Eva Anatomy & Physiology: 2018 Edition

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu May 24, 2018 7:57 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:* Well, correction. It's possible that the red peg-teeth retreat INTO the jaw armor when the real teeth are visible. There's one cut in EoE, the close-up of Eva-01 barfing up the Spear of Longinus, that lends some credence to this. Yamashita's illustration for the cover of Newtype 100% also depicts the mandibular peg-teeth as being nested within the armor, as opposed to extending above the "lip" as expected -- further suggesting that the things can shift up and down. This still leaves the question of how exactly the peg-teeth go about retreating out of sight when it's dramatically appropriate -- as in, what causes it to occur. Maybe there's a little switch that Yui can push with her tongue... :nyao:


For what it's worth, you can see that happen during 1.0 when Unit 01 opens her mouth for the first time!
SPOILER: Show
Image
Image
Image

There's that new garbled mess inside the "teeth" that I can't make sense of, but it never appears again after this scene, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Eva Anatomy & Physiology: 2018 Edition

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Postby Reichu » Thu May 24, 2018 9:16 pm

BlueBasilisk: I made a brightened GIF of the mouth-opening for the hell of it:

SPOILER: Show
Image


By "garbled mess", I assume you're referring to the red things I've been calling "peg-teeth" for lack of anything better? ("Peg" not because they look like pegs, but because they're used to hold the jaws shut.) They received a bit of an overhaul for Jo, most notably with the addition of the flexible "roots" and a change away from the original locking mechanism. I'm not sure how the latter is supposed to work in this version, but in the original...

Image

See the holes on the front "incisors" here? On the right, the top "tooth" nests into the bottom one, meaning the holes overlap. I'm pretty sure the broken rod you see flying out of Sho's mouth is originally fixed inside the overlapping holes, bolting the jaws shut. Would be worthwhile to translate Yamashita's notes sometime. Might play a bit with that tonight...

Entirely possible I missed something obvious you were trying to point out to me, in which case give me a gentle smack.

(Incidentally, kind of dumb how they bothered to give the peg-teeth a fancy overhaul, only to have them only last the one sequence. Trivia for anyone who doesn't have the Ha Groundworks: They were originally supposed to appear in the 9th Angel encounter, but any genga that already had them got corrected to substitute in those insufferable ACTUALLY RED ACTUAL TEETH. Yes, I know she's not going to be eating anybody this time and you don't need the lovely contrast of red against white, but... red fucking enamel. Unbelievable! Why does that edgelord Eva-13 get to have white teeth while our lady Eva-01 gets screwed over like this?)

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Re: Eva Anatomy & Physiology: 2018 Edition

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Postby Neepa » Thu May 24, 2018 11:02 pm

Edge Lord 13... :D

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Re: Eva Anatomy & Physiology: 2018 Edition

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sat May 26, 2018 11:43 am

I'm still not sure there's anything too weird about Unit-02's skin. I always assumed that it's supposed to be more of a true black in-universe, and the use of a more blue shade is to allow better detail and contrast, like how Misato's hair is slightly purple instead of true black when all other actual Lilin (ie not Rei or Kaworu) have realistic hair colour. Mind you, completely black skin seems weird as well, but could be entirely within the norm for FAR skin colours since we never see one in any media.

View Original PostReichu wrote:(Incidentally, kind of dumb how they bothered to give the peg-teeth a fancy overhaul, only to have them only last the one sequence. Trivia for anyone who doesn't have the Ha Groundworks: They were originally supposed to appear in the 9th Angel encounter, but any genga that already had them got corrected to substitute in those insufferable ACTUALLY RED ACTUAL TEETH. Yes, I know she's not going to be eating anybody this time and you don't need the lovely contrast of red against white, but... red fucking enamel. Unbelievable! Why does that edgelord Eva-13 get to have white teeth while our lady Eva-01 gets screwed over like this?)


Jo in general has a bunch of decisions that seem odd in hindsight, largely down to it being far more faithful slavish to the anime than its successors. The Berserker sequence in general becomes something of a red herring given its replacement with the Awakening, and with Q's new version of what Yui is to Unit-01.

