Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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ACGT-Samael
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Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:55 am

At the end of the Instrumentality section, Adam and Lilith tell Shinji they are the hope of mankind that dwells within their hearts (or something, the dialogue gets pretty weird man) and the GNR begins to crumble, signifying the death of the collective and creating the second primordial sea. One of the last images of the film is a Rei apparition over the sea, seemingly one of Lilith's quantum messengers traveling through time to give Asuka's back from the collective.

However, her presence makes me wonder whether Adam and Lilith (as Kaworu and Rei) are truly gone for good, as opposed to the rest of humanity who we're told can all return to flesh and blood if they will it so. We see Asuka's one of the first to return to the world, and she was pretty goddamn dead before Instrumentality in all likelihood, which seems to be in line with a quantum Rei collecting Misato postmortem.

Now I'm not suggesting Adam and Lilith would return as Seeds of Life or anything, as that would fly in Athens face of the scene, but is anything stopping Rei and Kaworu from returning as ordinary Lilin if they will it so? It would make sense they'd want to see the world they helped reset/purify, even if they'd not be able to influence it much anymore?

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Re: Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:23 pm

I don't think it's possible for anyone to give a conclusive answer for this but personally I feel like if they were going to be coming back they'd have been the first ones back since they know all the secrets of the process and letting Shinji meander on his own for weeks either means they can't or they don't have any desire to come back. Rei has the added complication of her giant head sitting there and not going anywhere anytime soon, I can't imagine people taking that well. Kaworu might also have problems fitting in, outside of the fact that he is so physically similar to Rei, if Seele outed him as an Angel and pinned the whole thing on Gendo in their pitch to invade NERV.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Re: Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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Postby Lavinius » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:22 am

The shared body of Adam and Lilith was destroyed. Now, neither Adam's soul nor Adam's essential personhood were destroyed with the death of Kaworu's body, nor were Rei's with the deaths of her bodies; moreover, as we're told, the "death" of all Lilin with the destruction of their bodies is perfectly reversible. A soul whose body is destroyed is neither destroyed nor loses its personhood. So we have no reason to worry that they've been destroyed.

Shinji even then sees an image of Rei, confirming that she still exists and that she retains her personhood. Since Kaworu's soul was last seen with Rei's, it's reasonable to think that he's in an analogous state.

I am interested that you associate Rei's appearance with the restoration of Asuka- that makes a lot of sense, since there wouldn't seem to be any other reason for her to appear then rather than at any other time.

I don't accept the "quantum Rei" theory. I admit that Lilith at times produces images of herself; I don't see any reason to think that this indicates any atemporality of her nature. Atemporality is never mentioned elsewhere, to bring it in to explain something that's easily understood as subconcious projections of herself seems to me entirely unjustified.
Prior to Third Impact, the image of Rei appeared in three situations:
*To her genetic brother as he first approached her.
*In the dreams of those close to her.
*In the same building as her, at the death of someone close to her. That she later does this more extensively with her power much restored hardly indicates that she traveled back in time to do so initially.

As for why Rei and Kaworu don't restore themselves to Lilin bodies, why should they? They're not Lilin, indeed it's quite clear that being a Lilin is an unnatural state for them. You mention that they would be able to see the world they purified, but I don't see any reason to think they can't already do that as they are, albeit from a different perspective.

I would speculate that they currently are occupying divine offices as custodians of the ambient ghosts and more importantly as creator deities, directors of the restoration and evolution of life- which is of course far more extensive than just Lilin-Humanity. The latter is also what I imagine Lilith- who unlike Adam was perfectly intact over the past four billion years- had already been doing down there in the Black Moon the whole time: commanding evolution. (I'd also point out that I've never seen reason to think that very many Lilin souls will reform their bodies as Shinji and Asuka did; their souls and the LCL they left behind will be used for other projects.)

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Re: Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:35 am

View Original PostLavinius wrote:I am interested that you associate Rei's appearance with the restoration of Asuka- that makes a lot of sense, since there wouldn't seem to be any other reason for her to appear then rather than at any other time.

Shinji despaired that no one would ever return despite what Rei et al. said. He's stirred from his catatonia to find Asuka next to him. So Rei pops up, as if to say, "Well, we did tell you, didn't we? Have fun, kiddo."

