Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Tue May 01, 2018 1:06 pm

This may have been figured out already, but I finally pieced together these three puzzle pieces introduced in Shin Gekijoban Evangelion Q. Throughout the film, Mari continually refers to Evangelion Mark. 09 as the "Adams Vessel". This justly confused a ton of people, but notice how when it fuses with the AAA WUNDER during the climax, not only does the inside of the entry plug shift to a bunch of SEELE logos, but it's referred to by Ritsuko as "the original master of WUNDER. Everybody knows this, but I think I've finally figured out what it means, and it confirms my theory that the AAA WUNDER was stolen by WILLE from either NERV or SEELE.
I believe that, originally, the WUNDER was built to carry one of the four Adams back from the South Pole to Japan, to be fitted as an Eva and used to bring about Fourth Impact. Originally, it would have been controlled by Mark.09 in the pod on the underside, and the Adams would be stored in the areas that are used as Evangelion cages by WILLE. This explains why the UI of the WUNDER is so NERV-like. It's also interesting to note that the WUNDER has a built-in manual piloting mode, seen when the bridge crew rises into the ceiling of the bridge into what is basically a titanic Entry Plug.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Blockio » Tue May 01, 2018 1:23 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkovitch wrote:I believe that, originally, the WUNDER was built to carry one of the four Adams back from the South Pole to Japan, to be fitted as an Eva and used to bring about Fourth Impact. Originally, it would have been controlled by Mark.09 in the pod on the underside, and the Adams would be stored in the areas that are used as Evangelion cages by WILLE. This explains why the UI of the WUNDER is so NERV-like. It's also interesting to note that the WUNDER has a built-in manual piloting mode, seen when the bridge crew rises into the ceiling of the bridge into what is basically a titanic Entry Plug.

Interesting theory... but I rather think that the Adams would have been stored in the entry plug-like tubes on the back of the ship
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Tue May 01, 2018 1:41 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Interesting theory... but I rather think that the Adams would have been stored in the entry plug-like tubes on the back of the ship

Yeah, I didn't even notice those until today's rewatch when I figured this out during the fight in the lowest level of Central Dogma.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Reichu » Tue May 01, 2018 5:07 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkovitch wrote:Mari continually refers to Evangelion Mark. 09 as the "Adams Vessel".

Your post doesn't appear to actually address why Mark.09 is called this anywhere. Unless you're assuming "vessel" means something it doesn't...

post/772761/Core-Mechanics-and-New-Weapons-in-NTE/#772761
post/872763/What-are-the-Adams/#872763

Blockio wrote:I rather think that the Adams would have been stored in the entry plug-like tubes on the back of the ship

If you're talking about the control rod things, the Evas are much larger than those. (Get a feel for the Wunder's scale quickly by comparing the film's final shot of 02 and 08 to a Wunder schematic. The Evas are tied down to the platform that's on the Wunder's ass-end.)

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Tue May 01, 2018 8:14 pm

I am beginning to believe that Wunder and the Vessel of the Adams were built by Seele for some unspecified purpose probably relating to Instrumentality. During the attempt in Fourth Impact, the Vessel, while operating under Seele OS, attempted to seize control of the ship. Why do that unless they intended to use it for something? It had more than enough firepower to destroy or disable the Wunder if it was really just there to run interference like Kaworu claimed.

The Vessel just being called that because it's a ship controller would be nice and simple, but as Reichu noted in her post, the word used in its name is utsuwa which means it's a container of some sort rather than a vehicle. And the full name on the only official figure it has is designates it as the First Vessel of Adams so there might be/have been others like it.

Reichu wrote:If you're talking about the control rod things, the Evas are much larger than those. (Get a feel for the Wunder's scale quickly by comparing the film's final shot of 02 and 08 to a Wunder schematic. The Evas are tied down to the platform that's on the Wunder's ass-end.)

