What is the inspiration/reasoning behind the Angel's design?

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The Angels and the basis of their design

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Postby child-of-lillith » Wed Jul 28, 2004 12:31 pm

Ok.. so i am a bit of a nut for the angels.. i personally think some of the instances of the designs.. how they emerge... how they attack, or and in a couple of cases how they die is amazingly brilliant... i just want to hear your views... for instance Gaghiel (angel of fish) attacks from the water, Shamahel (angel of the sun) and Unit 01 are seen sillhoutted by teh setting sun when the angel is destroyed...
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Postby Xanatose » Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:36 pm

Damn, I'm so far behind in that Second Impact thread -- but this just takes me back to that. There I've been mentioning that a while ago I came to the theory that Anno may have been passing on some symbolic message with each Angel.

Certain symbols of their design are jewish or christian in orgin, but I theorize that other prominent aspects are more likely based on archtypes. An example of this is the 7th angel, who's core was shaped like a yin/yang. Clearly not a jedio/christian element. Another example is the 4th's phallic shape.

So I think at some points those angels were based on archtypes. The angel's aren't uniformly based on their names, after all. The 4th angel isn't the angel of the penis, after all, and the only real connection to it's position (it's name does not translate as "Angel of the Sun," but that's rather what it was charged with protecting by Yaweh) is that it attacks during the day. The 5th's not exactly connected to thunder either. But the 14th is connected to Might. Just in a round about way. It seems to be the archtype of the Knight's quest to slay the dragon; Shinji's psycological quest to find his sense of self, and who after overcoming his nuerosis, finds his Self and the reward that brings. (Of course, life rarely works out that easily, and Anno shows us this when things begin to go down from here on out, and never get better.)

By all this, I don't mean to suggest that Anno was influinced by Carl Jung's theories the most, but they clearly were in an influence on some aspects of the show, as was Sigmond Frued, the Jewish and Christian traditions, and perhaps existentialism and post-structualism. (I'm really not sure about those last ones, but it's been tossed around.)

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Postby child-of-lillith » Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:48 am

the seventh is actually the angel israfel... who is teh angel of music and petry... but sum people think there are two angels, one for music one for petry... as for the fourth... no idea where it comes from... the 16th angel (if have the right number) is sen as a large spinning circle... this is how the original Cherebrum looked before they acquired bows, arrows and rasy butts... the cherebrum were large circles of fire... the angel that takes over Unit 03 is thought to be based on some angels who desguised themselves as demons so they could enter hell, also.. it is interesting to note Unit 02 is possibly based on the Babylonian god Marduk, who had four eyes, and four ears, and two mouths... there is also talk that Unit 01 is based ona babylonian god... but i am yet to figure out which
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Postby Xanatose » Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:18 pm

I'm not quite sure how that was a response to what I wrote, but in a round'about way I think I understand what you meant. ^^;

You seem to be responding to my statement that the angel's don't seem to be so much based on the angel's they are named after. Well, I already said that I can certainly see the traditional influence on the Angel's descriptions for some, but not all. Aside from your notes, there is also some evidence that angels were at times described as geometic shapes, as the 4th angel was, and some were described as burning embers, like the 11th angel. But the 3rd angel, 6th angel, 7th angel, 10th, etc., do not look much like any angels, except for a few symbols, such as the gray mask that is it's face. That same image appears on the 6th angel as it emerges out of the ocean, and also appears under armor that covers the Eva-01's forehead.

But that note on the 13th angel is news to me. Do you know any specifics of the legend of angels that entered Hell as demons, or is this something you've heard over the internet? (which is not to suggest it's just a rumor ^^)

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Postby child-of-lillith » Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:59 pm

no specifics, got that from the Death and Rebirth commentary lol.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:36 pm

Xanatose wrote:An example of this is the 7th angel, who's core was shaped like a yin/yang.


Just to nitpick, but that's Israfel's face, not core.

child-of-lillith wrote:no specifics, got that from the Death and Rebirth commentary lol.


Be careful... A lot of what they say in that commentary is wrong, even if it SOUNDS credible. I've learned this the hard way.

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:28 pm

As have I. Forget what Amanda Winn Lee and Jason Lee say, Talieson Jaffe is the only one even remotely close to the mark. In his case, his understanding is much more metaphysical and occultic. This view was appropriate for a time, but now Gainax has diffused that line of thinking by debunking the religious implications and meaning in the show.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:51 am

The Eva Monkey wrote:Forget what Amanda Winn Lee and Jason Lee say, Talieson Jaffe is the only one even remotely close to the mark. In his case, his understanding is much more metaphysical and occultic. This view was appropriate for a time, but now Gainax has diffused that line of thinking by debunking the religious implications and meaning in the show.


Even so, it's still fun to research the religious stuff that Gainax ripped a lot of the show's material from.

My comment was actually referring to Mr. Jaffe. After I discovered that Rei, in episode #25', was NOT in the Sephirot Yesod after all as he had purported, I have to wonder if some of the other stuff he mentions is similarly flawed.

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Postby kosure » Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:38 pm

I was actually thinking about this today while watching the EoE commentary. The ADV people didn't make the series. So really, everything they think is just as much conjecture asanything anyone else might think.

As for the occult refrences, they're definetally there. Whether or not each peice of occult reffrence has the same meaning in Eva, doesn't matter much to me. The thing is that they are there. I'm sure Anno had a reason for it. (even if it was as random and meaningless as the cross explosions)

As for the Angels.

