubt they'd want Unit-01 as a defence implement in case it did something screwy.
- Reichu
- Admin Emeritus
- Posts: 24046
- Joined: Aug 21, 2004
- Location: Sailing for the white shores
- Gender: Female
- Contact:
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
ACGT-Samael wrote:I'm kinda starting to wonder if we've simply misunderstood how Utsuwa was meant to be translated, especially given Anno's love of double meanings. It does frequently translate as vessel (and indeed that's where my mind went first because of Yugioh and "Pharaoh no Utsuwa"), but as it turns out the Kanji actually has a ton of meanings, including "Tool".
器(うつわ)≠ 器(き)
器 【うつわ】 (n) (1) bowl, vessel, container, (2) ability, capacity, calibre, caliber, (P)
器 【き】 (suf) (1) device, instrument, (2) vessel, container
With Mark.09 being one big core, and cores being containers, I don't think there's anything to misunderstand, really.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog
- BlueBasilisk
- Bridge Bunny
- Age: 36
- Posts: 1575
- Joined: Nov 14, 2010
- Gender: Male
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
It's a good question. We've never seen it do anything like that in this continuity but that doesn't mean it can't either. So far we've seen three Evas acting on their own with no pilot on board: Unit 00 in 1.0, and Units 02 and Mark.09 in 3.0.
In any case, that was my impression my first time watching the movie, which iirc was before we'd really cottoned on to the fact that Unit 01 doesn't do much independent movement in the movies.
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!
- ACGT-Samael
- Tunniel
- Age: 31
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Mar 16, 2018
- Location: Canada
- Gender: Male
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
Misunderstood is probably the wrong word. What I meant is more that since both words use the same Kanji, and both functions seem to apply to Mark.09, Utsuwa can be taken from mean both by way of a forced reading, a writing device not uncommon in Japanese.
- Reichu
- Admin Emeritus
- Posts: 24046
- Joined: Aug 21, 2004
- Location: Sailing for the white shores
- Gender: Female
- Contact:
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
Forced reading, as in okurigana? If so, I would consider it, heh, forced to try to make that apply here. It's clear from context how you're supposed to read it. There's no Anno-style word games in play here. You're not going to get any closer to why Anno called this thing a vessel of Adams by scraping the kanji dictionary for the readings he did not use. I've seen almost no attempt (aside from my own posts) to work within the constraints of what the term straightforwardly means, so it's really no wonder almost no one can make any sense of it. First exhaust the obvious.
Though if you really consider this valid practice, I suggest you go apply the same level of "any kanji reading will do" reasoning to every Evangelion term with kanji in it. I mean, if it's good enough for this one, it's good enough for all of them. But no, seriously, that's a terrible idea, and treating every square inch of Evangelion like a Magic Eye that will yield a hidden image if you stare at it long enough is a standard rookie mistake that will embarrass you pink later on. Knowing any amount of Japanese is useful, but seriously... don't overthink it. At the rate you're going, you'll be milking significance of the fact that, say, 黒い月 could mean "black month" in no time.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog
- ACGT-Samael
- Tunniel
- Age: 31
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Mar 16, 2018
- Location: Canada
- Gender: Male
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
Reichu wrote:Forced reading, as in okurigana? If so, I would consider it, heh, forced to try to make that apply here. It's clear from context how you're supposed to read it. There's no Anno-style word games in play here. You're not going to get any closer to why Anno called this thing a vessel of Adams by scraping the kanji dictionary for the readings he did not use. I've seen almost no attempt (aside from my own posts) to work within the constraints of what the term straightforwardly means, so it's really no wonder almost no one can make any sense of it. First exhaust the obvious.
The reason nobody can make sense of it is the series doesn't provide enough context to explain exactly what it's intended to mean. I know we're never going for because Anno's response to explaining stuff is "let them fanwank" but it doesn't help that we're still in the dark about the Adams themselves. Past a certain point you assume you're never getting an answer so it becomes time to get weird.