There's also this handy chart from Wunder's page on the wiki:
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Reichu » Tue May 01, 2018 9:12 pm

I wonder (no pun intended) if Mark.09 was dropping its tentacles into the Wunder's "womb" not merely to wrest control back from Eva-01, but also to make contact with her. Whether to keep her subdued and prevent her from meddling with the impact, or maybe something else...? In retrospect, it's kind of weird how Eva-01 is basically treated as a non-entity during 4I despite having been active in prior events (possibly all three: N3I for sure; 2I and 3I if certain speculah is correct). Did Gendo have contingencies in place to get Eva-01 involved in case 4I was never stopped?

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Wed May 02, 2018 10:31 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:I wonder (no pun intended) if Mark.09 was dropping its tentacles into the Wunder's "womb" not merely to wrest control back from Eva-01, but also to make contact with her. Whether to keep her subdued and prevent her from meddling with the impact, or maybe something else...? In retrospect, it's kind of weird how Eva-01 is basically treated as a non-entity during 4I despite having been active in prior events (possibly all three: N3I for sure; 2I and 3I if certain speculah is correct). Did Gendo have contingencies in place to get Eva-01 involved in case 4I was never stopped?

Yeah, that was really odd. I kept expecting Unit 01 to fire up her Buster Beams to blow the Mark.09 away but she never did.

That's an interesting question about the contingencies. It's hard to imagine Gendo not having some kind of contingency in mind for this scenario but it's tough to really say without knowing how his changes to Seele's plan altered the course of 4th Impact. Kaworu became an Angel and died, Unit 13 awakened (neither of which seemed to be part of Seele's plans since Gendo counts them as successes), plus Cassius went AWOL so I have to wonder if it was even possible for Unit 13 to carry out the Instrumentality Project under those conditions?

Maybe he had some other mechanism prepared to eject Shinji's plug once Kaworu died? If nothing else he might have been able to ride out the Impact inside his flying pyramid until one of those MP Evas could be dispatched to eject the plug using that convenient handle.

The Vessel is kind of a wildcard in this scenario. He could have ordered Rei to self-destruct it once she'd fulfilled her role in the plot, but she didn't so evidently that was not the plan, and I imagine things would have gone south quickly if it absorbed her. Did he anticipate her running?
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Wed May 02, 2018 11:05 am

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:The Vessel is kind of a wildcard in this scenario. He could have ordered Rei to self-destruct it once she'd fulfilled her role in the plot, but she didn't so evidently that was not the plan, and I imagine things would have gone south quickly if it absorbed her. Did he anticipate her running?

She states she was ordered to decapitate Mk.06 in order to release the 12th Angel (more decapitation imagery, what the hell?), and since she was already down there, it's likely he knew she'd be justly disturbed by the weird ass Ayanami/Yui face and fetus appearing on the surface of the Angel's body as it enveloped Unit 13, and would likely peace the fuck out once she lost control of Mark.09 upon fusing with the WUNDER.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 02, 2018 1:35 pm

I'm kinda starting to wonder if we've simply misunderstood how Utsuwa was meant to be translated, especially given Anno's love of double meanings. It does frequently translate as vessel (and indeed that's where my mind went first because of Yugioh and "Pharaoh no Utsuwa"), but as it turns out the Kanji actually has a ton of meanings, including "Tool". If Mark.09 is actually meant to be the Tool of the Adams as much as the Vessel, that changes the way we think about it.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby pwhodges » Wed May 02, 2018 1:46 pm

Remember that one of the sets of subtitles on the English DVD is by Khara's in-house translator Dan Kanemitsu, so is assumed not to contain major errors like that.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 02, 2018 2:00 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Remember that one of the sets of subtitles on the English DVD is by Khara's in-house translator Dan Kanemitsu, so is assumed not to contain major errors like that.


I wouldn't say it's an error, but there's no way for translate the word Utsuwa into English that preserves its multiple meanings, so they'd eight have to pick one and lose some of the pun or leave it untranslated ("Adams' Utsuwa" in otherwise English text) and confuse people.

The fact Mark.09 can hack into Wunder using its biomass as opposed to a more conventional way of regaining the ship, coupled with Rei using Mark.09 to jump start Fourth Impact, suggests Anno at least had the duplicity in mind when he wrote its scenes.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Joseki » Wed May 02, 2018 2:14 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Yeah, that was really odd. I kept expecting Unit 01 to fire up her Buster Beams to blow the Mark.09 away but she never did.


Is Unit 01 even able to do anything other than being a giant battery if Shinji isn't sitting in the Entry Plug? I think we only get see it rejecting the Dummy System in 2.0.

I would think the Eva is only capable of rejecting a pilot (or a dummy) on its own.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 02, 2018 2:18 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:Is Unit 01 even able to do anything other than being a giant battery if Shinji isn't sitting in the Entry Plug? I think we only get see it rejecting the Dummy System in 2.0.


That's the thing: we honestly don't know. Based on Unit-03 it would seem Rebuild threw out the soul resonance idea from NGE, so now it's unclear what the pilot actually does apart from operating hours controls.

That said, given how afraid WILLE is of another impact I doubt they'd want Unit-01 as a defence implement in case it did something screwy.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 02, 2018 3:19 pm

ACGT-Samael wrote:I'm kinda starting to wonder if we've simply misunderstood how Utsuwa was meant to be translated, especially given Anno's love of double meanings. It does frequently translate as vessel (and indeed that's where my mind went first because of Yugioh and "Pharaoh no Utsuwa"), but as it turns out the Kanji actually has a ton of meanings, including "Tool".

器(うつわ)≠ 器(き)

器 【うつわ】 (n) (1) bowl, vessel, container, (2) ability, capacity, calibre, caliber, (P)
器 【き】 (suf) (1) device, instrument, (2) vessel, container

With Mark.09 being one big core, and cores being containers, I don't think there's anything to misunderstand, really.

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Wed May 02, 2018 3:24 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:Is Unit 01 even able to do anything other than being a giant battery if Shinji isn't sitting in the Entry Plug? I think we only get see it rejecting the Dummy System in 2.0.

I would think the Eva is only capable of rejecting a pilot (or a dummy) on its own.

It's a good question. We've never seen it do anything like that in this continuity but that doesn't mean it can't either. So far we've seen three Evas acting on their own with no pilot on board: Unit 00 in 1.0, and Units 02 and Mark.09 in 3.0.

In any case, that was my impression my first time watching the movie, which iirc was before we'd really cottoned on to the fact that Unit 01 doesn't do much independent movement in the movies.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 02, 2018 3:47 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:器(うつわ)≠ 器(き)

器 【うつわ】 (n) (1) bowl, vessel, container, (2) ability, capacity, calibre, caliber, (P)
器 【き】 (suf) (1) device, instrument, (2) vessel, container

With Mark.09 being one big core, and cores being containers, I don't think there's anything to misunderstand, really.


Misunderstood is probably the wrong word. What I meant is more that since both words use the same Kanji, and both functions seem to apply to Mark.09, Utsuwa can be taken from mean both by way of a forced reading, a writing device not uncommon in Japanese.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 02, 2018 4:14 pm

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:Misunderstood is probably the wrong word. What I meant is more that since both words use the same Kanji, and both functions seem to apply to Mark.09, Utsuwa can be taken from mean both by way of a forced reading, a writing device not uncommon in Japanese.

Forced reading, as in okurigana? If so, I would consider it, heh, forced to try to make that apply here. It's clear from context how you're supposed to read it. There's no Anno-style word games in play here. You're not going to get any closer to why Anno called this thing a vessel of Adams by scraping the kanji dictionary for the readings he did not use. I've seen almost no attempt (aside from my own posts) to work within the constraints of what the term straightforwardly means, so it's really no wonder almost no one can make any sense of it. First exhaust the obvious.

