Personal Status After Rebuild

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:59 pm

Evangelion will always be a work I'll watch at least every couple years and talk about very often.
In fact, my next rewatch is due!
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:29 pm

DarkBluePhoenix wrote:^ Well they said that WWI was the war to end all wars... and look how that turned out :emogendo:
View Original PostBlockio wrote::pointup: this is the perfect reply to any announcement about something big coming to an end

Yes, even 100 years later (today no less is that day), it's still a very relevant point to make.
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Postby Blockio » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:09 am

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Yes, even 100 years later (today no less is that day), it's still a very relevant point to make.

Yep, been a while, hasn't it? I still remember a couple of years ago the whole "100 years since first tank deplyoment" thing...
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Postby SEELE-01 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:16 pm

Will probably lurk in here for years on end and throw in sarcastic remarks on threads whenever the topic calls for it.

Eva is far too much part of my life to just "abandon it" or "move on".
To this day I'll show the anime to anyone willing to be mind-fucked (two days ago I introduced a couple of friends to it), so I can discuss in person and gain new insight. To this day I keep learning new perspectives tot he series, so...
I guess I'll collect figures as I always have and see what other debaucheries of merchandise Khara can come up with on the following years (remember the bucket?)
I any case, I'll probably be here when 3rd Impact occurs in this forum*. :emogendo:

*when mods and webmasters get tired of it and shut it down.
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Postby LightDragonman » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:55 am

Honestly, I just want this whole saga to be wrapped up with soon. Anno has dragged us along for almost an entire decade, leaving us with an incredibly dour and depressing note with 3.0's ending, with nothing to show for it while he goes off and works on other projects that he obviously is more passionate about (The Wind Rises, Animator Expo, Shin Godzilla, etc). It really feels like he himself has grown sick of this series (not surprising, given how the third film made him all depressed again), and he'd rather spend more time with his family and friends. Which may be why he's held off on resolving the cliffhanger for so long.

It's just frustrating for me to go through nearly a decade of my life, experienced change and hardships as well, yet these characters are still stuck in the same hopeless spot. It makes it far harder for me to relate to the characters or be sympathetic to their plight because of it. Like, I've had to grow and change, but Shinji and co have not.
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Postby Bhorium » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:17 am

I know what you mean. I can relate to the feeling that the Rebuild series has just been keeping its wheels spinning and that the characters haven't really gone anywhere nor changed significantly, despite Rebuild overtly changing things when it comes to visuals and setting.

I think there should be a name for this feeling towards long-running stories/franchises. Like, "the Spider-Man effect" or something.
Sorry, I was soliloquising again. Filthy habit.

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Postby Joseki » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:59 am

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:leaving us with an incredibly dour and depressing note with 3.0's ending


I think the ending of 3.0 is very positive to be honest, it makes me feel good.
「希望は残っているよ。どんな時にもね」

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:09 am

You know, if the TV series keeps popping up in US distributions, there might be more incentive for people to stick around. More newcomers can mean more interesting discussions.

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Postby LightDragonman » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:50 pm

Joseki wrote:
I think the ending of 3.0 is very positive to be honest, it makes me feel good.


I have absolutely no idea how you could feel that way, given how Shinji is pretty much screwed. He unknowingly killed billions because he tried to save someone he cared about, which failed as well, got one of his other friends killed, nearly everyone either hates him or simply sees him as a means to an end, and the ones that don't see him as untrustworthy and unsympathetic. I know everyone here has speculated that he didn't kill billions, but that's only speculation for now, and also really shows why these delay have been so frustrating to me. It's like we are forced to come up with our own solutions and excuses by inventing the narrative, rather than judging it on its own terms, because Anno has failed to deliver the answer himself. Not saying that every mystery needs an explanation, but when something like this that is so pivotal to whether or not Shinji can be redeemed is shown in the worst way possible, I can only really come to the conclusion that he killed billions unknowingly.

Really, the only real thing one can do to help him out is to put him out of his misery, or for him to make a heroic sacrifice. But because Anno believes that the only thing someone should focus on is living at all costs, that's not gonna happen. To him, sacrifices are the actions of the weak-willed cowards who can't accept living over giving up their lives for others. As long as you are alive, then that is the way to fulfillment and happiness, regardless of what all you have done, or could do to help others. Screw the actions of veterans or other real life heroes who gave up their lives to save others or the ones they cared about. They are all just spineless weaklings because they didn't choose to live.

Hope your happy with your message Anno. You must be so proud.
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Postby Joseki » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:28 pm

The ending makes me feel good because it has a melancholic but positive imaginery. A slow panning upwards, soft piano notes, main characters walking over a hill together towards the future under a perfect sky.