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Re: Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:49 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Shinji despaired that no one would ever return despite what Rei et al. said. He's stirred from his catatonia to find Asuka next to him. So Rei pops up, as if to say, "Well, we did tell you, didn't we? Have fun, kiddo."


Not quite what I meant, but that is an amusing way to look at it.

Basically my thinking was "Since Lilith sent the many Rei doppelgängers to collect humanity's souls, perhaps as people chose to return to their original forms a Rei would lead them back to the world".

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Re: Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:23 am

The suggestion that Rei had something to do with Asuka's return has naturally come up before. I've never been able to get behind it. Like why would Rei want to help ensure the two of them run into each other after watching their last encounter play out resulting in Shinji attempting suicide by goddess?
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Re: Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:08 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:The suggestion that Rei had something to do with Asuka's return has naturally come up before. I've never been able to get behind it. Like why would Rei want to help ensure the two of them run into each other after watching their last encounter play out resulting in Shinji attempting suicide by goddess?


The entire point of the Instrumentality scene is that it acts as a massive epiphany for Shinji. His standoffish view on the outside world came from his belief that other people hated him and wished him ill, and much of that was simply born of his own insecurities and misunderstandings. Now that he's decided to try and interact with people, a logical next step is to try again with Asuka.

That flashback with the coffee pot? No way it actually ended with Shinji strangling Asuka, he didn't have the nerve. So we can discount at least that part as not being a memory. It's probably meant to show how Shinji viewed the event, or else his own twisted "how it may have gone". And even if we take that at face value, see the above point about post-3I being a do over for Shinji.

Also, at the risk of being pedantic, Rei did have something to do with Asuka's return - at least indirectly. Seeing as she put the opt out of Instrumentality into motion (even if Shinji made the choice, it's the mechanics of how Lilith works that make it manifest), the only reason Asuka can come back is because Lilith made it so. Also the fact that, if not for Rei, Asuka would be straight up dead.

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Re: Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:11 pm

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:Basically my thinking was "Since Lilith sent the many Rei doppelgängers to collect humanity's souls, perhaps as people chose to return to their original forms a Rei would lead them back to the world".

How does that work, though, when Asuka is already there when the scene begins? This isn't a Rei that appeared for Asuka; it's an incarnation that appears just long enough to Shinji to realize it's there and to look its way, at which point it vanishes. Very, very similar to the mystery Rei from episode #01, and presumably serving a similar function here.

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Re: Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:21 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:How does that work, though, when Asuka is already there when the scene begins? This isn't a Rei that appeared for Asuka; it's an incarnation that appears just long enough to Shinji to realize it's there and to look its way, at which point it vanishes. Very, very similar to the mystery Rei from episode #01, and presumably serving a similar function here.


The passage of time in Evangelion as a whole has always been a screwy ordeal. It's possible Rei has been there longer than Shinji realizes and simply doesn't notice her at first.

That said, having though pt about it your interpretation of what's going on does fit the scene better than mine.

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Re: Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:41 pm

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:The passage of time in Evangelion as a whole has always been a screwy ordeal. It's possible Rei has been there longer than Shinji realizes and simply doesn't notice her at first.

Rei makes a "plop!" splash sound when she appears. You can hear it right before Shinji turns his head.

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Re: Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:48 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Rei makes a "plop!" splash sound when she appears. You can hear it right before Shinji turns his head.


*rewatches scene*

Huh, so she does. I must have missed that the last time I watched it due to watching a lower quality version.

However, rewatching also makes it crystal clear that Rei wanted Shinji to notice Asuka, since she materializes in a spot where Shinji has to turn to where Asuka is to see her. Which definitely implies a connection.

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Re: Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:43 am

God, as man has known the concept, has had a 3 stage evolution that is reflected in Adam, Kaworu, Lilith, Rei, and their union and the death of their physical body. The story of Jesus' Transcendence and man's ultimate salvation through Him is played out on a literal level with the two Seeds of Life, and a bit of a more parallel, meta-physical level in a couple instances involving a lot of the same characters but with them filling different roles within that triad.

First is the "idiot" God that is simply raw libido, or creative force, responsible for creation. In NGE, these are the Seeds of Life, Adam and Lilith; in Judaism and Christianity it is the infinite light of God's being that fills the void without consciousness, as consciousness would mean the imposition of limitations on a being without any (look up Kabbalism, and more specifically, Ein Sof along with Ohr Ein Sof if you need more details about the concept). This infinite light, Ohr Ein Sof, is what leads to the divine emanations making up the Tree of Life, and therefore, the rest of creation... which, of course, includes the physical plane of existence.

