Rewatching the Rebuilds, and my thoughts

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Rewatching the Rebuilds, and my thoughts

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Postby Ray » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:15 am

Once 4.0 comes out and gives us a satisfying conclusion


:hitthetable: :rofl:

Yeah. Like that's gonna happen. Anno is all about unanswered questions and coming to your own conclusions. Closure and satisfaction are the furthest thing from his mind. He's going to leave Shinji and the audience disappointment. and the message is ultimately going to be about learning to live with it.

So if he was destined to fail and endure eternal suffering, then the others should join him in it.


Anno wont do it. But for me personally, I would just have Shinji become a bad guy. The entire universe is conspiring against him. His friends and family have abandoned and mistreated him at every turn, or are dead/have outgrown him. He's never going to be able to go back to having a normal life ever again after this.

It would be immensely Catharic for me if he just gave up even the pretense of trying to be a good human being and just embraced his dark side and became an Irredeemable Supervillain just as bad/worse than his father. If he's never going to be redeemed and will have to spend the rest of his life apologizing for something that wasn't his fault anyway, if theres no hope for him being forgiven, if the world as Eva really is that cruel. Then he should just give up.

Yes it would be a terrible message to send. It's the only one that would be in any way emotionally or intellectually honest. It would be great to end the series on a tragic and grimdark note. The world has basically put him in a position where him being a monster is the only way he'll ever be allowed any sort of autonomy or control over his own destiny ever again. He can either spend the rest of his life miserable, or he can hurt the world back. Either by directly lashing out against it, or more in character for Shinji. In a passive Aggressive way.

I imagine a scene like in EOE after the hospital room scene. Where they need him to pilot again, and he outright refuses. Just to spite the world who ruined his life.

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Re: Rewatching the Rebuilds, and my thoughts

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Postby Stillborn » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:38 am

Another jaded man.
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Re: Rewatching the Rebuilds, and my thoughts

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:20 am

View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy wrote:Anno has created a scenario in which it is impossible to assign blame to any one person — and impossible not to empathize with each of them — but it's also impossible to dismiss their faults.

Parts of this forum disprove that - though that's not because of the film, but rather from blind misreading of it.

Once 4.0 comes out and gives us a satisfying conclusion, 3.0 will be viewed in a much better light. We'll all laugh about how much it pissed off the fanbase when it first came out.

A consummation devoutly to be wished - but we shall see...
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Postby Stillborn » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:20 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Parts of this forum disprove that - though that's not because of the film, but rather from blind misreading of it.


Of course we, mere heretics and pagans, copuld never properly interpret your god's work like you do XD
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Re: Rewatching the Rebuilds, and my thoughts

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Postby kuribo-04 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:47 am

Yes it would be a terrible message to send. It's the only one that would be in any way emotionally or intellectually honest

I couldn't disagree more. I think in a movie that would come across as very exaggerated for drama's or shock's sake.
I don't see Shinji's character as somebody who would do that, and I'm sure most people wouldn't.
Even in EoE he was -in theory- trying to help Asuka.
I think we have very different views of Shinji.
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Re: Rewatching the Rebuilds, and my thoughts

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Postby xanderkh » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:19 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Of course we, mere heretics and pagans, copuld never properly interpret your god's work like you do XD


SPOILER: Show
Image


Just because we actually try to remain optimistic towards Evangelion doesn't mean we think Anno is a "God". Stop saying we pander to Anno just because we have a different opinion then you.
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Postby ErgoProxy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:14 pm

He is right though. A contemporary artwork is made to be contemplated by the audience and if author is serious about that, s/he grants the audience full freedom of coming up with various interpretations of it, ranking none of them above another and concealing the meaning s/he personally gave to it. So if someone is a tip-top 100% sure about his or her interpretation being Teh True One, he's not discussing an artwork, but a kitsch.

As for Shinji, you can't expect from a human being, who was forced into inhumane conditions, humane reactions afterwards, because human brain is an elastic structure and it – guess what – adapts to the environment. So I think Ray is right too, though I can't say that I'm happy with that.
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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:52 pm

View Original PostErgoProxy wrote:He is right though. A contemporary artwork is made to be contemplated by the audience and if author is serious about that, s/he grants the audience full freedom of coming up with various interpretations of it, ranking none of them above another and concealing the meaning s/he personally gave to it. So if someone is a tip-top 100% sure about his or her interpretation being Teh True One, he's not discussing an artwork, but a kitsch.

Is it really considered a right move to have his audience come up with their own answers about Evangelion instead of giving it to them straight, and save them the trouble of over analysing things?
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Postby ErgoProxy » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:34 am

Right or wrong in art? I'd say I could discuss is this move beautiful or ugly.

As a side note: if there were straight answers, this and other Evangelion communities would implode into religion and politics warhell, with occasional smalltalk about Mari's ass. :tongue: Instead we can discuss, I don't know – eg., is this Ramielesque, tesseract coffin really a coffin, or maybe a kind of probe sent into the Q-continuum by some alt-universe Nerv Martians.
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Re: Rewatching the Rebuilds, and my thoughts

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:31 am

View Original PostErgoProxy wrote:A contemporary artwork is made to be contemplated by the audience and if author is serious about that, s/he grants the audience full freedom of coming up with various interpretations of it,

Death of the author doesn't mean the author has to agree to die (even though Anno does expect people to think about outcomes he doesn't illustrate).

ranking none of them above another and concealing the meaning s/he personally gave to it.

