Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Ray » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:04 pm

Basically what it says on the tin.

For all the messed up stuff in 2.22 and especially 3.33. Nothing in the Rebuilds has come close to matching the sheer levels of messed up that was Shinji jacking it off over Asuka. It's easily one of the most divisive moments in anime history. Making Shinji either the most hated, or most relatable protag in anime history depending on the person.

But then theres the case of the Rebuilds. Watching them again, nothing has the 'lasting impact' that the hospital room scene left with me. Like Kaworu dying was sad, but it was also kind've Mortal Kombat level of Absurd, with his head exploding like a Baloon filled with Red Paint. I didn't find that shocking or disgusting. Shinji finding out the truth made me feel sad for him but it didn't fill me with the same feeling of revulsion that the scene in EOE did. It was totally played for realism, and the cut to the hand full of baby batter still makes me gasp several years later. How do you escalate that? Theres no way you can make a scene in Final as messed up as a boy literally messing himself over his love interest.

I'm worried that if Anno did try to top this in Final (not saying he will, just putting it out there) he'd have Shinji do something thats even worse than this scene. Because in 3.33 things are already pretty much at their breaking point, and Shinji literally masturbating wouldn't really fit into the plot except as exploitation at this point. It wouldn't fit into the context of whats come before in the rebuilds.

Furthermore. If Anno tries to escalate and have Shinji do something more disgusting (use your imagination). It would likely go from being divisive to making him genuinely irredeemable/permanently lose sympathy in the eyes of the audience.
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:13 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:I'm worried that if Anno did try to top this in Final (not saying he will, just putting it out there) he'd have Shinji do something thats even worse than this scene. Because in 3.33 things are already pretty much at their breaking point, and Shinji literally masturbating wouldn't really fit into the plot except as exploitation at this point. It wouldn't fit into the context of whats come before in the rebuilds.

Furthermore. If Anno tries to escalate and have Shinji do something more disgusting (use your imagination). It would likely go from being divisive to making him genuinely irredeemable/permanently lose sympathy in the eyes of the audience.

I'm not sure why you're even asking, since it seems you've already answered your own question
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Ray » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:48 pm

Would that be Anno's intent though?

One of the scenes in the series that inspired Eva (Devilman) has a scene in it where something so messed up happanes where you know it can't possibly end in a happy ending so all the audience can do after that point is just ride the wave and see how messed up it can get before the end. It fulfilled a similar scene as Shinji mastrubating over Asuka in End Of Eva, and the scene where Shinji saw Unit 02's Corpse. Or Griffith being tortured and disfigured in Berserk.

There hasn't really been a scene like that in the Rebuilds. The closest we've gotten is Shinji and Kaworus conversation over the destroyed landscape where he finds out he's responsible for all the destruction N3I caused. But even that hasn't gotten to the point where the audience just gives up and rides the wave towards it's inevitable conclusion.
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:17 pm

He doesn't do things for shock value alone.
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:35 pm

Probably not.

Partly because of age. Having your main character masturbate to a comatose colleague is a go-for-broke young(er) artist stamp of being edgy. I feel with 20+ years of experience Anno would probably not do something so direct.

Partly circumstance. End of Evangelion wasn't originally planned when they made the series and when they got a chance to do the film he was still in the midsts of nerds angry at him over the end of the series- sending him death threats, etc - and opening the film with Shinji doing what the fans have done (masturbating profusely to the female pilots... something merchandize shows fans are still doing to this day) is a pretty succinct way of saying THIS IS NOT THE TV SERIES ANYMORE. Whatever Final ends up being has always been part of the plan. Even when they goofily announced Films 3 & 4 as two 45 minute movies that play back to back (those aren't feature length films, those are longish shorts) there was always going to be Act 4. A fourth film that wraps up Shinji's story in a new fashion.

Anno has refrained from going for pure shock for a while now. He's even pulled back at times - for example: A. how in 2.0 when the Angel took over Unit 03 at one point they planned on having the flesh of Asuka's face getting viciously ripped off off her body B. in the final scenes of 2.0 the giant vision of Rei that formed when she was pulled from the Angel was basically supposed to grind on Eva 01 until she climaxed C. in Shin Godzilla he vomited acidic red blood at certain points - so I don't think Anno is going to go for shock value for shocks sake.