Though if you really consider this valid practice, I suggest you go apply the same level of "any kanji reading will do" reasoning to every Evangelion term with kanji in it. I mean, if it's good enough for this one, it's good enough for all of them. But no, seriously, that's a terrible idea, and treating every square inch of Evangelion like a Magic Eye that will yield a hidden image if you stare at it long enough is a standard rookie mistake that will embarrass you pink later on. Knowing any amount of Japanese is useful, but seriously... don't overthink it. At the rate you're going, you'll be milking significance of the fact that, say, 黒い月 could mean "black month" in no time.
Yeah, I'm not advocating that for every term out there. Japanese is so context heavy you'd end up with incomprehensible garbage if you did. I only bring it up here because, as you pointed out, nobody has been able to come up with anything concrete about Mark.09's origins and intended function just relying on "vessel/container".
(Re : black month... well, 3I does take place on New Years Eve, the end of the Gregorian Calendar Year...)
- DarkBluePhoenix
- Pilot
- Age: 32
- Posts: 2020
- Joined: Aug 01, 2016
- Location: Somewhere between the light in my heart and the darkness in my soul
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
Maybe the Mark.09 is the fourth Adam that has yet to be accounted for when you factor in the other three we are aware of (Unit-01, Unit-13, and Mark.06).
Avatar - Heero Yuy, pilot of Wing Gundam Zero. If you want to read my NGE fanfic go to my profile here - DarkBluePhoenix on FanFiction.net or DarkBluePhoenix on AO3
Voted in college to be Most likely to Take Over the World, how to do that however, will require at least Four Evangelions. Thanks for the idea Misato-san!
"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." Said at the beginning of the nuclear age by J. Robert Oppenheimer.
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." Words of Wisdom from German Philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche.
Voted in college to be Most likely to Take Over the World, how to do that however, will require at least Four Evangelions. Thanks for the idea Misato-san!
"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." Said at the beginning of the nuclear age by J. Robert Oppenheimer.
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." Words of Wisdom from German Philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche.
- Reichu
- Admin Emeritus
- Posts: 24046
- Joined: Aug 21, 2004
- Location: Sailing for the white shores
- Gender: Female
- Contact:
Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER
@ DarkBluePhoenix: This has been effectively ruled out by the Mark.09's full appellation. As BlueBasilisk mentioned, the Mark.09 is called the FIRST Adams' Vessel, implying there are or were others. Also take note that Mark.09 is repeatedly called "Adams' Vessel" in the film, but when Eva-13 awakens, it's just called an "Adam(s)". This doesn't make much sense unless two different concepts are being referred to. Mark.09 is clearly related to the Adams in some way, but it is not an Adam(s) per se.
Well, you say "nobody", but I post stuff like this (post linked to earlier):
...and it just gets ignored. If nothing else, it's proof that fanwanking using the surface level meaning is possible. People are just unwilling to do it. For some reason.
Well, you say "nobody", but I post stuff like this (post linked to earlier):
Reichu wrote:The final piece of the puzzle here is the Adams' Vessels. Eva Mark.09 is, according to its full designation, only one of them -- iow, there are others that have existed or still do exist. "Vessel" is utsuwa, which means "container". The only other time (that I know of) that this term is used in NTE is in the Explanation of Eva 1.01, where the entry plug is termed the "Vessel for a Soul" (that of the pilot's). Mark.09's true form is that of a polymorphic core, and cores are things that contain souls. You can maybe see where this is going. The Adams' Vessels are probably the disembodied cores of the Adams, separated from their bodies in order to bring Second Impact to an end. This would have separated the Adams' bodies from both their souls and their Fruits of Life, explaining why they need to regain both in order to be "repowered". This also means that the Adams' Vessels and the Vessels for Souls (= Entry Plugs) are different containers for the same things.
...and it just gets ignored. If nothing else, it's proof that fanwanking using the surface level meaning is possible. People are just unwilling to do it. For some reason.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog
Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion Discussion”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests