Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby VUX » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:11 pm

Could it be possible that Units 1 and 13 could fight in Final, and if they do, who do you think would win?
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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:36 pm

Unit 13 is out of commission unless Kaworu starts it up again. (He’s still in there, waiting to act.)

Unit 01 is out of commission unless Rei II starts it up again and refuses to be a battery for AAA Wunder. (She’s still in there, mark my words.)

I’ll be shocked if Shinji pilots anything in Shin Eva. It’s not in him anymore. So, if the Units do fight, it’ll be because of Rei II and Kaworu. I can’t see them fighting each other, but I can totally see them teaming up and turning on Nerv.

Gendo loses.

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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:26 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Unit 13 is out of commission unless Kaworu starts it up again. (He’s still in there, waiting to act.)

He may well be somewhere in some sense, but I doubt he's in Unit 13.

Unit 01 is out of commission unless Rei II starts it up again and refuses to be a battery for AAA Wunder. (She’s still in there, mark my words.)

Agreed - and don't forget Yui.
I’ll be shocked if Shinji pilots anything in Shin Eva. It’s not in him any more.

I'm not sure that Final will go that way - but I find the idea convincing enough to have implemented it in my fic.

So, if the Units do fight, it’ll be because of Rei II and Kaworu. I can’t see them fighting each other, but I can totally see them teaming up and turning on Nerv.

I suspect that Unit 13 has been and gone, and that there will be something with Shinji and Unit 01 to defeat Gendō; but for now all our conjectures have equal status...
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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:31 pm

I figure the movie will set this up confrontation and then either go through with it in a final boss battle or more likely subvert it in some fashion. Eva 13 will of course feature into the narrative of FINAL somehow. I also stand by my long held belief that Shinji will get into an Eva one last time in FINAL and this time it will be for 100% completely selfless reasons. Primarily because Unit 01 coming to life and ripping her way out of the WUNDER mid-flight sounds like perfect spectacle material & also because it makes sense for Shinji's journey.

In 1.0 he only gets into the Eva so he can BE wanted & more importantly NEEDED by other people - Shinji's mindset regarding his position in life: You Are Alone. But, if you pilot the Eva the world informs him - You Are (Not) Alone.

In 2.0 he continues to pilot the Eva to keep being needed but the main reason he sticks around is to be rekindle a relationship with his his father - Shinji's mindset regarding his number one desired connection with his father: You Can Advance. The world informs him that no, You Can (Not) Advance. (Shinji does get into the Eva in what seems to be a selfless act to stop the Angel but it's revealed along the way he's subconsciously doing it to save and win the one person who may still need him, Rei.)

In 3.0, having left feeling worthless by Misato finally fulfilling his number one requested wish by not letting him pilot the Eva (seriously, dude has been vocally pleading to not pilot and when Misato finally says okay everyone labels her a bitch... unsurprising) he only gets back into the Eva to magically FIX everything. (Kaworu's thin faulty 'remove the spears' logic is supposed to be vague and not thought through, Shinji latches onto it because it's pure "If I do X everyone will love me" emotional logic & not practical thought). Shinji's mindset: You Can Redo. The world informs him: You Can (Not) Redo.

In Final, he'll either get into the Eva to save everyone in a truly selfless manner - not a death wish but an acceptance inside the Eva is where he NEEDS to be - or he'll get into the Eva because Rei II truly does need him and he wants to be there for her.

Shrug. I think Shinji getting into the Eva one last time is a a foregone act. Whether it ends up well for him or not is entirely dependent on the conclusion Anno wants to give the story.

I'm also thinking the English title of Final will lean positive after two negative titles.

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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby Joseki » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:33 am

We already had a Eva VS Eva fight in 3.0, for the final movie they will probably go bigger, like Wunder VS Gendo's equivalent of the Wunder or thousands of Mass Produced Evas VS one single Eva like the preview suggested.

I think we'll see Evangelion 13 again but used as a battery for some "end of the world device".
Misato will put Shinji inside Unit 01 when hope seems lost (probably after a debate with Ritsuko that may end with some shooting to pay homage to EoE). Shinji will then be faced with a 2 option choice, "Willie's option" and "Gendo's option", but for the first time in his life he'll chose without being guided or forced and thank to some Eva/Lance magic he'll brute force a third option, "Shinji's option", that will completely surprise the all knowing Gendo and Wille (except Asuka, Misato and Mari).
Moral of the story: no matter how much grim the situation, someone will be there to help you, just follow your heart.
Kaworu's words in 3.0 and Anno's quotes about his latest depression makes me think that the movie is going to be very autobiographical and a sort of thank you to all the people who supported him.
My two cents.
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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:30 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:but for the first time in his life he'll chose without being guided or forced and thank to some Eva/Lance magic he'll brute force a third option, "Shinji's option", that will completely surprise the all knowing Gendo and Wille (except Asuka, Misato and Mari)


I'm expecting that, too. Would be especially fitting when the Eva 3.0 world is seemingly in a worse state than post-EoE (from what the audience witnessed in either situation), but like Kaworu said, there's always hope*. So, having the will to continue living (huge theme of EoE, I'm certain it'll be true for Shin Eva, too) is the only logical conclusion for Shinji and company, despite potential battle casualties or some iteration of Instrumentality occurring.

*Whether or not Rebuild-films Kaworu is shady in his ultimate goals/actual feelings for Shinji, I believe he's at least sincere in those words.
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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:09 am

Until the film comes out, I won't be able to shake from my head the idea that 01 and 13 will decisively confront each other against a backdrop of epic warfare between the awakened FoIs and Gendo's MPEs. I'm imagining something kind of like the showdown between RahXephon and BerXephon, only not quite as lame. It'll end similarly, with Eva-01 absorbing Eva-13, hopefully in a much more grotesque and visceral way than that "I wrestle you awkwardly and then you turn into a ball" silliness in RahXephon. So we get the new movies' version of the composite god being, but it's different enough to make the mild repetition worth it, and things veer violently into unexpected Anno frontiers from this point on. Final Impact should be interesting...

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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:01 pm

I never saw 01 and 13 as opposite forces.
But it's true Gendo seemed to want 13 to awaken.
Then last year we got that visual of 13 attached to some machinery.
I guess a Rei clone could pilot the unit...but that doesn't work because two souls are needed.
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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:06 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:that doesn't work because two souls are needed.

Remember the original context for this...

KAWORU:
Yes, the Spears of Longinus and Cassius.
Wielding both requires two souls.
That's why we have the double entry system.


No reason, therefore, that Eva-13 couldn't be solo piloted normally. Extra sets of limbs aren't an insurmountable obstacle (e.g. Mari with Eva-05).

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I never saw 01 and 13 as opposite forces.

Opposition, complementation...Whatever you want to call it, something is definitely being set up.

- They're visual doubles. (Both purple with a single forehead horn and neon green trim.)
- Rei's soul is inside 01. I'll eat my hat if Kaworu's soul isn't similarly part of 13. Rei and Kaworu = also visual doubles.
- 01 = Alpha / Beginning. 13 = Omega / End.
- 01: In Wille's possession. 13: (Presumably still) in Nerv's possession. Wille and Nerv are opposing forces.
- Both have "awakened" via absorption of Angel. Both have initiated Impacts.
Etc.

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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:02 pm

No reason, therefore, that Eva-13 couldn't be solo piloted normally. Extra sets of limbs aren't an insurmountable obstacle (e.g. Mari with Eva-05).


Feel genuinely bad that I misremembered this lol.
I have watched the movies countless times.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
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Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:58 am

Evas 01 and 13 are too similarly designed for any fight scene to be comprehensive. Imagine the fight scene edited as quickly as the one between Evas 13 and 02', but the visual differences between the battling Evas are in blink-and-you'll-miss-it details. A fight scene where all of the Evas are purple is like a car chase scene where all of the cars are black; it becomes too difficult to quickly pick up on who is getting the advantage over the other. Your brain will constantly be like "Who's winning? The Purple one? That doesn't help me at all."

There is something being built up between the two in a narrative sense, I just don't think a fight scene is one of those things.

