What is the inspiration/reasoning behind the Angel's design?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:14 pm

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Postby shinji_ryoji_89 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:13 pm

I was reading this: [url]http://www.cracked.com/article_18757_5-things-you-wont-believe-arent-in-bible_p2.html[/url] and on part 5, I guess it's easy to say that Evangelion was the first thing that came to mind. So I guess that if I go to heaven, I'll be meeting clockiel or something.

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Postby AyrYntake » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:41 am

I think you mean part 1?
[url]http://www.cracked.com/article_18757_5-things-you-wont-believe-arent-in-bible_p1.html[/url]
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Postby thewayneiac » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:12 am

As always, there's a big problem with the "Angel Ghost" theory:

The number of monoliths doesn't match the the number of dead Angels properly unless you count Israfel as two Angels. The problem is that this messes up the Angel count. Mankind would come out the 19th instead of the 18th. All known canon sources count him as just one Angel. The clear implication is that he has just one soul divided between the two cores. Thus there should only be 14, monoliths not 15 if these were supposed to be Angel Ghosts.

Also, they're saying things that it makes sense for Seele to say, given their duplicity towards Kaworu. Wouldn't the Angels appear as themselves and say something more like, "O.K. Mom, we were all defeated. Our only chance is for you to get in there and win this for us.!"

In Ep. 21, Fuyutsuki says "Seele itself, not the Comittee," not "All of Seele itself, not the Comittee." There are more Monoliths because they had a bigger budget.

This is certainly Seele. Now as to how they appear to him but not Misato.... your guess is as good as mine.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:05 am

I don't see a problem with a two-souled Angel being listed as one. Just look at the 18th. Clearly the parameters for delineating individual Angels are flexible. Sadamoto, for whatever he is worth, gives the Angel two cores when it's in fully combined form, so apparently he buys into the two-souled idea. Masayuki (who did all the storyboarding and stuff for 24') could have felt the same way, but I doubt we'll ever know. Israfel's case is probably doomed to ambiguity forever.

Saying that 15 monoliths only appear in #24 because of increased budget is a flawed argument, since only 12 appear in End of Evangelion, which was part of the same project. (And one would also expect ALL of Seele to show up for the moment they've all been waiting for; three being MIA for the Third Impact ceremony just doesn't seem to slice it.)

Obviously the dialogue in the lake scene isn't being spoken by Angels, but this could be one of those wacky two-things-happening-at-once scenes. Possibly, Kaworu's two major conflicting imperatives are being presented as once. He's at the site of the Angels' last stand, standing on the angel statue and contemplating his nature as one, as their ghosts surround him and make a silent plea. At the same time, he's thinking about what the committee (the only Seele members actually talking) told him, and his scripted role according to "the Lilin".

Something like that.
Last edited by Reichu on Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby shinji_ryoji_89 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:06 am

View Original PostAyrYntake wrote:I think you mean part 1?
[url]http://www.cracked.com/article_18757_5-things-you-wont-believe-arent-in-bible_p1.html[/url]


Yes, I did. I meant number 5 on Part 1. Sorry for the mix-up.

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Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?

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Postby The Flying Fortress » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:38 pm

We have a luminescent bird, an equally bright eel and lastly a boy, Yes, I know, you're going to say that they all represent a symbolic sequence of the angelic stereotype of Christianity and so it's not worth discussing, but the question is , This is the height of symbolism! , what happened ? , They ran out of imagination or something? , Where were those creative and mysterious aliens from before? I understand the 17th angel to be a kid because there's a justification in the plot, but the other two are just vague, that's what I guess what the creators were thinking:

"Okay, we need to create the last three angels, how about we make one more vague reference to Christianity as an angel's body?
- Great idea ! , Kaworu will be the body and the others ... hum ... others may be wings and a halo itself (they do not matter).

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Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?

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Postby Sachi » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:53 pm

You give Arael and Armisael too little credit. They're equally as important as Zeruel when it comes to character and plot development. While Zeruel marked a turning point for Shinji and Unit-01, Arael did the same for Asuka, and Armisael the same for Rei. Without those two, Kaworu's entrance and the rest of Ep 24 wouldn't have really worked, since Asuka needed to be out of commission, and Rei needed to start realizing her true identity.

Also, Armisael is potentially the most powerful Angel. Imagine if it has been successful in merging with Unit-00, and completed the Angel tower?
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Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:01 pm

I think the OP is referring only to their visual appearances, not to how they operate and interact. But I must confess that it has never occurred to me to associate them with specific aspects of religious angels.
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Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?

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Postby CommanderFish » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:03 pm

I'm pretty sure that OP is commenting more about the actual design of the angels rather than their significance to the story, if I understand correctly.

But even then I don't really agree. Arael looks pretty cool, imo. And Armisael is great because it sort of represents NGE's mix of science (with the double helix) and religion (the halo). And then it also gets pretty phallic, later on; so it touches just about all sides of Eva.