For the rest of the post...

Image
「希望は残っているよ。どんな時にもね」

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Postby Lennik » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:58 pm

I think a lot of us got so wrapped up in speculating about where Shinji goes from here and venting about our empathy for his struggle that we forgot the only valid information we have is what's actually in the movie.

And there is just not enough evidence presented in the actual text of the movie to justify the belief that Shinji is screwed.

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:33 am

^Right! It's also very important to remember that as much as we sympathize with, relate to, or self-insert as Shinji, we are not him and he is not us. The stuff that happens to him and the others, good or bad, is all in service of the story being told. It's not Anno taking some potshot at you for liking character X or thing Y or some manifesto of hatred or the umpteen other things people have read into it. At the end of the day, it's just a story he's telling us. That's not a statement on quality or any messages it might have. I've just gotten the impression that people forget that Eva is intended for entertainment and that they are free to step away from it if it's making them unhappy.

I'll still be an Eva fan once the last movie comes out. I came into the franchise years after NGE had ended and I don't see the new ending changing that. I might not be around discussing it as much. We've spent the last decade plus picking and the movies' minutiae. But I love the characters, setting and lore and I'll always be game to play in this sandbox. ^_^
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

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Postby airman4 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:57 pm

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:I have absolutely no idea how you could feel that way, given how Shinji is pretty much screwed. He unknowingly killed billions because he tried to save someone he cared about, which failed as well, got one of his other friends killed, nearly everyone either hates him or simply sees him as a means to an end, and the ones that don't see him as untrustworthy and unsympathetic. I know everyone here has speculated that he didn't kill billions, but that's only speculation for now, and also really shows why these delay have been so frustrating to me. It's like we are forced to come up with our own solutions and excuses by inventing the narrative, rather than judging it on its own terms, because Anno has failed to deliver the answer himself. Not saying that every mystery needs an explanation, but when something like this that is so pivotal to whether or not Shinji can be redeemed is shown in the worst way possible, I can only really come to the conclusion that he killed billions unknowingly.

Really, the only real thing one can do to help him out is to put him out of his misery, or for him to make a heroic sacrifice. But because Anno believes that the only thing someone should focus on is living at all costs, that's not gonna happen. To him, sacrifices are the actions of the weak-willed cowards who can't accept living over giving up their lives for others. As long as you are alive, then that is the way to fulfillment and happiness, regardless of what all you have done, or could do to help others. Screw the actions of veterans or other real life heroes who gave up their lives to save others or the ones they cared about. They are all just spineless weaklings because they didn't choose to live.

Hope your happy with your message Anno. You must be so proud.


Well, thats evangelion, it's not an happy family film you gonna get
Still killing almost all humanity for saving Rei and failling at it, is...





Depressing ^_^

For the black aera by me in your text, you should see 3.33 again
Check Kaworu and you'll see you are wrong
Kaworu by the way is not weak, is actually one of the strongest characters in the film (but yeah he is not a regular guy )
His will is what made Shinji still live despite the punishment collar put on the hero by WILLE for his crime against humanity.

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Postby LightDragonman » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:35 am

Check Kaworu and you'll see you are wrong
Kaworu by the way is not weak, is actually one of the strongest characters in the film (but yeah he is not a regular guy )
His will is what made Shinji still live despite the punishment collar put on the hero by WILLE for his crime against humanity.


Yet said sacrifice didn't even stop the procedure from happening, and it was only due to Mari's intervention that the Impact was stopped. Meaning that all Kaworu accomplished was driving Shinji further into despair. Again, Anno seems to despise the notion of self-sacrifice, and only wants people to live at all costs. Which I find a rather questionable message.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:23 am

There's plenty of self-sacrifice in his other works, especially Gunbuster. If anything it's the 'death equals redemption' trope or the idea that killing yourself is a workable solution to your problems that he's against.

Kaworu tried to fix a problem he himself caused by dying, but he didn't fix anything. He just burdened the survivors with guilt and the responsibility of cleaning up his mess. There's nothing particularly noble or selfless about it unless you ignore the context of how he got himself into that position in the first place and what he was trying to accomplish by doing so. Or the fact that the DSS Choker was already primed to kill him before he had his change of heart and decided to close the Gates because he saw it was making Shinji unhappy. He didn't even bear the pain of making Unit 13 impale itself. Shinji got left with that while he went out with a smile and some platitudes.

That's a relevant message to the crowd who thinks suicide is the only option Shinji has for redemption. It isn't. As Kaworu said, your wishes and curses live on even after you die. Your actions in life continue to impact people even after you're gone. Death doesn't clean the slate. Misato's father died saving her life, which was the right thing for him to do without a doubt, but she still resented him because that one act didn't erase the bad relationship they had before. Misato lived on which I'm sure is what he cared about most, but she still carries all of that with her without the chance for reconcile or closure with him.

