Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Stillborn » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:13 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkobitch wrote:As much as I really hope 1.0+3.0 pulls an End of Evangelion and just shits all over everything, partially to prove a point but also in part because Anno loves being a dick, I know it won't happen. The New Theatrical films are clearly trying to be more mainstream and accessible, which became painfully apparent in the terrible picnic scene at the ocean purification plant in Break. I really, REALLY want something super fucked up to happen, but I know it probably won't. It just wouldn't fit the tone. Then again, I suppose Prelude had an identical tone to the original, Break was only lighthearted near the beginning, and Q was all around darker than it's two predecessors, so 1.0+3.0 MIGHT be crazy and horrific? I truly hope it is.


Yes. Let's have Shinji, Rei and Asuka sewn together in human centipede, in obvious agony and no one around to either help them or put them out of misery, with Anno narrating on the background how as long as you're alive any place can be heaven.

I guess that would satify your sublime tastes.
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:57 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkobitch wrote:As much as I really hope 1.0+3.0 pulls an End of Evangelion and just shits all over everything, partially to prove a point but also in part because Anno loves being a dick, I know it won't happen. The New Theatrical films are clearly trying to be more mainstream and accessible, which became painfully apparent in the terrible picnic scene at the ocean purification plant in Break. I really, REALLY want something super fucked up to happen, but I know it probably won't. It just wouldn't fit the tone. Then again, I suppose Prelude had an identical tone to the original, Break was only lighthearted near the beginning, and Q was all around darker than it's two predecessors, so 1.0+3.0 MIGHT be crazy and horrific? I truly hope it is.


I don't know how the Rebuild is more mainstream than NGE, especially if you think so because of the picnic scene, when you find lighthearted stuff like that in NGE too (neither do I see what's bad about it, you need juvenile happiness if you want to show how the downward spiral later is bad).
And I don't think Anno particularly cares about alineating his audience (ehem, 3.0).

@Reichu:
The crotch scene in 2.0 I didn't have a problem with. I think the intention was communicating that Asuka is feeling sexual urges.
However I understand why people don't like it, there could probably have been a more elegant way of communicating the idea and that was less confusing as to if we are watching "fanservice" or not.
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby TheChosenJuan » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:46 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I don't know how the Rebuild is more mainstream than NGE, especially if you think so because of the picnic scene, when you find lighthearted stuff like that in NGE too (neither do I see what's bad about it, you need juvenile happiness if you want to show how the downward spiral later is bad).
And I don't think Anno particularly cares about alineating his audience (ehem, 3.0).

@Reichu:
The crotch scene in 2.0 I didn't have a problem with. I think the intention was communicating that Asuka is feeling sexual urges.
However I understand why people don't like it, there could probably have been a more elegant way of communicating the idea and that was less confusing as to if we are watching "fanservice" or not.


I heard now numerous times, that Anno is actually more likely to get rid of his fanbase, more or less. Yet there was the announcement of more fanservice for the last movie, so it all comes out to actually seeing it upon release.

But it has become more mainstream than before. This is just because the production and overall epectations are so alike in that genre nowadays. Well, the third installment was a bit different from the mainstream, but you can see that in the mostly american reviews.

And if you mean the crotch shot, where she was writhing in her bed was more natural I guess. Everyone moves unless they are restraint from doing so in their sleep. But then the "urges" probably show up when she went to Shinji's bed instead of like Mitsuko's. Or it was just another psycho-trope, I dunno...
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:08 pm

View Original PostTheChosenJuan wrote:I heard now numerous times, that Anno is actually more likely to get rid of his fanbase, more or less.

Don't be too quick to believe everything you hear, though.
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:29 pm

I don't think Anno wants to get rid of his fanbase. He just wants to challenge it. Make them think and reconsider things.
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Ray » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:42 pm

It's a paradox. Anno made a movie telling his Otaku audience to get out of their bubbles and have normal lives. Only for them to double down on their Otaku Lifestyles thanks to the very show that was meant to be the exact opposite.
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby kuribo-04 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:27 am

Anno says he isn't adressing otaku anymore though and that Rebuild is about something more important.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:11 am

View Original PostTheChosenJuan wrote:But it has become more mainstream than before. This is just because the production and overall epectations are so alike in that genre nowadays. Well, the third installment was a bit different from the mainstream, but you can see that in the mostly american reviews.

Evangelion has always been mainstream in Japan, and Japan is really the only market that Anno was ever concerned with in his entire life. Thus, any meaningful discussions of artist/audience interactions can only be done realizing how mainstream Evangelion has always been to its Japanese audience. Evangelion's mainstream status has not changed since the 90's when it first came out in Japan. That being said, there's some interesting discussion to be had about how Anno approaches Eva fans after over a decade worth of realizing exactly how mainstream Evangelion is.

And Anno isn't getting rid of his fanbase. That's impossible. He can only suggest that his fanbase move on to other things, and the agency of that action lies entirely with the fanbase itself. Anno directed Cutie Honey, so he has no aversions to fan service. Promising fan service is a carry over from NGE, and, if you pay attention, NGE doesn't always deliver on its promise of fan service either. (And that's only if you define fan service in a strictly sexual manner. Epically animated Eva fights are also fan service, and there is no logical argument otherwise.)

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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:48 am

Anno has struggled with otakudom since NGE's conclusion himself, and seems to have settled for a gray approach: that it's opposite to enjoy the things he likes while still living a rich and non-secluded life. Lots of evidence for this in Insufficient Direction, for example. Hopefully he's also come to terms with the fact that people are going to be attached to his work the same way he's attached to Kamen Rider, Ultraman, etc., etc. Hence, NTE changing up its approach a bit and going after more specific targets.

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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby SEELE-01 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:27 pm

Wait a minute...
Are you all saying that the hospital scene is less messed up than the literal evisceration of Eva 02 at the hands (er, mouths) of the MP Evas?

The hospital scene is important character-wise...
The final moments of Eva 02 serve, in my opinion, no purpose other than shock value... If any scene has to be topped is that one...
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Postby Ray » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:08 pm

(And that's only if you define fan service in a strictly sexual manner.


We did get Ass and tit shots of Asuka and Mari in 3.33, and the big gay piano scene. So there's that. He didn't 'lie' but given everything else in the movie, maybe it would have been better if they had no boobs or ass at all. I've said it before. It totally undercuts everything when you cut right from Kaworu's death to Maris's bouncing gag boobs. But that's an argument for another thread.
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Postby kuribo-04 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:28 pm

Rationally, I understand what you mean. But somehow I never cared about the shot with her breasts. Never took me out of the moment.
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Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:19 am

Dude, I always forget Mari's boobs flop that way. It was always a Graphic Match shot first, in my mind, and the animation was processed second. Also, whenever I think of Eva Q, the only thing that comes to mind is Kaworu and pianos.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:17 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:My feeling (both gut and analytical) is that the scene is there because Anno felt it should be there -- it allowed him to say something important to him that couldn't be said any other way -- and for such an intensely personal artistic work that is the only reason needed.

Yeah, that's great and all, but if Anno has the freedom to decide what he wants in the story, I have the freedom to criticize his writing if I disagree with his decisions. "It's good because Anno wanted it there" isn't really an argument.
but if you actually do care about what the artist was trying to say and not merely about what you think he should have said, then it doesn't hurt to relax your preconceptions a bit and
I am not obligated to scrap my own opinion for Anno's. Anno can write whatever he wants, I can disagree with whatever I want.
probe into the matter analytically.

That's exactly what I did:
Every time I've watched EOE, I've found Shinji masturbating to just kill the thematic tension of the scene.


that being the point of scene doesn't really fit very well with the rest of the characterization offered in the story. I don't remember perversion ever being a part of Shinji's characterization(I don't really consider him almost kissing Asuka perverted). Perhaps if that had been developed earlier that would make sense, but to force it in near the end ends up making the scene tangential.

The "stage setting" seems more important and relevant to the story to me than "the point" which isn't a great set up for a scene.