Ultimately though it depends on what type of emotion Anno wants the movie to provide.

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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:26 am

^ I think we see Anno begin to part ways with his shocking forms of story-telling in Shiki-Jitsu. As powerful as that movie is, it doesn't rely too much on overt sexual expressions in order to force a reaction from his audience.

I do like the fact that it's still in him somewhere, though. These rewrites of more shocking material prove that Anno still has these things in his back pocket just in case he needs them. But he has always been a smart filmmaker and storyteller first, shock artist second. Shinji masturbating to Asuka's comatose body served a narrative purpose in EoE, while Rei climaxing to Unit 01 in Eva Jo doesn't serve any purpose in in that story.

I'd be shocked if Shinji even voluntarily changes clothes in the first half of Shin Eva. This is a kid who hasn't spoken a word at all since Kaowru died. Asuka even needed to help him to his feet, and he had to be lead by the hand in order to walk. There's no way that Shinji is just gonna unzip his pants and wank all over somebody in Shin Eva. At least, not as an opening scene. Shinji's experiences a different kind of grief in Eva Q than he did in EoE.

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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:16 am

*puts on her nasally voice*

ACTUALLY, Asuka was far more likely to have been catatonic and/or "sedated for her own good" than she was "comatose". (Do people only say "comatose" because of stuff like Kill Bill, or just what the hell is actually going on?)

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:while Rei climaxing to Unit 01 in Eva Jo doesn't serve any purpose in in that story.

Before I read more closely, I thought this was going to be a reference to the O-face that Rei actually really has when she's being absorbed into Eva-01 at the end of Ha.

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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby zlink64 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:16 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:*puts on her nasally voice*

ACTUALLY, Asuka was far more likely to have been catatonic and/or "sedated for her own good" than she was "comatose". (Do people only say "comatose" because of stuff like Kill Bill, or just what the hell is actually going on?)



I say comatose out of bad habit sometimes even though I know it's wrong but usually only in real life and not on the internet. :shrug:

@Ray
I think in rebuild Kaworu's death was suppose to replace the masturbation scene because in rebuild the moment of selfishness that leads Shinji to indirectly kill Kaworu reminds me of the selfishness present in the hospital scene and that was not really present in the original Kaworu death.

As for Kaworu death not being as shocking as the hospital scene to people in general, I chalk that up to 3.0 being more "fantastical" than the original so it comes off as less shocking since it feels less real and to bias. By bias I mean people find inappropriate sex acts more shocking than death even when it probably shouldn't be the case.

Obviously I could be wrong but that is the impression 3.0 has given me so far.
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:41 am

Arguably Anno already "topped" the hospital scene back in Ha. Asuka was once again presented as a sexual object, but this time to the audience -- and repeatedly against their will. No, Anno, I do not want to see an up-crotch shot of Asuka that you specifically asked your team to make as "pervy" as possible, thank you. No, I do not want to see Asuka in an absolutely ridiculous plugsuit that even she knows is ridiculous, nor do I want to see her life ruined while she is wearing such a skimpy and humiliating thing. What point are you trying to make here, Anno, and why are demeaning your own film so aggressively? Sigh.

After all of that, anything in the same vein would be completely redundant.

I don't think you need to worry about Shinji doing anything sexually repulsive, Ray, since the new films are so thoroughly neutered compared to the originals, and aside from the bizarre fan service fixation on (mostly) Asuka and Mari they are fairly sexless. I mean, consider that NGE is Psychoanalysis: The Anime and is all about Shinji's journey from a pair of boobs that represent the maternal Eden to a pair of boobs that do not, undertaken by repeatedly entering his mom via a composite penis-uterus. This shit barely exists in NME at all beyond the super-basic "I AM OEDIPUS" stuff.