But il stop there because I don't want to make this thread go astray a second time.

Based on what we learn of Unit-01 later on I'm not sure her teeth actually are enamel. They might be made of the same substance as her core. I do agree that it looks awful though, and I can't help but wonder why they did that.

Which reminds me that Ha and Q add an extra layer of confusion to the eye debate. Both Awakening sequences show the yellow eye slits actually swelling into the spherical eyes, which makes it look like Unit-01 and 13 (is it Unit-13 or just 13? If seen both) have their eyes shut all the time and there's some kind of luminescent piece over them. 13 in particular gas it change colour when Shinji boots Kaworu from the controls, showing it's mechanical... but it still swells into the organic eyeballs.

Re:MP Eva faces, I hadn't realized the material on the arms was rubberized since I assumed it was armour, but in hindsight that makes far more sense as it allows more range of motion. That said, in several shots they still appear to have a metal piece over their teeth as opposed to the actual teeth, so there must be some mechanical components there.

... And now my head has gone to the fact Bardiel's arm covering being able to stretch along with its arms.

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Re: Eva Anatomy & Physiology: 2018 Edition

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Postby Reichu » Sat May 26, 2018 1:06 pm

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:I'm still not sure there's anything too weird about Unit-02's skin. I always assumed that it's supposed to be more of a true black in-universe

The "stylized black" argument mainly pertains to colors like blue being used as highlights. This doesn't even work for Misato's hair (which we had a long and painful thread about at one point...) since both the base color and the highlights are clearly purple. Now, take another look at Eva-02.

SPOILER: Show
Image


You've got highlights, mid-tones, and shadows all present and accounted for -- and they're all quite distinctly blue-grey or blue. (If it was meant to be black or something close to it, you'd be seeing tones more along the lines of those glimpsed on Mark.06 in Ha.)

I don't think there's any need to explain this away. The vivid purple color of the blood implies that it's regular red Eva blood with something else added to it -- something blue. Since the skin is also blue, this suggests that this 02-exclusive "additive" is also present in the skin.

Speaking of the skin, you made a comment earlier about how the weird bubbling flesh in this cut suggests regeneration. Incidentally, this is what I wanted to believe the first time I watched the film... But the flesh already looks all weird and bubbly at the very start of the cut, the moment before she reactivates. If it were actually regeneration, we'd expect to see the bubbling happen actively, not be present from the start and just sit there doing nothing. (I'm not really sure what it's supposed to represent since this shot is visually such a mess and the face never looks like this again.)

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sat May 26, 2018 7:45 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The "stylized black" argument mainly pertains to colors like blue being used as highlights. This doesn't even work for Misato's hair (which we had a long and painful thread about at one point...) since both the base color and the highlights are clearly purple. Now, take another look at Eva-02.

You've got highlights, mid-tones, and shadows all present and accounted for -- and they're all quite distinctly blue-grey or blue. (If it was meant to be black or something close to it, you'd be seeing tones more along the lines of those glimpsed on Mark.06 in Ha.)

I don't think there's any need to explain this away. The vivid purple color of the blood implies that it's regular red Eva blood with something else added to it -- something blue. Since the skin is also blue, this suggests that this 02-exclusive "additive" is also present in the skin.


I will admit you do have a point and I'm definitely grasping at straws a bit here. I just don't want to write off certain skin tones as outside natural possibility amongst Evas when we only have 2 examples out of 14 (16 if you count Adam and Lilith since their "natural" states are never seen either) since that really isn't enough to assume they would all have a single skin tone. An additive being applied to Unit-02 also raises the question of why none of the subsequent 11 Units received it as well.

Speaking of the skin, you made a comment earlier about how the weird bubbling flesh in this cut suggests regeneration. Incidentally, this is what I wanted to believe the first time I watched the film... But the flesh already looks all weird and bubbly at the very start of the cut, the moment before she reactivates. If it were actually regeneration, we'd expect to see the bubbling happen actively, not be present from the start and just sit there doing nothing. (I'm not really sure what it's supposed to represent since this shot is visually such a mess and the face never looks like this again.)


