If Shinji commits suicide...

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:08 am

Anno's "What were we trying to make here?" statement needs reiterating here.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:the broken society following 2nd Impact.
View Original PostHideaki Anno wrote:A world that has been miraculously revived: its economy, the production, circulation, consumption of material goods, so that even the shelves of convenience stores are filled. A world where the people have gotten used to the resurrection


pwhodges wrote:However, to me the suicide theory is in any case unconvincing for Shinji's character - it's too big a step for him to even consider attempting.
Hideaki Anno wrote:A cowardly young man who feels that his father has abandoned him, and so he has convinced himself that he is a completely unnecessary person, so much so that he cannot even commit suicide.
emphasis mine.
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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:38 am

Fair enough; though I'll mention that on another forum I am just discussing how often writers find that their story demands that they take a different route in the writing than what they had meticulously planned.
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Postby xanderkh » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:08 pm

I prefer the theory that Shinji attempted suicide at the beginning of the movie by drowning, because it not only is relevant to how much he wants to end the pain of himself after he killed Kaworu, but it also makes the "next scene" more poignant of how much he wants to end his own misery with any shred of physical comfort and justification to end his own life.
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Postby one-eyed » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:40 pm

Microsoft_Sam wrote: one-eyed wrote: Holy Sh*t you've got too much time on your hands!

I admit it made me laugh!

Joseki wrote: This is simply what Shinji perceived, we don't know if it is what was really going on. And the story is incomplete so there's no moral yet.

No. This was my view of the situation when I watched the film. Shinji has a lot less information than I do, so he knows a lot less about the reason for the animosity of the Wille members are showing.

xanderkh wrote: Dude, if Shinji was just as hated in the fandom as you say he is, we wouldn't be bothered to defend him in anyway. We'd be just content to just through him to the wolves.


Microsoft_Sam wrote: I was not being sarcastic in my earlier comment FYI. The only person here that hates Shinji as much as as you say people do, is you. If I am wrong, I'll wear that, but what are you doing here if you hate Anno's existence and the series?


Mr.Tines wrote: Hideaki Anno wrote:A cowardly young man who feels that his father has abandoned him, and so he has convinced himself that he is a completely unnecessary person, so much so that he cannot even commit suicide.


I should apologize, because my english is maybe not as good as I think. I am a person who deals with numbers, suddenly I could not explain my ideas clearly. I'm on Shinji's side!

My relationship with Eva has always been masochistic. It's like a bruise that does not heal because I insist on nudging. If I had forgotten this wound would be healed, but as a stubborn child I insist on touch! Insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expect different results.

Shinji is probably the most hated character in Japanese animation. This is a fact. I've never hated the character. Not even for a second. I do not think he had done anything wrong in NGE up to EoE. And I guarantee I would not have done better in the series than he.

The problem starts with EoE. I identified myself with Shinji a lot, so when Hideaki Anno came up with his message that "no matter what happens you have to keep living" caused me a deep contempt for Anno. The goal should be to demonstrate why Shinji should not kill himself, but Anno could not. I do not think he even tried. Between madness and death? I choose death without hesitation. Until when does someone have to live? Until death does not seem like a better thing. Between EoE and a shot in the head? I got the shot in the head.

"But he has to go on living!" Say the romantics.

"Why?" I ask.

"You have to find your own answer!" Say the romantics.

This is not a concrete answer, it is an evasive. The romantics have to make real contortions interpretive and philosophical to get deeply questionable answers. I can not agree with this, especially with the Werther Effect that this work can cause. It requires more courage and willpower to suffer than to die.

When I was 14 I met a boy who said he did not kill himself for being afraid of going to Hell. This is a fitting response for him, for believing in Heaven, in God, in Hell, and in the Devil. This is a concrete answer. It would not suit an atheist, but even an atheist could understand that personal answer.

In Shinji's case I can not understand why he has to continue living. Inertia, maybe? To live by inertia seems to me a stupid thing and if that is the answer would be the most stupid answer I've ever heard! Would the alternative be punishment, since being alive to him is Hell itself? If that's the answer we already have EoE where he wanders alone, completely crazy, making tombstones to empty tombs for what? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? Centuries? If they had put the true ending that (for me!) that is Last B he would still be carrying Rei's amputated arm in that surreal Hell.

Anno sacrificed his characters for his “Tale” and message (whatever that message was!). I prefer to focus on the characters, so I understood what he did, but I did not like it, I did not approve, I did not appreciate the result and I would never have done the same. So I would never be a revolutionary genius like Hideaki Anno? Yes, but considering what EoE did to me and several people I could live with it.

In Japan, suicide is an acceptable way to atone for great crimes, but since "god" hates Shinji (in real life this may be bullshit, but in Eva, Anno is god: a capricious, cruel, vengeful, stingy little god), I doubt Anno will give Shinji that dignity: Death is nothing; but to live defeated and accursed is to die daily.

Look at this and understand how I see the "god" Anno: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA7Jhmu-AZg

Microsoft_Sam wrote: Second of all Anno has stated multiple times that Shinji is his self insert not Gendo. Look up an interview in regards to Shinji.


Gendo: Tragic! Complex! Confused! Hurted! Badass! Tortured by his immense love for Yui and his fear of the invisible bonds that unite people!

Do you really believe in this sh%t?

Plot armor after plot armor and asspull after asspull, Gendo plot armor could withstand the blast from 100 Megatons Tsar Bomb alone. All this plot armor is a massive crutch. It gone too far. The character is infinitely less complex than a straight line and much less deep than a saucer! Anno comes to be ridiculous with the protection to his true avatar!

In fact, Gendo is a selfish, genocidal, monomaniac sociopath. The Bastard King is not just a monster. It is the monster Hideaki Anno wanted to be.

Stillborn wrote: And he does it in style. And that makes him impressive. And he would succeed as well if not for the fact, that the very person he was doing it for, used and betrayed him from the very beginning.


Without this betrayal it would be obvious to all, the invincible Mary Sue that this thing is.

And he deserved to be betrayed! Gendo approached Yui to steal her ideas and discoveries and reach Seele. He betrayed Yui with Naoko, then with Ritsuko and probably Rei. (First mother, then daughter!) Yui only asked one thing for him: "Take care of Shinji for me, dear!" And we saw what he did. And that's all we know! He must have done many worse things!

Microsoft_Sam wrote: Thirdly, the darkest films of Evangelion were made when Anno was in a dark place mentally and had a complete breakdown afterwards, only in the case of Q he had much more people who supported him through it and he wasn't even planning to make Shin Godzilla in favor of continuing with Final (If interviews are to be believed) but changed his mind when one of his accomplices told him to go for it. Now he's in a better place, he shouldn't go even close to those two films in absolute darkness and despair.


What’s wrong with criticizing a show for what they can do better? We point out the flaws so this show can improve. I’m a big fan of the series but I disagree with most of Anno’s ideas and beliefs. Furthermore, Anno said: "Evangelion is like a puzzle, you know. Any person can see it and give his/her own answer. In other words, we’re offering viewers to think by themselves, so that each person can imagine his/her own world. We will never offer the answers, even in the theatrical version. As for many Evangelion viewers, they may expect us to provide the ‘all-about Eva’ manuals, but there is no such thing. Don’t expect to get answers by someone. Don’t expect to be catered to all the time. We all have to find our own answers." Wow! So Anno should not complain when people interpret his "tale" and find him a nihilist, fatalist, Social Darwinist, cynical and hypocritical! He himself has given this right to see him so by wanting to be enigmatic. Who sows the wind, reap the storm!

Ray wrote: People act 'irrationally' (read cruel and pragmatic) because of the sheer scale of things and whats at stake. There'll be time to think about how the human beings suffering in the grand sweeping motions being made later. Because at least in their mind if they don't act this way NOW then the human race, including the ones suffering wont have a 'later'. That's the way Misato sees things.


Misato was not pragmatic and cruel . She was childish and cruel . Veiled accusations, contempt, and threats can be disturbing to anyone, especially without knowing why. If only they had made the accusations, Shinji might have tried to defend himself, but Wille's great heroes did not have time to deal with this inferior brat! I prefer pragmatic cruelty to the childishness of Misato and Wille. If Misato had killed Shinji with the detonator it would have been better for Shinji, because she knows the soulless aberration that Gendo is, and he will not stop until he gets what he wants. I preferred death to cooperate with Gendo and I think Shinji did too. Misato and Wille were idiots and you KNOW IT .