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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:15 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote: for example: A. how in 2.0 when the Angel took over Unit 03 at one point they planned on having the flesh of Asuka's face getting viciously ripped off off her body B. in the final scenes of 2.0 the giant vision of Rei that formed when she was pulled from the Angel was basically supposed to grind on Eva 01 until she climaxed C. in Shin Godzilla he vomited acidic red blood at certain points - so I don't think Anno is going to go for shock value for shocks sake.


A. could work if it was meant to be a metaphor for the psychological damage Asuka was enduring at the time, but B. does just sound stupidly gratuitous.

C. is bloody (ayy) awesome, and I doubt it was cut for any reason other than budget and time, given that we see Godzilla vomiting blood out of his gills in the final film.

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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:48 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:B. in the final scenes of 2.0 the giant vision of Rei that formed when she was pulled from the Angel was basically supposed to grind on Eva 01 until she climaxed

That storyboard was depicting a previous plot scenario, not the finale shown in the finished film. The giant Rei in question was equivalent to the one that grows out of Armisael in episode 23, back when they when toying with the idea of Rei self-destructing to stop the 10th Angel instead of being "rescued". Also, I'm not sure if I missed something important, but where are you getting "until she climaxed" from?

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:04 pm

I hope not. Every time I've watched EOE, I've found Shinji masturbating to just kill the thematic tension of the scene. Here we have a powerful scene where Shinji is frantically shaking Asuka, begging for her to help him, showing us how desperately dependent he is, and then out of nowehere we get this masturbation scene which takes you from being emotionally gripped to thinking "really bruh". Everytime I see it, my natural response is to laugh.

Even if it was intended to add depth here, it's just out of place. Often, in moments of dramtic importance, less is more. If the scene just cuts with Asuka rolling over and Shinji's head in his arms or face down on Asuka's bed, that right there is incredibly poweful. But by cluttering the scene with a moment that doesn't really fit with the rest of it, you end up dragging out and weakening the emotion the scene initially evoked leaving you with a less powerful scene.

I can understand the potential intentions here, but Shinji masturbating serves to detract from the story rather than add to it as it takes focus away from the rest of the scene.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:27 pm

Consider, perhaps, that Shinji jerking off and then finding himself at an all-new low actually was the entire point of that scene, and the stuff you've been giving more weight to is nothing more than stage-setting that was never supposed to go the way you think it should have.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:03 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Consider, perhaps, that Shinji jerking off and then finding himself at an all-new low actually was the entire point of that scene, and the stuff you've been giving more weight to is nothing more than stage-setting that was never supposed to go the way you think it should have.

Well in my opinion, that being the point of scene doesn't really fit very well with the rest of the characterization offered in the story. I don't remember perversion ever being a part of Shinji's characterization(I don't really consider him almost kissing Asuka perverted). Perhaps if that had been developed earlier that would make sense, but to force it in near the end ends up making the scene tangential.

The "stage setting" seems more important and relevant to the story to me than "the point" which isn't a great set up for a scene.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:43 am

My feeling (both gut and analytical) is that the scene is there because Anno felt it should be there -- it allowed him to say something important to him that couldn't be said any other way -- and for such an intensely personal artistic work that is the only reason needed. Shinji is the primary vehicle by which Anno communicates his feelings and mindset, and the theatrical format allowed him to express some things that would have been a bit too much for television. If it makes you uncomfortable (you say you "laugh"; laughter is commonly prompted by discomfort and anxiety) and it clashes with what you think should have been, then there's really nothing that can be done, but if you actually do care about what the artist was trying to say and not merely about what you think he should have said, then it doesn't hurt to relax your preconceptions a bit and probe into the matter analytically. What you find may surprise you. But no rush or anything -- the human brain keeps developing until one's in their mid-twenties or so, and accumulated experiences and knowledge can make old things look very different.