EDIT: got ninja'd by pwhodges, but you get the point
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Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?

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Postby The Flying Fortress » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:14 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I think the OP is referring only to their visual appearances, not to how they operate and interact.

Exactly

Specifically the question is why sacrificing the design of two angels to express a vague symbolism of Christianity, to me does not make sense.

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Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?

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Postby robersora » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:47 pm

I understand where you're coming from. Armisael and Arael were both completely featureless due to seemingly being comprised of light, but Ramiel was an octahedron which is also very abstract... Leliel was a zebra ball, Bardiel was bacterial goo and Iruel was a red-blinking Computervirus... which seems pretty abstract to me already.
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Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:10 pm

Personally, I find the later Angels scarier because of their appearance... they're lifeforms far more advanced than Lilin, or even the earlier Angels.
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Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:19 pm

View Original PostThe Flying Fortress wrote:Specifically the question is why sacrificing the design of two angels to express a vague symbolism of Christianity, to me does not make sense.


But they are not sacrificing anything. Their designs are maybe the best of all. In fact, the symbolism doesn't even bother or matter. So, I don't see any problem.

BTW, I'm an Armisael fanboy. It's the only angel that hasn't almost any weak spots, and boy do I wish we're shown more of that angel, because it's also the only one that left me with the feeling of curiosity. I wanna now more about that angel.
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Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?

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Postby Sachi » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:33 pm

Are these two Angels necessarily more Christian than the other Angels? Armisael is more of a double helix than a halo, and when also considering that it's the Angel of the Womb, the Angel is more associated with birth and reproduction, than anything necessary "angelic" or "christian". Meanwhile, other Angels are producing cross explosions.
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Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:10 pm

Well, considering all the Angel's names are referenced in some sort of religious texts, and simply the fact that they're called Angels means the connection was bound to happen sooner or later, but I wouldn't call them more religious than any of the others. As for their forms, Arael is the Angel of birds, so looking like glowing wings or a bird made from lightning. As for Armisael, I always thought of its double helix form as it symbolizing what humans are made up of/what makes life possible. As for Tabris being representative of free-will it seems the only logical form for him to take is of a human, the embodiment of free-will.

So basically, the last three Angels representing three parts of an Angel (and coincidentally God) is just happenstance.

Sachi wrote:Also, Armisael is potentially the most powerful Angel. Imagine if it has been successful in merging with Unit-00, and completed the Angel tower?
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Also found this fun list of all known Angels and Archangels. Thought it might be relevant or appreciated.
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Re: Why NECESSARILY do the last 3 angels have those appearances?

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Postby The Flying Fortress » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:16 am

Before there was only nomenclature as a reference to Christian angels, but look at Ramiel as an example, even though they were already vague, let's see:

'' Râmîêl (Aramaic: רעמאנל, Hebrew: רעמיאל, Greek: 'Ραμιήλ) is both fallen observer and angel in the apocryphal book of Enoch. Ramiel means "thunder of God" [1] of the Hebrew ra'am elements and El, "God"
 
Okay, I see just one deadly octahedron with assault skills who wants to get to Lilith, what does he have as a messenger of god in that? What message will it deliver?

As Arael is the angel of the birds, why does he have wings? , Why does he shine?, is it just because he's '' dinivo '' or something?, Because he's the angel of the birds? , Do we see him controlling the birds? , Is not he from another planet? I'm confused.

They simply take the names but do not delve into their meaning, this is a lazy job, Armisael and Arael were shaped to represent a vague symbolism, yes, it is casual, but pregoited.

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a possible inspiration for the design of Leliel

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Postby Blockio » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:20 am

During WWI, the US and british navy was experimenting with something called "dazzling camoflague". It consisted of irregular patterns of mostly stripes, usually dominated by black and white with a few other colors thrown in the mix.
a few examples  SPOILER: Show
Image
Image
Image


Unlike traditional camouflague, the purpose was not to disguise the ship, but rather to make it harder to identify the ship type and to throw off the aim of the vessels attacking it and increasing the chance of the ships artillery being missed by the incoming fire.
Sounds familiar? It should, because this is exactly what happens with Leliel, although in a different way: The black and white shadow tricks NERV and the pilots into thinking that it is the body (making it harder to identify the target), and thus attrackts all the fire, while the actual body is left unnoticed until it is too late (throwing off the aim and leaving the means of attacking undamaged)

Still not convinced? Then take a look at this camo pattern of the HMS Argus:
Image
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Re: a possible inspiration for the design of Leliel

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:38 am

In The Evangelion Style, Yasutaka Yoshimura attributes the design to the mod fashion trend of the 1960s in his article about 60's motifs in Evangelion.

Something to consider:

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Re: a possible inspiration for the design of Leliel

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Postby Blockio » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:31 am

Oh... well, there goes that theory.
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