You're definitely right about the face being a mess. Apart from the eyes seemingly not having irises, it appears to have incredibly crooked teeth, with at least one growing into a spot with no gap. It doesn't look like the jaws line up particularly well either, giving it a massive overbite. And, again, the brain matter looks like anything but. Something that does catch my eye is the bubbling flesh looks to be growing over the damaged helmet, in a manner where it almost looks like the head is too big to fit.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the bubbling was intended to be the healing factor at work and it simply got badly rendered. As you pointed out before, the entire MP Eva battle is a Cluster-frag of continuity and animation errors. Given her head looks less damaged subsequently I do assume some healing was supposed to have taken place and that scene just did a terrible job representing that.

Speaking of the healing factor, it's probably the most intriguing feature of the Evas. As I've previously noted, it seems capable of repairing pretty extensive tissue injuries, but not replacing completely lost body parts, hence why Zeruel's arm was necessary for Unit-01 to regrow her own(though Lilith does seem capable of regrowing her lost legs, but that may be down to whatever they did to her to make her an endless source of LCL). We also know it isn't the product of the Fruit of Life, because it's displayed by Evas that lack it and not displayed by the S2-equipped MP Evas. I assume it's partly down to AT-Field stuff, partly down to being,side of particle wave matter, and maybe partly genetic, but I'm not sure if there's more to it than that.

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Postby Reichu » Sat May 26, 2018 11:21 pm

@ACGT-Samael: The brains looking like "couscous" as you mentioned is something I've got absolutely nothing for. Even the damned MP Evas have normal-looking brains.

About the irises, there's a reason you can't see them anymore:

Image

(I love the horrible teeth.)

ACGT-Samael wrote:An additive being applied to Unit-02 also raises the question of why none of the subsequent 11 Units received it as well.

"Production model" feels like quite the misnomer, since on a morphological level Eva-02 is the weirdest and most experimental of the original Eva line-up. The American branches weren't in any hurry to repeat the results of Dr. Soryu-Zeppelin and company. I guess you could blame this on an American need to do their own thing. But, then, depending on the exact version of the Eva-02 face design you consult, she does look kind of fucked up. Maybe it was as simple as the intended genetic enhancements having a lot of undesirable side effects that weren't obvious until fairly late in the "production" process, and the Eva-02 we know is the least deformed thing they were able to recover from the whole flawed endeavor.

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sun May 27, 2018 8:03 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:@ACGT-Samael: The brains looking like "couscous" as you mentioned is something I've got absolutely nothing for. Even the damned MP Evas have normal-looking brains.

About the irises, there's a reason you can't see them anymore:

Image

(I love the horrible teeth.)


It does seem very odd. Rebuild definitely depicted Unit-02 with a more human looking brain.

The teeth work to give her a more grotesque feel, but again they seem strange in the context of Unit-01's far more normal looking teeth.

"Production model" feels like quite the misnomer, since on a morphological level Eva-02 is the weirdest and most experimental of the original Eva line-up. The American branches weren't in any hurry to repeat the results of Dr. Soryu-Zeppelin and company. I guess you could blame this on an American need to do their own thing. But, then, depending on the exact version of the Eva-02 face design you consult, she does look kind of fucked up. Maybe it was as simple as the intended genetic enhancements having a lot of undesirable side effects that weren't obvious until fairly late in the "production" process, and the Eva-02 we know is the least deformed thing they were able to recover from the whole flawed endeavor.


You just gave me flashbacks to Alien: Resurrection and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

That said, even Unit-03 (and going by supplemental material Unit-04 since they're always depicted as twins) still have really long, distended jaws that make them look like they have a massive underbite. Almost every Eva derived from Adam is messed up in some way, and I honestly wonder if the original contact experiment may have contaminated the samples they're working with and is messing everything up.

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Postby Blockio » Sun May 27, 2018 1:21 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Speaking of the skin, you made a comment earlier about how the weird bubbling flesh in this cut suggests regeneration. Incidentally, this is what I wanted to believe the first time I watched the film... But the flesh already looks all weird and bubbly at the very start of the cut, the moment before she reactivates. If it were actually regeneration, we'd expect to see the bubbling happen actively, not be present from the start and just sit there doing nothing. (I'm not really sure what it's supposed to represent since this shot is visually such a mess and the face never looks like this again.)