What happens second is that God is embodied within flesh and blood, as man. In NGE, this is Adam as Kaworu, and Lilith as Rei. In Christianity in particular, this is Jesus Christ. Third in the evolution is the Transcendence of the flesh, and therefore, one's physical being and being reborn in a perfect, immortal body. In other words, the spirit or ghost that is said to reside in Jesus' followers after his Crucifixion and Transcendence of the flesh. This is what makes up the Holy Trinity of God the Father (blind libido), God the Son (God housed in flesh as the Son of Man), and God the Holy Spirit/Ghost (the "spirit" residing within the followers of God/Jesus). In NGE, this is the "Quantum" Reis we see, along with the forms of Rei and Kaworu we see speaking with Shinji after he rejects instrumentality. So, when it comes to NGE, the whole "spirit" aspect is taken a bit more literally.

Now, when it comes to the last one, what could be meant by "the spirit of God residing within the followers of Jesus"? To me, it's no different than how our beliefs, institutions, and cultures as human beings wind up Transcending their mortal, Earthly creators and begin to take on a kind of life of their own that will never end so long as, as Yui likes to say, "the Earth, the Moon, and the Sun still exist"... provided of course that human beings or beings capable of perceiving them still exist as well. I mean, our beliefs about and the very concept of God itself that we've created are literally capable of guiding our behavior and over time takes on various attributes from the collective of our unconscious beliefs and associations with it. How much more like a living being can something get than to change, influence change, and be capable of dying given our species goes extinct? Yet, it has no body or direct will we can perceive, so what could such an entity be to us? A spirit, of course.

Interestingly, we see this same parallel repeated, yet with the roles a bit more difficult to nail down exactly (no crucifixion pun intended), with Lilith, Yui Ikari (and perhaps the rest of humanity), and Unit-01 at the end of EOE. We see it again with the three aspects of Naoka Akagi and the Magi system, with her as a mother being the libido, her as a woman being housed in the flesh, and her as a scientist involving knowledge and information, which are the spirit or ghost. Really, it should be noted that arguments for the exact roles each aspect of these Triads plays can be made that all appear to be equally valid, depending on your perspective. The various unions that appear all stick out to me though (with them sometimes even being stacked on top of one another)... others like Yui, Unit-01, and Shinji as a piloting team (and I suppose the same can be said for the other two EVAs and pilots); Shinji, Unit-01+Yui, and the Lance of Longinus as the Tree of Life; GNR, the Tree of Life, and the Black Moon/alternatively, the collective Sea of LCL that was once humanity; and so on.

Rei and Kaworu are dead in the sense that they will not physically return to the Earth as beings housed in flesh, but they will live on, no matter the different names or ways the concept they embody is described. In other words, they are the hope that humanity can one day understand one another, and the words "I love you". That is to say, they are Humanity's hope itself for Salvation from and the transcendence of the sins inherent to their being: hate, malice, fear, pride, prejudice, violence and killing, etc.
Last edited by StrokeMeGoat on Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are Adam and Lilith "dead dead"?

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:33 pm

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:At the end of the Instrumentality section, Adam and Lilith tell Shinji they are the hope of mankind that dwells within their hearts (or something, the dialogue gets pretty weird man) and the GNR begins to crumble, signifying the death of the collective and creating the second primordial sea. One of the last images of the film is a Rei apparition over the sea, seemingly one of Lilith's quantum messengers traveling through time to give Asuka's back from the collective.

Their dialogue at the end of Instrumentality (at least for me) brings forth images of Adam and Lilith living on in the hearts of humanity, sort of a "Jesus lives in your heart" thing. In becoming one, if only for a brief period of time, all of humanity understood each other, so those who returned would have seen into the hearts of those around them, understanding them perfectly and making rebuilding the world easier. I think this perfect understanding is what Adam and Lilith meant, they're living on through what they did through Instrumentality, as perfect understanding of others, something none of the characters even came close to achieving until Instrumentality.

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:First is the "idiot" God that is simply raw libido, or creative force, responsible for creation

Would this technically be called, "bakami"? :shifty:
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