Shinji's now in that same boat thanks to Kaworu (as far as Shinji's aware he's actually desd), and Shinji would just be doing the same to others if he killed himself. Rei's still alive so that's a little different.
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

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Postby airman4 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:49 pm

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:Yet said sacrifice didn't even stop the procedure from happening, and it was only due to Mari's intervention that the Impact was stopped. Meaning that all Kaworu accomplished was driving Shinji further into despair. Again, Anno seems to despise the notion of self-sacrifice, and only wants people to live at all costs. Which I find a rather questionable message.

No he didnt stopped the Choker's explosion but like i said he saved Shinji's life with sacrificing his own life.
Otherwise, i dont even dare to imagine what would have happened
Also I think this death in front of Shinji was necesseray to give a powerful message to Shinji, we will see in 4.44 how it worked
Last edited by airman4 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Melkor » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:11 pm

^Exactly. Kaworu didn't choose to throw his life away. The DSS Choker was going to kill him either way no matter what he did. It was only a matter of who would be the one to die from it. If Kaworu had not removed the choker and put it on himself, then the one whose head would have been blown off would have been Shinji, and if he had just tossed the choker away after taking it off Shinji, then the results might have been much worse because there would have been no way to stop Fourth Impact. It was a lose/lose situation with only three outcomes: Kaworu wears the choker and dies, Shinji wears the choker and dies, or neither of them wear the choker and Fourth Impact happens, in which case everybody in the world would die. Kaworu knew that only one of them would be coming out of that EVA alive, and he did his best to make sure it would be Shinji. He loved Shinji enough to die in his place so that he could go on living.
Last edited by Melkor on Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby airman4 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:10 am

View Original PostMelkor wrote:^Exactly. Kaworu didn't choose to throw his life away. The DSS Choker was going to kill him either way no matter what he did. It was only a matter of would be the one to die from it. If Kaworu had not removed the choker and put it on himself, then the one whose head would have been blown off would have been Shinji, and if he had just left tossed the choker away after taking it off Shinji, then the results might have been much worse because there would have been no way to stop Fourth Impact. It was a lose/lose situation with only three outcomes: Kaworu wears the choker and dies, Shinji wears the choker and dies, or neither of them wear the choker and Fourth Impact happens, in which case everybody in the world would die. Kaworu knew that only one of them would be coming out of that EVA alive, and he did his best to make sure it would be Shinji. He loved Shinji enough to die in his place so that he could go on living.


I didnt wanted to go there with the loose /loose situation but yeah you explained finally better than me

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:57 am

Here's the problem: if things had gone Kaworu's way, The Human Instrumentality Project was going to happen anyway. There was no golden path where Shinji got what he was after because that wasn't the plan. Shinji was playing a losing game as soon as he decided to step foot in Unit 13. Seele still almost won despite Gendo's intervention.

Think about the alternative for a second. If everything had been as Kaworu wanted without Gendo's machinations, what would have happened? The trust between Shinji and Kaworu would remain intact and Shinji wouldn't turn on Kaworu. Kaworu wouldn't fall and become the anomalous 13th Angel. Shinji might never have known he was an Angel at all. Kaworu wasn't exactly forthcoming with that information. Without Kaworu becoming the 13th Angel, Unit 13 doesn't awaken and go out of control, so the DSS Choker doesn't activate.

But then what? Using the Eva, the Spears and Lilith, Kaworu would have initiated the HIP. Shinji would have no reason to be against this because as far as he knows, everything is going as planned. And without things falling apart, there's no reason for Shinji to turn into a distressed, sobbing, miserable wreck. And if Shinji's not unhappy, there's no reason for Kaworu to have his change of heart and stop because as far as he knows, he is bringing Shinji true happiness. Shinji probably wouldn't even realize anything was wrong until it was much too late, if he did at all.

Eva 13 awakening was ultimately a good thing for Shinji because it finally opened his eyes to the fact that something fucked up was going on. Asuka wasn't getting through to him at all.

I think Kaworu did genuinely want to make Shinji happy, but what he was actually offering wasn't at all what Shinji believed it was.

Keep in mind that he's not a lilin. He's an Angel, possibly even an Adam, and he seems to be aware that Shinji isn't really a Lilin either. That's likely going to give him an entirely different perspective on things.

This Shinji/Kaworu discussion is interesting but maybe it'd be more fitting for a different thread rather than this one? So many threads get derailed by Shinji on this sub-forum. :/
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!


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