I've always really like Leilel. (see my livejournal [url]http://www.livejournal.com/~imstupid[/url]) In fact Leilel is one of my favorite charachters(?) of all time. Just tha fact that It wasn't actually there. Thats just awesome. Plus I really liked when Shinji was in the Sea of Dirac. I think that it really foreshadowed when Shinji was afloat in the sea of LCL wit Rei/Lillith/Adam in EoE.

I can't really find any information on Leilel, and religious or occult refrences, but i'd appreciate any if they exist.
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Postby Phaze » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:36 pm

Leliel's design really had more to do with Anno's knowledge of... I believe it was a branch of physics. The Sea of Dirac was formulated by some scientist...
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Postby Reichu » Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:36 pm

kosure wrote:I was actually thinking about this today while watching the EoE commentary. The ADV people didn't make the series. So really, everything they think is just as much conjecture asanything anyone else might think.


Yeah, but some conjecture is better than others.

I can't really find any information on Leilel, and religious or occult refrences, but i'd appreciate any if they exist.


Well, let's see my happy little angel book...

Leliel--one of the angelic rulers of the night.
[See Lailah.]

Laila(h) (Leliel, Lailahel, Layla)--the name is said to derive from a rabbinic exegesis of the world "lailah" (meaning night) in Job 3:3. According to The Zohar (Exodus) Lailah is "an angel appointed to guard the spirits at their birth." In Jewish legendary lore, Lailah is a demonic angel of night, the "prince of conception," to be compared with Lilith, demoness of conception. However, in Genesis Rabba 417 and in Sanhedrin 96a the story is that Lailah fought for Abraham when the patriarch battled kings--which would make Lailah a good, rather than a wicked, angel.

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Postby kosure » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:35 am

Reichu wrote:Yeah, but some conjecture is better than others.


I'm not saying it isn't, just that their conjectures are as subject to being flawed as ours. I think a lot of time, they have a lot of merit.


Leliel--one of the angelic rulers of the night.
[See Lailah.]

Laila(h) (Leliel, Lailahel, Layla)--the name is said to derive from a rabbinic exegesis of the world "lailah" (meaning night) in Job 3:3. According to The Zohar (Exodus) Lailah is "an angel appointed to guard the spirits at their birth." In Jewish legendary lore, Lailah is a demonic angel of night, the "prince of conception," to be compared with Lilith, demoness of conception. However, in Genesis Rabba 417 and in Sanhedrin 96a the story is that Lailah fought for Abraham when the patriarch battled kings--which would make Lailah a good, rather than a wicked, angel.


Thanks a lot. What book is that from? Theres this book out there called the occult encyclopedia, that i was thinking about getting, im sure Leilel would be in there.
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Angel Designs

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Postby Sachi » Tue May 08, 2007 11:32 pm

ok, everybody here should know that all animals have different coats or skin color to fit their enviorment (except for us humans apparently) as a camoflauge.
then, why do most of the Angels seem to really stand out in any Enviorments its placed in.

Matariel has giant, fake eyes all over it, and its a giant 4 legged spider. how would that work???

i dont think Sachiel was very subtle floating around in the water.

Shamshel looks like a giant (you know), who's not gonna see that?

Gaghiel fits in with its enviorment the best, because its like a fish, with smooth(?) skin and blends in with the water.

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Postby Big Panda » Wed May 09, 2007 12:03 am

'cause that way is cooler
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Postby Ayana-Me » Wed May 09, 2007 12:10 am

Stylistically, the angels are consistent with the post-modern influences on the animation. I gather that the creators wanted to give them an exotic feel, just to make them more distinct images.

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Postby Sachi » Wed May 09, 2007 12:12 am

cant get more exotic then being a halo (16th angel) huh?

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Postby felineki » Wed May 09, 2007 12:28 am

Well, the reason we see animals that are suited to their environments is because of the processes of adaptation and evolution. Angels don't partake in this process. Their forms, rather than being the product of many generations' adaptations to best fit their sourrounding conditions, are the product of their minds. See Misato's comment about the Angels being humans that abandoned human form in EoE and Gendou's line about the mind forming the body in 26 (the line that's accompanied by that really nifty animation of Shinji morphing into a bunch of different things).

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Postby Ornette » Wed May 09, 2007 1:52 am

Sachiel_13 wrote:cant get more exotic then being a halo (16th angel) huh?

Or an octahedron...

But Armisael could at least change its shape, and I presume that while it was a halo, it was more a double helix ring.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed May 09, 2007 2:04 am

felineki wrote:Well, the reason we see animals that are suited to their environments is because of the processes of adaptation and evolution. Angels don't partake in this process. Their forms, rather than being the product of many generations' adaptations to best fit their sourrounding conditions, are the product of their minds. See Misato's comment about the Angels being humans that abandoned human form in EoE and Gendou's line about the mind forming the body in 26 (the line that's accompanied by that really nifty animation of Shinji morphing into a bunch of different things).
Not to mention Earth was never "created" for them. Adam didn't have time to format the Earth for ADO during 2I so they were left wandering around in an LDO based Earth.
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Postby Operation Yashima » Wed May 09, 2007 4:05 am

I know that most animals, even humans, are evolved in some way to blend in/suit themselves to their environment, but being a 40-2000 foot monster sometimes means it is kinda harder to blend in...and it also means you don't suit the environment, the environment suits YOU. Hence you are allowed to be as colourful and as weirdass shaped as you want.


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