Ayanami and Autism
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Ayanami and Autism
It is said that autism is a developmental disorder characterized by troubles with social interaction and communication. Often there is also restricted and repetitive behavior. It is distinguished not by a single symptom, but by a characteristic triad of symptoms: impairments in social interaction; impairments in communication; restricted interests and repetitive behavior.
(Source: Wikipedia)
All episodes which features Rei, she's showing these kinds of traits. Would she IRL be diagnosed with such disorder or her standard behavior just happens to be a coincidence with the traits listed?
Did Anno made her to be some kind of self-representation or maybe he wanted a character to represent his fans/followers besides being a mere cannon fodder?
(Source: Wikipedia)
All episodes which features Rei, she's showing these kinds of traits. Would she IRL be diagnosed with such disorder or her standard behavior just happens to be a coincidence with the traits listed?
Did Anno made her to be some kind of self-representation or maybe he wanted a character to represent his fans/followers besides being a mere cannon fodder?
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
I'm gonna say no, although it sometimes seems that way.
At risk of oversimplifying a spectrum of disorders — autistic people have lots of trouble with social cues. Things like intonation, subtle changes in phrasing and body language — things that might provide hints about another person's mood or intent — are lost on them. They can't read between the lines. When they do engage socially, they come off as tone-deaf.
Here's what high-functioning autistic people are like: imagine someone who corners you in the break room and starts talking in great detail about some obscure topic that fascinates them, (trains, for example, or WWII battleships), but they can't tell how bored and uncomfortable you are despite the fact that you're rolling your eyes, looking down at your watch, fidgeting and staring into space. Most people would break it off at that point — "Oh, I can tell I'm boring you, sorry" — but an autistic person just can't read people that way.
Does this sound like Rei? The impression I got from NGE was that she rarely spoke, but when she did, she said something pithy or made a good observation. In one episode, she notices that Shinji had been staring at her after class, and connects the dots enough to realize that he had been working up the courage to ask her about his father. In another, she angrily asks Asuka whether she only pilots the Eva to win the praise of others (I'm not an Asuka hater, but this is pretty accurate). Later, when Asuka's sync ratio is falling, Rei realizes the problem and tries to give some advice, but Rei's body language shows she's hesitant to say anything — as if she's aware Asuka will vehemently reject it.
These scenes show a person who is aware of things around her but mostly keeps her thoughts to herself. It's fair to say she's socially awkward and has trouble expressing herself, but this by itself does not make one autistic.
Sorry for the rant, but I don't like it when people diagnose autism based on a list of symptoms they find on the internet. Autism is defined vaguely because it's hard to pinpoint, but if you've been exposed to it enough, you know it when you see it.
At risk of oversimplifying a spectrum of disorders — autistic people have lots of trouble with social cues. Things like intonation, subtle changes in phrasing and body language — things that might provide hints about another person's mood or intent — are lost on them. They can't read between the lines. When they do engage socially, they come off as tone-deaf.
Here's what high-functioning autistic people are like: imagine someone who corners you in the break room and starts talking in great detail about some obscure topic that fascinates them, (trains, for example, or WWII battleships), but they can't tell how bored and uncomfortable you are despite the fact that you're rolling your eyes, looking down at your watch, fidgeting and staring into space. Most people would break it off at that point — "Oh, I can tell I'm boring you, sorry" — but an autistic person just can't read people that way.
Does this sound like Rei? The impression I got from NGE was that she rarely spoke, but when she did, she said something pithy or made a good observation. In one episode, she notices that Shinji had been staring at her after class, and connects the dots enough to realize that he had been working up the courage to ask her about his father. In another, she angrily asks Asuka whether she only pilots the Eva to win the praise of others (I'm not an Asuka hater, but this is pretty accurate). Later, when Asuka's sync ratio is falling, Rei realizes the problem and tries to give some advice, but Rei's body language shows she's hesitant to say anything — as if she's aware Asuka will vehemently reject it.
These scenes show a person who is aware of things around her but mostly keeps her thoughts to herself. It's fair to say she's socially awkward and has trouble expressing herself, but this by itself does not make one autistic.