Not spelling things out in words of one syllable is not equivalent to concealing.

So if someone is a tip-top 100% sure about his or her interpretation being Teh True One, he's not discussing an artwork, but a kitsch.

And that applies on both sides of this disagreement, I'd say. Of course we all have our own reasons to interpret work in one way or another; but I really feel that the fashion (for so it is) of discarding elements of the author's work to allow interpretations which don't otherwise sit well with it is a step too far - it belittles the author rather than respecting what they have done, turning all interpretation into a kind of fanfic.
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Postby kuribo-04 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:33 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Is it really considered a right move to have his audience come up with their own answers about Evangelion instead of giving it to them straight, and save them the trouble of over analysing things?

Anno wants us to think.
It makes Evangelion fun too, and is the reason we are even on this forum.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
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Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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Postby Blockio » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:24 am

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:Anno wants us to think.
It makes Evangelion fun too, and is the reason we are even on this forum.

If Evangelion didnt make people think, I highly doubt it would still be relevant
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Postby Shinji Ikari Expy » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:20 pm

So the only believable and intellectually honest ending is for Shinji to become a cliched comic book supervillain? Suffering emotional pain and alienation does not turn people into villainous mass murderers; this is a silly, overused trope in anime and superhero movies.

When I say "satisfying ending," I mean something that will give Shinji the same kind of epiphany that he had in the other endings — that his life is worth living and that he shouldn't shut himself off from other people. Something that brings an end to his character arc. It doesn't mean straightforward or dumbed down.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:16 pm

I don't think any of the characters deserve a happy ending. None of them do.
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Postby Blockio » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:52 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I don't think any of the characters deserve a happy ending. None of them do.

I really shouldnt be surprised anymore... but wow.
If any character from any anime "deserves" a happy ending, it would be the Eva pilots, seeing just how much shit they have been through
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Postby Stillborn » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:01 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I really shouldnt be surprised anymore... but wow.
If any character from any anime "deserves" a happy ending, it would be the Eva pilots, seeing just how much shit they have been through


Nah. Anno would make it clear that they brough it upon themselves.
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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:58 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Nah. Anno would make it clear that they brough it upon themselves.

I couldn't agree more. Everything that has happened to them was their fault, collectively and individually.
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Postby Ray » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:20 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I really shouldnt be surprised anymore... but wow.
If any character from any anime "deserves" a happy ending, it would be the Eva pilots, seeing just how much shit they have been through


It's not that the characters don't deserve a happy ending. They do. But that would defeat the point of Eva. The point of Eva is to make you feel bad about the world and the characters to teach you a lesson about human relationships. Nobody takes a lesson to heart when the character is allowed to change and become better, people do take a lesson to heart when the character refuses to change and his actions have devastating consequences.

Greek tragedy. If Oedipus didn't bang his mom, the story wouldn't resonate with an audience centuries later. So giving Shinji and the Eva pilots anything resembling a happy ending wouldn't make the story compelling. and if Anno wants the rebuilds to be remembered as being even half as compelling as EOE was. He'll have to end it on a note that makes the audience angry.
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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:13 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:It's not that the characters don't deserve a happy ending. They do. But that would defeat the point of Eva. The point of Eva is to make you feel bad about the world and the characters to teach you a lesson about human relationships. Nobody takes a lesson to heart when the character is allowed to change and become better, people do take a lesson to heart when the character refuses to change and his actions have devastating consequences.

Greek tragedy. If Oedipus didn't bang his mom, the story wouldn't resonate with an audience centuries later. So giving Shinji and the Eva pilots anything resembling a happy ending wouldn't make the story compelling. and if Anno wants the rebuilds to be remembered as being even half as compelling as EOE was. He'll have to end it on a note that makes the audience angry.

And I guess that's why I have a bit of trouble believing that the characters such as Asuka would be able to change for the better, because we weren't sbown that to be certain or to be totally convinced. As a result, everything hangs on pure speculation, half of which may not be %100 accurate and true to the characters.
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Postby ErgoProxy » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:22 pm

Hate to agree with Ray again. Generally, if someone desires a happy ending, s/he can take those characters and build a paradise for them – in his or her own fanfiction. From this point of view, Anno will do his job well, if he delivers an emotional blow to all of us, doing something fairly unjust to the characters. Trivially, if he develops them to change for better and thus reach some heart-warming redemption, only to get them all brutally (and I'm not saying: physically) destroyed afterwards due tor all the humane mistakes they'd made beforehand – and that's because You are (not) allowed, or something like that.

BTW, talking about sexual motifs in Greek drama – I can (not) stop laughing at the title of 2.0. (Nie) możesz się dalej posuwać – You can (not) go on masturbating – that's the beauty of my native language, I'm telling you. :devil:
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