I always thought that the bubbling flesh is supposed to show that the lance replica was glowing hot when entering and caused the flesh to boil

Reichu wrote: Why does that edgelord Eva-13 get to have white teeth while our lady Eva-01 gets screwed over like this?

Haha, glad Im not the only one who sees Eva 13 as the Edgelord of mecha
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Postby ACGT-Samael » Mon May 28, 2018 11:22 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I always thought that the bubbling flesh is supposed to show that the lance replica was glowing hot when entering and caused the flesh to boil


I mean I guess it's technically possible the Lance was superheated to a temperature that would render flesh (based on the bubbling it's less boiling and more the swelling you see making, for example, pork rinds), but either way no subsequent shot of her head has that texture. I also can't think of why the Lance would have gotten so hot, but I suppose being a replica it may not be as efficient as the original and thus encountered more resistance breaking through the AT-Field.

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Postby Blockio » Wed May 30, 2018 4:39 pm

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote: but either way no subsequent shot of her head has that texture. I also can't think of why the Lance would have gotten so hot, but I suppose being a replica it may not be as efficient as the original and thus encountered more resistance breaking through the AT-Field.

Given just how inconsistent they were with anything in that scene, its the best explanation I have
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Postby Neepa » Wed May 30, 2018 4:45 pm

Maybe that isn't even the brain bubbling out of there?
Wait...it could be the brain. But that looks more like LCL of a rather slimy texture.

It could be the Lance negated the A.T.-Field of Unit02 as it went through her resulting in the tissue breaking down into a gooey mass of LCL.

The Lance(s) after all can pierce A.T.-Fields or negate them to break through.

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 30, 2018 5:23 pm

I looked in my copy of Groundwork of Evangelion the Movie 1, and the stuff coming out of her head does get labeled 黄色...泡 (... = couple of kanji I can't figure out right now), which is "yellow froth/bubbles". I guess that sort of goes along with Blockio's suggestion. Though having the whole brain turn into a liquified yellow froth is still really weird and visually confusing (honestly looks like fatty tissue in some of the shots), and I'm not sure exactly what's gained by doing this instead of just depicting the brains the usual way. No attempt is made to actually suggest that the Spear is hot, which would be really easy -- give it a metallic glow, show it distorting the light around it, etc.

No insight to be found in the storyboards. The decision to have stuff emptying out of Eva-02's head clearly came later on.

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 30, 2018 7:24 pm

Given that brains are 60% fat, and fat dissolves into an oil as it melts, a melting brain should be clear fluid with chunks, which wouldn't look like foam. The only other guess I have is it's the cerebrospinal fluid, but that should look like water. We'd gonna have to argue hard core artistic licence no matter what.

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Postby felineki » Thu May 31, 2018 2:04 am

After looking at the above Yamashita notes on Eva-01's "peg teeth" and finding them somewhat interesting, I figured I've give an attempt at translating (I know Reichu said she was going to, but it never hurts to have multiple people looking at something when it comes to translating stuff.) This is all the stuff on the left side of the image:

There's something I don't get in the storyboards...

In Ep #2 Cut 257, on the scene of Eva opening her mouth there's this note saying "For some reason, inside are biological teeth."
*Is this purely for dramatic effect, in the sense that teeth-like parts are showing?
*Or is this a form that the Eva, in her berserk state, has spontaneously acquired?
If it's the latter case, then I don't quite see the need for the "for some reason" line, but I don't know for sure, so I'm going to go with the former for the time being.

In this case, I'll say they're not actually teeth, but joints to hold the upper and lower jaws together.

If it ends up being the latter case, then just forget all this.

So it seems like from that early on they weren't exactly sure what they wanted to do with the teeth, whether they were supposed to be part of the Eva's body, or part of the armor. So they went with the latter at first, then eventually introduced the former in Ep #19.

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Re: Eva Anatomy & Physiology: 2018 Edition

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Postby Reichu » Thu May 31, 2018 2:57 am

Thanks for doing that, felineki! :thumbsup: Do you happen to have Yamashita's handwriting typed out, by chance? Might as well add it to my files if you do.