As for the 14 years of suffering they supposedly went through because of Shinji, I just do not believe it. Two angels attacked, Mari has a customized Eva, Gendo has an Evas factory, Neo-Nerv is highly automated (and even has a new logo!), new technologies have been developed, there were several recruits with manuals on the Wunder, but Misato, Ritsuko and the Bridge Bunnies were already experienced suggesting that they had already used the Wunder before, most likely when Eva 09 was the power source. Extrapolating: Did Wille worked for Neo-Nerv? Probably; we do not know. Anything can be valid if you think but try to argue that Wille are not the noble and virtuous heroes who have opposed for years the overwhelming and incommensurable power of the omnipotent and all-knowing Gendo. You will simply be treated worse than a terraplanist at a NASA convention.

Ray wrote: The Allegory breaks down when the scale of that mistake is blown up literally and figuratively to have hurt millions of people. People won't care about whether it was an accident or not. If the law itself does treat you fairly and your name gets cleared. Nobody is gonna treat you like a human being ever again after a screw up that big. Especially if you did something that big by accident, and it's something intrinsic to you physically.


The allegory is still valid because the situation is the same, respecting the proportions. It was not an "accident", it was pure and shameless sabotage! Gendo wanted to wake up Eva 01 and damn the consequences! And Shinji was not even the first pawn! Misato's father was probably the first victim in Gendo's hands during Second Impact. Shinji is not an Übermensch destined to threaten Humanity, in fact he is an unlucky bastard who was born to two monsters and piloted clock bombs twice and had the misfortune to come out alive!

Ray wrote: Transporting a victim in a delicate physical and medical state to another country on an airplane is a bad idea all around. They likely had some plans to bring her parents from Germany to Japan to bring her home and/or monitor her recovery. Of course then shit hit the fan.


Touji was much worse than she was and was moved to safety. The truth is she stayed to have the hospital scene and to watch Asuka fighting, to be gangraped and killed by the MPEs. Without this the impact of EoE would be much smaller!

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Postby Lennik » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:42 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:The Allegory breaks down when the scale of that mistake is blown up literally and figuratively to have hurt millions of people. People won't care about whether it was an accident or not.


This is the insurmountable wall where I honestly don't feel like we'll ever agree.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:19 am

Any ending can be believable if the story proceeding it develops towards it well.
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Postby Ray » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:35 am

View Original PostLennik wrote:This is the insurmountable wall where I honestly don't feel like we'll ever agree.


It's emotionally and intellectually dishonest to the nth degree to have a character responsible for so much suffering (even if it was an accident, even if it was a mistake, even if he feels sorry for it) to get a happy ending.

On this. I suppose we wont come to an accord over until the final movie gets here. IF it ever gets here.
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Re: If Shinji commits suicide...

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:50 am

View Original PostRay wrote:It's emotionally and intellectually dishonest to the nth degree to have a character responsible for so much suffering (even if it was an accident, even if it was a mistake, even if he feels sorry for it) to get a happy ending.

Actually, why? That just reeks of religious intolerance or revenge culture. Also it's been pointed out in another thread that a happy end is not necessarily fluffy clouds and rainbows - survival with a real possibility of building a new future is happiness enough when you've been through so much worse.

On this. I suppose we wont come to an accord over until the final movie gets here. IF it ever gets here.

Seriously: do you have any reason to suppose it won't arrive in the moderately near future?
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Postby Joseki » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:52 am

View Original PostRay wrote:It's emotionally and intellectually dishonest to the nth degree to have a character responsible for so much suffering (even if it was an accident, even if it was a mistake, even if he feels sorry for it) to get a happy ending.


Why? I can't see a single reason for that.
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Postby kuribo-04 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:16 am

Anyone who still believes this movie won't have at least a hopeful ending (if not necessarily "happy") is pretty out of touch with current Anno.
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Postby ArvisTaljik » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:53 pm

View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy wrote:In Q, I was thinking more about Shinji running off with the Ayanami type after Misato told him Wille would protect him if he stayed in their custody. The audience understands that Shinji is simply confused — and so does the leadership at Wille, probably — but would everyone else be as understanding? Would you be understanding if someone you loved died in N3i or 4i?


Shinji suffers from one thing throughout the entirety of the TV series and the new movies: nobody tells him ANYTHING.

Personally, the entirety of the events in Q could have been avoided if Misato and Co. would have just TOLD HIM exactly what happened in the 14 years he was in a coma in Unit 1. You can't expect someone to make the correct decisions when you give them ZERO information upon which to base those decisions.