This has nothing to do with me "rushing" to judgement. If you have reasons for disagreeing with what I said, that's one thing. But ATM, you've just given me an appeal to authority.
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:35 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:The hospital room scene is important, both within terms of story beats and within terms of thematics and tone. Not only are there explicit call-backs to the scene (or the motivations behind said scene) later on in the film when Asuka says that she knows about Shinji's "jerk-off fantasies" about her, but it also ties in themes from the NGE TV series that reference the purpose of Shinji's hands in context to certain characters he interacts with along the series. (Rei explicitly calls attention to this later on in EoE as well by asking "Then what are your hands for?") Shinji's right hand is covered in blood when he assists Rei in Episode 1, the film cuts to his right hand preparing for action when he's piloting Eva Unit 01, and in EoE his right hand is covered in semen due to his depressed lust and desperation for Asuka. The hospital room scene in EoE also thematically ties Shinji in with Gendo. They both have the seeds of life in their respective right hands, albeit, they have seeds for very different life in their right hands. (Shinji has semen, Gendo has Adam.) Each of these seeds generally become effective when inserted inside a female, as demonstrated with Gendo saving Adam in Rei's body.

I've taken Shinji's hand motions to represent the need to hold on to someone embodying his dependency on others. This meaning you've derived due to the addition of Shinji masturbating seems

A. Less emotionally compelling
B. Less thematically powerful
C. Tangential to what Evagellion focuses it's story on

Consequently, Shinji masturbating serves to detract from the story making aspects of it

A. Less powerful emotionally
B. Less thematically powerful
C. Less focused

"Shinji's a pervert!" may make Shinji more complex, but it doesn't add anything meaningful to the story and serves to distract from a vastly more powerful moment with Shinji desperately shaking Asuka.
Another aspect in which this scene works as a story beat in Shinji's story is because it's the final straw in effectively isolating him emotionally from every female character in the show.

Asuka running away, Shinji's inability to save Asuka from the MP3's, Asuka being non-respondent to Shinji, and Shinji choking Asuka all demonstrate Shinji's emotional isolation in a way which is much more compelling than Shinji's masturbation does. Shinji's masturbation isn't important here. It's a distraction.
That isn't to say that there aren't reasons for not liking the hospital room scene.

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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:00 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Yes. Let's have Shinji, Rei and Asuka sewn together in human centipede, in obvious agony and no one around to either help them or put them out of misery, with Anno narrating on the background how as long as you're alive any place can be heaven.

I guess that would satify your sublime tastes.


That sounds so pathetically edgy and bad that I think it should happen.
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Postby Ray » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Not to defend Born. But given the position Shinji is in, (assuming Anno DOES make it worse) and then tries to say 'you can come back from this' totally ignoring the quality of said life after the horror. It would probably come off as more emotionally inauthentic than anything else.
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Postby one-eyed » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:31 am

I do not believe much in a fourth movie, but I find it perfectly possible and very likely Anno surpasses that mindfuck and, thank God, I have no idea what it will be. I would never have found it possible for Shinji to be a monstrous sexual predator and Asuka be gangraped by MPEs. What happens in Anno's mind is something that only God knows and the Devil is able to imagine. Anno is one of the reasons I never want to be part of a mental community. I cannot even imagine the obscenities that live in his mind and I do not care to find out.


Stillborn wrote: Yes. Let's have Shinji, Rei and Asuka sewn together in human centipede, in obvious agony and no one around to either help them or put them out of misery, with Anno narrating on the background how as long as you're alive any place can be heaven.

Subtract Shinji, add Mari and maybe Sakura and Yui and put Gendo as their head and I could believe that Anno would do that.

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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Justacrazyguy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:31 am

There won't be a hospital scene but there could very well be an equivalent scene. One that makes people go "dude, do you remember 4.0+1.0 evangelion ultimate redux? That shit was screwed up!" and the friend replies"ha you actually like the rebuilds? what a pleb

Going by Annos other works, I'm actually expecting something along the lines of the Nadia ending: tame when compared to other shows, but incredibly shocking and earth shattering in the context of the rebuilds. What that could be, I have no clue.
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Postby Settie » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:35 pm

Well i can think of one way to one up it, an attempted suicide scene. Something like a minute long (or longer) scene with no music and just muffled sound effects as Shinji goes through the motions of his attempt.

That would convey a certain state of mind and be shocking enough for an audience that is familiar with such a topic while still fitting within the narrative and not be shocking just for the sake of it.


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