Sorry for the rant, but I don't like it when people diagnose autism based on a list of symptoms they find on the internet. Autism is defined vaguely because it's hard to pinpoint, but if you've been exposed to it enough, you know it when you see it.
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
Rei isn't autistic, she's just not used to human interaction after being shelter by Gendo for however many years. And honestly, with all the medical websites out there, you site Wikipedia for autistic symptoms?
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
I've heard people suggest Rei is Schizoid.
If she is though she's rather extreme. also tends to be misdiagnosed as autism.
Emotional coldness, detachment or reduced affect.
Limited capacity to express either positive or negative emotions towards others.
Consistent preference for solitary activities.
Very few, if any, close friends or personal relationship, and a lack of desire for such.
Indifference to either praise or criticism.
Little interest in having sexual experiences with another person (taking age into account).
Taking pleasure in few, if any, activities.
Indifference to social norms and conventions.
Preoccupation with fantasy and introspection.
If she is though she's rather extreme. also tends to be misdiagnosed as autism.
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
The medical school at Oxford University, no less, actually uses Wikipedia as a teaching resource in some areas (it's particularly good on anatomy, I believe) - though obviously not alone, and not without guidance and warnings. In medicine, as in anything else, one of the main features of university learning is understanding how to assess your sources; simple rejection is not the only response, and reliance on any single source is probably bad.
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
Shinji Ikari Expy wrote:Here's what high-functioning autistic people are like: imagine someone who corners you in the break room and starts talking in great detail about some obscure topic that fascinates them, (trains, for example, or WWII battleships), but they can't tell how bored and uncomfortable you are despite the fact that you're rolling your eyes, looking down at your watch, fidgeting and staring into space. Most people would break it off at that point — "Oh, I can tell I'm boring you, sorry" — but an autistic person just can't read people that way.
Aww, come on mate, did you really have to cite me as a specific example?
It’s worth noting that us high-functioning autists can learn to identify social cues and body language. But we still fuck up sometimes... especially when growing up adds a whole new layer to interactions with the people you’re attracted to.
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
She is not autistic, nor do I think she was meant to serve as a commentary of autism, but I can see why someone who is autistic would relate to her.
Anno's comments that reference autism tend to be saved for discussing the otaku, of which he identifies as one, and uses Shinji as his self-insert character throughout the franchise. Rei is only as involved in that equation inasmuch as she is involved in Shinji's life, but she really doesn't contribute much to that equation.
Anno's comments that reference autism tend to be saved for discussing the otaku, of which he identifies as one, and uses Shinji as his self-insert character throughout the franchise. Rei is only as involved in that equation inasmuch as she is involved in Shinji's life, but she really doesn't contribute much to that equation.
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
Shinji Ikari Expy wrote:I'm gonna say no, although it sometimes seems that way.
At risk of oversimplifying a spectrum of disorders — autistic people have lots of trouble with social cues. Things like intonation, subtle changes in phrasing and body language — things that might provide hints about another person's mood or intent — are lost on them. They can't read between the lines. When they do engage socially, they come off as tone-deaf.
Here's what high-functioning autistic people are like: imagine someone who corners you in the break room and starts talking in great detail about some obscure topic that fascinates them, (trains, for example, or WWII battleships), but they can't tell how bored and uncomfortable you are despite the fact that you're rolling your eyes, looking down at your watch, fidgeting and staring into space. Most people would break it off at that point — "Oh, I can tell I'm boring you, sorry" — but an autistic person just can't read people that way.
Does this sound like Rei? The impression I got from NGE was that she rarely spoke, but when she did, she said something pithy or made a good observation. In one episode, she notices that Shinji had been staring at her after class, and connects the dots enough to realize that he had been working up the courage to ask her about his father. In another, she angrily asks Asuka whether she only pilots the Eva to win the praise of others (I'm not an Asuka hater, but this is pretty accurate). Later, when Asuka's sync ratio is falling, Rei realizes the problem and tries to give some advice, but Rei's body language shows she's hesitant to say anything — as if she's aware Asuka will vehemently reject it.
These scenes show a person who is aware of things around her but mostly keeps her thoughts to herself. It's fair to say she's socially awkward and has trouble expressing herself, but this by itself does not make one autistic.
Sorry for the rant, but I don't like it when people diagnose autism based on a list of symptoms they find on the internet. Autism is defined vaguely because it's hard to pinpoint, but if you've been exposed to it enough, you know it when you see it.
Amen. As someone you wuld probably describe as an "high-functioning autist" (gotta remember that term, its great) and having talked to quite a number of people with various degrees of autism, I can 100% confirm this to be true. If Anno himself said that one of the students was an autist, Rei would actually be one of my last picks, Kensuke with his military obsession (which is very common among autists, especially in the aspergers spectrum) is to most likely candidate, but thats a topic for another day.
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
Yes, that we do. Very much.
I agree that it would be premature to diagnose Rei with autism. She was almost certainly not intended as such: however, her silence and awkwardness makes her a deeply sympathetic character to those of us who are on "the spectrum". That scene in ep. 9 with Rei poring over a textbook while disregarding Asuka's noxious attempts to interrupt her could have been modeled on any number of incidents in my life.
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
I would like to tear down a stereotype about autism to shreds, but however, I'm only talking about my experience: You can be autism and still be good at reading people. Like for exemple, me (Yes I know, I credit myself way too much in that's front which have lead to really deep and bad problems...).
It's even said it's because autistics people absorb others people emotions like a sponge that's absorb water, that's it's because w h y they're are so akward at interacting with each others. Of course there can be multiples others reasons. But autism or not, sometime and too often the reason why a other(s) is too akward to react to one another it's sometime indeed because you know them way too well.
But for Rei, I admit yeah, she litteraly a psychic. Like, after all, any others angels (Arael) or mighty being, cause she Lilith. And since Lilith is the creator of Lilim, it's only natural for her to be able to read people well. Yui too was really good to read people, to the point of manipulation, the others completely oblivious of it. In any-case autistic or not, Rei have everything for her that's can permit her to read people well (almighty creator being/ manipulator charismatic woman.)
If Rei was just a shy typical shrinking violet moe blush blush, like for example on some fanmangas (I dunno if Shinji Ikari Raising project would be a good example or not ) then yeah, she would really struggle with people. Not that's she do not have trouble sometime in canon.
It's even said it's because autistics people absorb others people emotions like a sponge that's absorb water, that's it's because w h y they're are so akward at interacting with each others. Of course there can be multiples others reasons. But autism or not, sometime and too often the reason why a other(s) is too akward to react to one another it's sometime indeed because you know them way too well.
But for Rei, I admit yeah, she litteraly a psychic. Like, after all, any others angels (Arael) or mighty being, cause she Lilith. And since Lilith is the creator of Lilim, it's only natural for her to be able to read people well. Yui too was really good to read people, to the point of manipulation, the others completely oblivious of it. In any-case autistic or not, Rei have everything for her that's can permit her to read people well (almighty creator being/ manipulator charismatic woman.)
If Rei was just a shy typical shrinking violet moe blush blush, like for example on some fanmangas (I dunno if Shinji Ikari Raising project would be a good example or not ) then yeah, she would really struggle with people. Not that's she do not have trouble sometime in canon.
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
this is the point where someone ought to remind everyone of the difference between applicability & allegory again
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
No it's not directed at anyone personal.
But "this situation could apply to X life situation" and "this is meant to represent X life situation and should be treated with the implications to that in mind" are two pairs of shoes, which is something ppl should keep in mind when discussing "does X speculative fiction thing mean Y serious real life phenomenon"?
There's a value to both that i feel gets forgotten these days. Like, there's a need for stories where it's made outright clear that character A is gay/austistic whatever so ppl can't explain it away & talk about that part of the human existence. The specificity is a feature
But lets look at a story where character A is hiding magical powers that may be relatable to anyone hiding a secret, like gayness or depression or whatever. In that case the polöimorphy is a feature. But ppl will still fight about which one is right or treat anything said about the magical powers as a statement on depression or gayness or whatever & then get mad about it & that misses the point.