Though if you really consider this valid practice, I suggest you go apply the same level of "any kanji reading will do" reasoning to every Evangelion term with kanji in it. I mean, if it's good enough for this one, it's good enough for all of them. But no, seriously, that's a terrible idea, and treating every square inch of Evangelion like a Magic Eye that will yield a hidden image if you stare at it long enough is a standard rookie mistake that will embarrass you pink later on. Knowing any amount of Japanese is useful, but seriously... don't overthink it. At the rate you're going, you'll be milking significance of the fact that, say, 黒い月 could mean "black month" in no time.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 02, 2018 5:59 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Forced reading, as in okurigana? If so, I would consider it, heh, forced to try to make that apply here. It's clear from context how you're supposed to read it. There's no Anno-style word games in play here. You're not going to get any closer to why Anno called this thing a vessel of Adams by scraping the kanji dictionary for the readings he did not use. I've seen almost no attempt (aside from my own posts) to work within the constraints of what the term straightforwardly means, so it's really no wonder almost no one can make any sense of it. First exhaust the obvious.


The reason nobody can make sense of it is the series doesn't provide enough context to explain exactly what it's intended to mean. I know we're never going for because Anno's response to explaining stuff is "let them fanwank" but it doesn't help that we're still in the dark about the Adams themselves. Past a certain point you assume you're never getting an answer so it becomes time to get weird.

Though if you really consider this valid practice, I suggest you go apply the same level of "any kanji reading will do" reasoning to every Evangelion term with kanji in it. I mean, if it's good enough for this one, it's good enough for all of them. But no, seriously, that's a terrible idea, and treating every square inch of Evangelion like a Magic Eye that will yield a hidden image if you stare at it long enough is a standard rookie mistake that will embarrass you pink later on. Knowing any amount of Japanese is useful, but seriously... don't overthink it. At the rate you're going, you'll be milking significance of the fact that, say, 黒い月 could mean "black month" in no time.


Yeah, I'm not advocating that for every term out there. Japanese is so context heavy you'd end up with incomprehensible garbage if you did. I only bring it up here because, as you pointed out, nobody has been able to come up with anything concrete about Mark.09's origins and intended function just relying on "vessel/container".

(Re : black month... well, 3I does take place on New Years Eve, the end of the Gregorian Calendar Year...)

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Wed May 02, 2018 7:17 pm

Maybe the Mark.09 is the fourth Adam that has yet to be accounted for when you factor in the other three we are aware of (Unit-01, Unit-13, and Mark.06).
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 02, 2018 7:37 pm

@ DarkBluePhoenix: This has been effectively ruled out by the Mark.09's full appellation. As BlueBasilisk mentioned, the Mark.09 is called the FIRST Adams' Vessel, implying there are or were others. Also take note that Mark.09 is repeatedly called "Adams' Vessel" in the film, but when Eva-13 awakens, it's just called an "Adam(s)". This doesn't make much sense unless two different concepts are being referred to. Mark.09 is clearly related to the Adams in some way, but it is not an Adam(s) per se.

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:I only bring it up here because, as you pointed out, nobody has been able to come up with anything concrete about Mark.09's origins and intended function just relying on "vessel/container".

Well, you say "nobody", but I post stuff like this (post linked to earlier):

View Original PostReichu wrote:The final piece of the puzzle here is the Adams' Vessels. Eva Mark.09 is, according to its full designation, only one of them -- iow, there are others that have existed or still do exist. "Vessel" is utsuwa, which means "container". The only other time (that I know of) that this term is used in NTE is in the Explanation of Eva 1.01, where the entry plug is termed the "Vessel for a Soul" (that of the pilot's). Mark.09's true form is that of a polymorphic core, and cores are things that contain souls. You can maybe see where this is going. The Adams' Vessels are probably the disembodied cores of the Adams, separated from their bodies in order to bring Second Impact to an end. This would have separated the Adams' bodies from both their souls and their Fruits of Life, explaining why they need to regain both in order to be "repowered". This also means that the Adams' Vessels and the Vessels for Souls (= Entry Plugs) are different containers for the same things.

...and it just gets ignored. If nothing else, it's proof that fanwanking using the surface level meaning is possible. People are just unwilling to do it. For some reason. :???:


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