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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:14 am

They look different when "awakened".
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:15 am

I still don't think that they look different enough. Close-ups still wouldn't have the visual fidelity needed in order to differentiate the two during an explosive fight. That being said, visual contrast isn't nearly as important in a fight scene if the two purple ones teamed up together to fight an opposing force. Then it would just be "The two Purple ones fighting against the thing with Gendo in it" or whatever. And that's far more easy to visually follow.

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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:34 am

Anyone else seen RahXephon? That had a climactic confrontation between two opposing/complementary mecha that didn't really involve a "fight" per se. I can see whatever happens between 01 and 13 being kind of like that.

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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:09 am

It would be curious to have the RahXephon "influence" going the other way (eh - just kidding)! In any case, I can't see who would work as the Quon to Shinji's Ayato in that confrontation; well, just maybe Rei - but then, ur-Rei is in Unit-01, and ReiQ is currently with Wille (as represented by Asuka herding her charges through the desolation), and any other Rei clones have no link to Shinji.

Also, I find it hard to make a convincing scenario for Unit-01 and Unit-13 to fight. I mean: yes, Wille vs Nerv and all that - fine - but crucially, who pilots what? I can't imagine Shinji ending up piloting anything other than Unit-01, and the only Nerv pilot apart from ReiQ (currently in Wille's hands) is the (currently) late Kaworu - and Unit-13 needs two anyway. Two other Rei clones? But ReiQ already has her soul "in the wrong place", so that's not likely to work.

My feeling is that the dual-entry Eva-13 has served its dramatic purpose as a way of bringing Shinji and Kaworu together and we won't see it again.
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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:36 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I can't see who would work as the Quon to Shinji's Ayato in that confrontation (SNIP)

I can't use the RahXephon scene as a point of reference unless all elements are 1:1 to how they'll work out in 3+1? And who ever said that both Evas need to be traditionally "piloted" in order to have a thematically relevant confrontation? NTE is way more flexible than you're giving it credit. *gives pwhodges a brain massage*

and Unit-13 needs two anyway.

It doesn't; already addressed this.

My feeling is that the dual-entry Eva-13 has served its dramatic purpose as a way of bringing Shinji and Kaworu together and we won't see it again.

Eva-13 is not only still out there (we're explicitly shown it fall to the ground, intact), Gendo is given a comment about how awakening Eva-13 was "all according to plan". Kaworu's presence is also implied to linger within the Eva, and he teased at a future meeting. 13 is definitely coming back. Unless you think we're going to get another "haha, that Eva we implied was so important died offscreen!", but this late in the game we kinda need to just get to the point.

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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:51 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:I can't use the RahXephon scene as a point of reference unless all elements are 1:1 to how they'll work out in 3+1?

Sure - but without some correspondence the comparison seems of little interest.

Dual-piloting - I guess you got me there, though your point is not actually definitive.

For all we know Unit-13 has already fulfilled its entire purpose ("as planned", indeed). What was the purpose? That may yet be to be discovered - but there were things that happened before 4th impact was stopped, which may yet be crucial and what Gendō needed at that point. And of course Kaworu is likely to reappear in some manner, as I hinted myself.
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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:27 am

For all we know Eva 13’s only purpose was to get that giant challahs out of the ground. It would be nice if these Evas had more than one point to them, but so far it seems like it’s one Eva per action towards Instrumentality in NTE.

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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:33 am

I had in mind the chamber of Guf - isn't there an idea that Gendō and Fuyu might have entered it during the sequence?

Whatever that means...
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Re: Could there be a way that Units 1 and 13 fight one another in Final

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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:04 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:For all we know Unit-13 has already fulfilled its entire purpose

Isn't that kind of like claiming that Eva-01 has already fulfilled her entire purpose? Gendo made a similar "keikaku doori" comment when she had achieved Awakened status, after all. I think it's more likely that getting these Evas into a powered-up state is some kind of prerequisite for whatever it is he's planning, and we'll see whatever that is in the next film.

Reminder as well about the concept art teasing a continued role for Eva-13. That's not definitive either, of course, but it gives some idea of where khara's heads are at.

(Disclaimer: I actually think Eva-13 is stupid and I wish it had never been invented, but when the writing is on the wall as blatantly as it is here I'm going to stick to my guns. :p )


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