This point of seeming confusion reminds me of the fact that the Eva-01 settei shows her with multiple rows of conical teeth inside the jaw armor. This is marked 決定稿 (final version) -- omitted from this particular scan -- oddly enough... The finalized settei is by Isamu Imakake and not Yamashita, incidentally.

Image

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Thu May 31, 2018 2:21 pm

I'm not surprised given everything else wev seen and what I've heard about how the show was written that the metal plates resembling teeth are essentially the result of confusion over an idea that wasn't fully fleshed out yet. Shots like the one in 26' must then be an attempt to weld the two ideas together and try to make something consistent of what they'd done.

The multiple rows of conical the are really weird to me because I don't know of any organism, extant or otherwise, with a dentition like that. It also kinda takes away from the "Omg they're human!" aspects of the design.

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Re: Eva Anatomy & Physiology: 2018 Edition

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Postby felineki » Thu May 31, 2018 10:22 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Do you happen to have Yamashita's handwriting typed out, by chance? Might as well add it to my files if you do.

I didn't type the whole thing out while I was translating it last night, just looked up the kanji I couldn't immediately recognize. But I went ahead and typed up a transcript now:
コンテでわからない所があるのさ

#2S257からはじまるエバの開口に
あたっての上書きで「中には何故か生物的
な歯~」の一文があるが。
・これは単に演出的なおもしろさで
歯のようなパーツが見えているのか。
・それとも暴走状態のエバが
その場で急速に獲得した
形態なのか
後者なら「何故か~」の一節は必要
ないんだけど、わからないので
とりあえず前者で行くことに
します

このバアイ歯でなく
上下顎固定ジョイント
とゆーことにします

後者なら
忘れて下さい

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Re: Eva Anatomy & Physiology: 2018 Edition

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:30 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:By "garbled mess", I assume you're referring to the red things I've been calling "peg-teeth" for lack of anything better? ("Peg" not because they look like pegs, but because they're used to hold the jaws shut.) They received a bit of an overhaul for Jo, most notably with the addition of the flexible "roots" and a change away from the original locking mechanism. I'm not sure how the latter is supposed to work in this version, but in the original...

Image

See the holes on the front "incisors" here? On the right, the top "tooth" nests into the bottom one, meaning the holes overlap. I'm pretty sure the broken rod you see flying out of Sho's mouth is originally fixed inside the overlapping holes, bolting the jaws shut. Would be worthwhile to translate Yamashita's notes sometime. Might play a bit with that tonight...

Entirely possible I missed something obvious you were trying to point out to me, in which case give me a gentle smack.

(Incidentally, kind of dumb how they bothered to give the peg-teeth a fancy overhaul, only to have them only last the one sequence. Trivia for anyone who doesn't have the Ha Groundworks: They were originally supposed to appear in the 9th Angel encounter, but any genga that already had them got corrected to substitute in those insufferable ACTUALLY RED ACTUAL TEETH. Yes, I know she's not going to be eating anybody this time and you don't need the lovely contrast of red against white, but... red fucking enamel. Unbelievable! Why does that edgelord Eva-13 get to have white teeth while our lady Eva-01 gets screwed over like this?)

Yeah, I was talking about the replacements for the peg teeth in the 1.0 gif. It just seems like a pointless change to a mechanism that doesn't read as well and only appears in a single scene.

ACGT-Samael wrote:The multiple rows of conical the are really weird to me because I don't know of any organism, extant or otherwise, with a dentition like that. It also kinda takes away from the "Omg they're human!" aspects of the design.

Multiple rows of teeth are a pretty common design element for "eldritch horror" types of creatures. And while it only has a single row of them, we do have this:
SPOILER: Show
Image
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

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Re: Eva Anatomy & Physiology: 2018 Edition

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:53 pm

For Eldritch horrors yes. Evas though are meant to be more of a humanoid abomination / uncanny Valley deal, with a lot of features meant for Hammer in that point. It's why they have fingernails, omnivorous teeth and binocular vision despite the lack of actual biological imperatives for any of them.


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