Seeing Shinji attempt suicide would be workable for the story IMHO, but no, I agree with all the others that suicide is not how NME will end. Anno likes his redemption stories and 3.0+1.0 will be no different. It may not end in butterflies, unicorns and rainbows, but there will be a positive element to it in some way, shape or form.
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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:46 pm

View Original PostArvisTaljik wrote:Personally, the entirety of the events in Q could have been avoided if Misato and Co. would have just TOLD HIM exactly what happened in the 14 years he was in a coma in Unit 1.

First they needed to verify that he was truly Shinji, as a matter of safety; then they started talking - but then Rei came.
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Postby one-eyed » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:49 pm

If they had any real doubts about his identity, they would not have put the second in command, Ritsuko, to put an explosive necklace on him. Misato and Asuka were there too, exposing themselves to a "great risk" to give their "cold reception." They even paraded with the captured captive under armed escort in the Wunder! If there was any question about him do you think Misato would leave Sakura close to him? If he were a Humanoid Abomination (Zeruel impersonating Shinji) he would simply have destroyed the Wunder from within and kidnapped Sakura.

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:19 pm

View Original Postone-eyed wrote:If they had any real doubts about his identity, they would not have put the second in command, Ritsuko, to put an explosive necklace on him.

In the actual movie, Ritsuko explains that Shinji is an Impact trigger capable of awakening Evas. That he's actually Shinji and not a Shinji-shaped not-Shinji thing just means Wille believe he can be reasoned with. It doesn't mean he's not exceedingly dangerous.

For all the complains about Wille's behavior, nobody seems to get at the true essence of how it doesn't make sense. They should have left the kid in the room with the hex pillars, semiconscious and clueless, until Wunder was up and running. Trying to process him when they're on the run from armies of ship-vaporizing monsters and in a hurry to equip Wunder with a power source is the most nonsensical thing in the entire film. :nyao:

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Postby xanderkh » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:21 pm

Maybe we should all agree that EVERYONE did a major fuck-up with each other, and hope in the next movie that they'll all actually calm the fuck down and actually TALK about what's going on instead of vague answers.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:18 pm

I stand by my assertion that if Wille had talked to Shinji the way everyone seems to wish they had, they'd have only driven him Mad from the Revelation. (Fuyutsuki proves this point later.) The human brain can only process new situations and information so quickly.

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Postby Blockio » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:22 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I stand by my assertion that if Wille had talked to Shinji the way everyone seems to wish they had, they'd have only driven him Mad from the Revelation. (Fuyutsuki proves this point later.) The human brain can only process new situations and information so quickly.

Definitely true, but I think we all can agree on that a lot of things in Q only happened because Wille chose to not tell Shinji anything at all
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:48 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Definitely true, but I think we all can agree on that a lot of things in Q only happened because Wille chose to not tell Shinji anything at all

Like what?

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Postby one-eyed » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:25 pm

Reichu wrote: I stand by my assertion that if Wille had talked to Shinji the way everyone seems to wish they had, they'd have only driven him Mad from the Revelation. (Fuyutsuki proves this point later.) The human brain can only process new situations and information so quickly.


Not necessarily. Wille may be childish, but they have no intention of manipulating Shinji to create an impact. It all depends on what actually happened. Shinji really destroyed the world 14 years ago? I find it unlikely because of the various incongruities in the story. Did he awaken Eva? How? If Gendo and Yui have genetically altered Shinji to awaken Eva then he is a victim and not a monster. If Gendo removed Eva's safety locks so he would wake up, then he would be a victim againand Wille's hatred becomes even more childish. Now, if Eva has awakened because of Shinji's subconscious selfish desires, I'm going to laugh. I already think that Anno does not know why Eva awakened and what happened in those lost years. He simply thought 1,2,3,9,10 and forgot the 4,5,6,7, and 8, and now he does not know what to put for that story to settle.

Reichu wrote: Like what?


As Shinji know that Gendo created Reis in masse to use as weapons, for example. He would know that the monster, in total disrespect for Rei's memory, clones her again and again, ad infinitum as if it were a doll in a factory. He would not have run away with Rei Q. Although this still would not explain Wille's animosity. But I still think that Anno simply knows that people do not care that much about hows and whys.

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Postby TheChosenJuan » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:38 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Definitely true, but I think we all can agree on that a lot of things in Q only happened because Wille chose to not tell Shinji anything at all


Well in Q and the movies before and the original movies and kind of in the entire series. If someone would actually talk to him, aside from 'Why are you so down, Shinji' he could've been more productive at all. I mean, he barely fought or did anything on it's own in unit 01. Mostly he was in his "happy" place while the thing went berserk.
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