SEELE and Gendo's Conflicting "Scripts"

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aependell
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SEELE and Gendo's Conflicting "Scripts"

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Postby aependell » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:59 am

I can understand and accept that most of what really goes on in Evangelion lacks any sort of solid explanation. It's a sort of surreal reality where "how something happened" isn't really the right question, the only question that really matters is "what does this event mean for the characters?". All the further lore of Evangelion is just a special treat for unhealthily obsessed dedicated fanboys, as far as I know.

However, while I can accept not having answers to most of the questions (What the hell is the Lance of Longinus made of, and how does it do what it does? What were the FAR? Why did they want to populate the Universe? How was SEELE formed? How did they get their hands on the Dead Sea Scrolls? What are the Dead Sea Scrolls?), one things keeps bothering me.

And that's the "scripts" of Gendo Ikari and SEELE. It's not superfluous like most of the lore, it's mentioned many times in the show. But it's got me going in circles trying to figure it out, and I was wondering if the seasoned members here had any concise answers.

So, Gendo's script differs from SEELE's in some way drastic enough that he'd want to keep his own plans secret from them. But, isn't both their goals ultimately Human Instrumentality? I know Gendo only wants to achieve Instrumentality so he can see his wife Yui again, but what do his motivations have to do with anything? If it's just the same end goal, why does he have to keep his plans secret from SEELE?

I mean, I suppose you could say, based on the SEELE ending in NGE2, that SEELE's plan was to use Kaworu to manipulate Instrumentality so that only they got to become a divine being, but I have a feeling that wasn't something they were thinking about back when they were making the show. I've heard that Hideaki Anno wrote the show episode-by-episode anyways, I don't think he was thinking that far ahead. Unless he was and I'm stupid.

And, the resolution to those plans has me confused as hell too. So, Unit 01 is necessary for Instrumentality? Why, exactly? I've heard plenty of sources saying that Unit 01 was the only Eva modeled after Lilith instead of Adam, like the others. So... would that mean that merging Unit 01 with Lilith would just complete Lilith's body? Is it that simple? That doesn't seem like the answer, though, since Lilith has shown a clear ability to regenerate its own body... Does Unit 01 have some other part of Lilith contained within it? Is it the fact that Unit 01 has a human soul in its core, like that's the catalyst for opening the floodgates to suck up all of humanity's souls? Again, that seems like a wrong answer, I can't imagine Lilith not possessing the power to just open the Doors of Guf of their own will.

And why was Gendo so freaked out about Rei merging with Lilith to create the Giant Naked Rei? Was he not intending on her merging with Lilith? But... when Rei merged with Lilith, she did the thing and the stuff to start Instrumentality, which... was his goal, right? Was he just pissed off that she took his hand? XD I'm son genuinely confused by what their actual damn plans were and how they were conflicting.

Maybe I'm a complete idiot and I missed some simple detail that would explain all of it to me. Maybe there's some other thread on this board discussing the same thing that I couldn't find. Ugh.

Great site, btw, I've always had a soft spot for phpBB boards.

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Re: SEELE and Gendo's Conflicting "Scripts"

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Postby AdamMalkobitch » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:41 am

View Original Postaependell wrote:And why was Gendo so freaked out about Rei merging with Lilith to create the Giant Naked Rei? Was he not intending on her merging with Lilith? But... when Rei merged with Lilith, she did the thing and the stuff to start Instrumentality, which... was his goal, right? Was he just pissed off that she took his hand? XD I'm son genuinely confused by what their actual damn plans were and how they were conflicting.

This is the one question of yours I can answer; by accepting Gendo and fusing with Adam without taking his hand, Gendo and Rei would have fused instead of Rei and Lilith, giving Gendo control of Third Impact and Instrumentality. I'm going off on a limb here, but I think that SEELE's script differs in that with their vision of Instrumentality, they would've been in control. No idea how though, as either a vanilla Angel or Kaworu fusing with Lilith's body would've had no physical contact with SEELE. Maybe Kaworu or a vanilla Angel would seek out Keel as Rei+Lilith seeked out Shinji and given him control? Maybe? Possibly? :???:
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Re: SEELE and Gendo's Conflicting "Scripts"

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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:49 am

Fuyutsuki summarizes the differences (in typical opaque NGE manner) by asking, "Will Eva-01 become the Ark that lets humanity ride out the nothingness of Third Impact or the demon that destroys us all?"