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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:11 am

The hospital room scene is important, both within terms of story beats and within terms of thematics and tone. Not only are there explicit call-backs to the scene (or the motivations behind said scene) later on in the film when Asuka says that she knows about Shinji's "jerk-off fantasies" about her, but it also ties in themes from the NGE TV series that reference the purpose of Shinji's hands in context to certain characters he interacts with along the series. (Rei explicitly calls attention to this later on in EoE as well by asking "Then what are your hands for?") Shinji's right hand is covered in blood when he assists Rei in Episode 1, the film cuts to his right hand preparing for action when he's piloting Eva Unit 01, and in EoE his right hand is covered in semen due to his depressed lust and desperation for Asuka. The hospital room scene in EoE also thematically ties Shinji in with Gendo. They both have the seeds of life in their respective right hands, albeit, they have seeds for very different life in their right hands. (Shinji has semen, Gendo has Adam.) Each of these seeds generally become effective when inserted inside a female, as demonstrated with Gendo saving Adam in Rei's body.

Another aspect in which this scene works as a story beat in Shinji's story is because it's the final straw in effectively isolating him emotionally from every female character in the show. Shinji became emotionally distant from Misato upon Kaji's death, he became emotionally distant from Rei since he discovered that she was part of a series of clones, he was always emotionally distant from his mother because he could never really get close to her, and finally, in the hospital room scene, Shinji performs an act that emotionally separates him from Asuka, while also having him hit the lowest emotional point in his life. Shinji hadn't been emotionally separated from Asuka in a proper sense in the TV series, so the hospital room scene picks up the slack by adding that necessary detail in the narrative with the hospital room scene. (For the sake of completing the separation theme, we can include emotionally being separated from Kaworu due to his death, even though Kaowru isn't female.)

That isn't to say that there aren't reasons for not liking the hospital room scene. It's gross. (I mean, ew.) It's also a bit violating. (I mean, yikes!) But that doesn’t mean that it isn't important to the character development of Shinji throughout the series, or that it fits perfectly in the emotional landscape and thematic of the show. (Unless, of course, you're under the impression that Shinji probably has "too much" character development in this series by taking precious screen time away from someone else in the franchise.)
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:05 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:I can understand the potential intentions here, but Shinji masturbating serves to detract from the story rather than add to it as it takes focus away from the rest of the scene.

The masturbation bit is what the scene is about though.
The drama before is setup, to remind you how down Shinji is feeling, to make it at least a little easier to stomach.
I think this would be out of character for Shinji, if he hadn't killed a person the day before and wasn't going totally bonkers, searching for anything to distract him, at the expense of any respect to another person.
Without such a horrible scene, the fact that Shinji still wants to come back at the end would be less powerful imo.
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby imprimatur13 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:45 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:(For the sake of completing the separation theme, we can include emotionally being separated from Kaworu due to his death, even though Kaowru isn't female.)

Actually... From Shinji's perspective, and indeed even canonically speaking, Kaworu is female in every way except biologically. This simply supports your point further.

Kaworu is Adam, who is the Mother of the Angels. This means that Kaworu has a built-in maternal association. Also, the way he speaks to Shinji is, at least from Shinji's perspective, very loving, and nurturing. Kaworu was the only person since Yui "died" to have given Shinji the affirmation of self-worth that he needed, and that unconditional love/acceptance. Whatever you may say Kaworu's motivations were, that's how it seemed to Shin-chan.

So, yes, as far as a feeling of isolation from female characters goes, there is no better example than Kaworu's betrayal.
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Re: Will Anno Try To Top The "Hospital Room Scene"? Can Anything Be As Messed Up?

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Postby TheChosenJuan » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:28 pm

well, Asuka could've been awake and Shinji just continues to beat it. That's a bit more messed up...
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Postby AdamMalkobitch » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:00 pm

As much as I really hope 1.0+3.0 pulls an End of Evangelion and just shits all over everything, partially to prove a point but also in part because Anno loves being a dick, I know it won't happen. The New Theatrical films are clearly trying to be more mainstream and accessible, which became painfully apparent in the terrible picnic scene at the ocean purification plant in Break. I really, REALLY want something super fucked up to happen, but I know it probably won't. It just wouldn't fit the tone. Then again, I suppose Prelude had an identical tone to the original, Break was only lighthearted near the beginning, and Q was all around darker than it's two predecessors, so 1.0+3.0 MIGHT be crazy and horrific? I truly hope it is.
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