"Some autistic ppl might relate to Rei, same as anyone who for whatever reason felt isolated alienated etc." =/= "Rei is meant to be autistic in-universe or a representation/allegory of that", to have productive discussion one should clarify which one they mean
But "this situation could apply to X life situation" and "this is meant to represent X life situation and should be treated with the implications to that in mind" are two pairs of shoes, which is something ppl should keep in mind when discussing "does X speculative fiction thing mean Y serious real life phenomenon"?
There's a value to both that i feel gets forgotten these days. Like, there's a need for stories where it's made outright clear that character A is gay/austistic whatever so ppl can't explain it away & talk about that part of the human existence. The specificity is a feature
But lets look at a story where character A is hiding magical powers that may be relatable to anyone hiding a secret, like gayness or depression or whatever. In that case the polöimorphy is a feature. But ppl will still fight about which one is right or treat anything said about the magical powers as a statement on depression or gayness or whatever & then get mad about it & that misses the point.
"Some autistic ppl might relate to Rei, same as anyone who for whatever reason felt isolated alienated etc." =/= "Rei is meant to be autistic in-universe or a representation/allegory of that", to have productive discussion one should clarify which one they mean
I wanted to try harvesting the rice
I wanted to hold Tsubame more
I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like
I wanted to hold Tsubame more
I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like
Re: Ayanami and Autism
She is a clone with the soul of an alien being who has been sheltered her whole life. That's all. Not everything in Evaneglion has a second meaning.
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
I wouldn't say so, there are many cases of schizoids being equally as severe to Rei in terms of verbal and social ineptitude and severe isolation. Judging by Milon's subtypes, remote schizoids are arguably in more severe mental conditions than Rei even. She seems to fit into the depersonalized schizoid and insipid schizotypal subtypes rather neatly I'd say.
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
I call back to this statement made not too many posts earlier.
Kendrix wrote:But "this situation could apply to X life situation" and "this is meant to represent X life situation and should be treated with the implications to that in mind" are two pairs of shoes, which is something ppl should keep in mind when discussing "does X speculative fiction thing mean Y serious real life phenomenon"?
There's a value to both that i feel gets forgotten these days. Like, there's a need for stories where it's made outright clear that character A is gay/austistic whatever so ppl can't explain it away & talk about that part of the human existence. The specificity is a feature
But lets look at a story where character A is hiding magical powers that may be relatable to anyone hiding a secret, like gayness or depression or whatever. In that case the polöimorphy is a feature. But ppl will still fight about which one is right or treat anything said about the magical powers as a statement on depression or gayness or whatever & then get mad about it & that misses the point.
"Some autistic ppl might relate to Rei, same as anyone who for whatever reason felt isolated alienated etc." =/= "Rei is meant to be autistic in-universe or a representation/allegory of that", to have productive discussion one should clarify which one they mean
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
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Re: Ayanami and Autism
Interesting question,
I will say no beacuse Hideakki Anno once explained in an interview that Ayanami and Asuka are two different type of grils:
>Rei is introverted, loneliness and quiet. Also she has a short hair compared to Asuka. This is why Anno said probably girls with this characteristics would relate to Rei.
>Asuka is extroverted, social, and very expressive. So probably girls with this behavior would relate to Asuka.
But there is not something relate like autism I guess.
He said it here: https://youtu.be/rGJ_Kq8qifQ
I will say no beacuse Hideakki Anno once explained in an interview that Ayanami and Asuka are two different type of grils:
>Rei is introverted, loneliness and quiet. Also she has a short hair compared to Asuka. This is why Anno said probably girls with this characteristics would relate to Rei.
>Asuka is extroverted, social, and very expressive. So probably girls with this behavior would relate to Asuka.
But there is not something relate like autism I guess.
He said it here: https://youtu.be/rGJ_Kq8qifQ
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