The "ark" plan is what Yui, Gendo, and Fuyutsuki are going for. They have, for whatever reason, accepted that Third Impact is inevitable. It also seems likely that they've concluded that humanity temporarily experiencing Instrumentality isn't an entirely bad thing. So, they've envisioned 3I/HIP as a sort of cleansing experience, for both the world and the human race itself. Third Impact is a purifying Flood-type event, and humanity gets to have a shared character-building experience on board the "ark" that is Eva-01. When it's over, everybody goes about their lives once more. Except for Gendo, who's going to stay in the Ark with Yui forever.

Seele think humanity as it exists is a dead end, so they want to revert us back to our primordial state, a singular spiritual being called Adam Kadmon. It's explained near the beginning of EoE that Lilith herself cannot be used because the original Spear was lost, so they're forced to use Lilith's clone Eva-01 and a bunch of replica Spears instead. If Seele had gotten their wish, Instrumentality would have permanently reconstituted our souls into Adam Kadmon using Eva-01 as a vessel. As Fuyutsuki said, Eva-01 would have become the vehicle of our destruction, since Homo sapiens would be no more.


Gendo was freaking out because he never expected Rei to betray him. He had groomed her to be an obedient puppet, hoping it would guarantee him control over Third Impact. Losing that control means not only that his hopes of reunion with Yui are no longer guaranteed, but that Seele's defeat is no longer guaranteed. And indeed -- at least at first, Shinji's ego produces an outcome that Seele is totally okay with.

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Re: SEELE and Gendo's Conflicting "Scripts"

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Postby aependell » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:16 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkobitch wrote:This is the one question of yours I can answer; by accepting Gendo and fusing with Adam without taking his hand, Gendo and Rei would have fused instead of Rei and Lilith, giving Gendo control of Third Impact and Instrumentality. I'm going off on a limb here, but I think that SEELE's script differs in that with their vision of Instrumentality, they would've been in control. No idea how though, as either a vanilla Angel or Kaworu fusing with Lilith's body would've had no physical contact with SEELE. Maybe Kaworu or a vanilla Angel would seek out Keel as Rei+Lilith seeked out Shinji and given him control? Maybe? Possibly? :???:

Ah, that's a good point! Rei seeked out Shinji because she loved him, and Kaworu might have seeked out SEELE. But, then again, I heard from someone on /r/evangelion a compelling argument that SEELE intended for Shinji to kill Kaworu, so his mental stability would be even further deteriorated, so I don't know if Kaworu could fuse with Lilith if that was the case.

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Re: SEELE and Gendo's Conflicting "Scripts"

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Postby aependell » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:20 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote: It's explained near the beginning of EoE that Lilith herself cannot be used because the original Spear was lost, so they're forced to use Lilith's clone Eva-01 and a bunch of replica Spears instead. If Seele had gotten their wish, Instrumentality would have permanently reconstituted our souls into Adam Kadmon using Eva-01 as a vessel.

Now this might sound especially stupid, but... why is the Lance important to Instrumentality? Was it because the Lance fused with Unit 01 to create the "Tree of Life"? And is Unit 01 becoming the Tree of Life the method with which SEELE intends to use it for a vessel?

If they felt a need to create fake Lances, then I guess they just... didn't know the original Lance would fly back to Unit 01 at the beginning of Third Impact?

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Re: SEELE and Gendo's Conflicting "Scripts"

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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:34 pm

Shinji's mental (in)stability was so integral to Seele's plans that they ordered the JSSDF to assassinate the Eva pilots on sight. In other words, Shinji couldn't have mattered less to them. When they're dealt a hand that happens to have Shinji stuck to it, they have no problem destroying his mind on the spot to get what they want.

It's never quite explained why the Spear is important to HIP. Seems like there are multiple things going on. First, we know that the Spear is so powerful it can keep Seeds of Life in check, and so just on that level it's an ideal tool for bending gods to one's will. Past that, we see Spears used in two main ways:

(A) Replicas are used to impale Eva-01 through the palms.
(B) The original Spear is merged with Eva-01 to create the Tree of Life.

I attempt to provide explanations for both here. I can dig up more detailed posts if needed.

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Re: SEELE and Gendo's Conflicting "Scripts"

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:13 pm

Gendo wanted to defy Seele by preventing instrumentality, but Rei didn't trust Gendo to make that decision, so she gave the power to Shinji who, after some difficulty, made the right call.
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