If Shinji commits suicide...

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby xanderkh » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:15 pm

^Dude, it's Stillborn. He does this all the time.

And no, Shinji is not going to die. Anno is Shinji, at least from a narrative perspective. If Anno allows Shinji to commit suicide, it would be pretty much be saying that all the progress Anno has achieved as a person was amount to nothing, and that Anno himself should've commited suicide long ago.

Let's not forget, Shinji is supposed to have Anno's traits, such as themes of self-loathing and struggle with interacting with people. The whole "destroying the world" aspect of Eva is just a metaphor for all those struggles.

If Shinji commits suicide, that's pretty much Anno admitting to himself that he should commit suicide, considering the funk he was in both after EoE and especially Q.

If Anno can rise above his own self-loathing and inadequacies, why can't Shinji?
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Stillborn » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:20 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:If Anno can rise above his own self-loathing and inadequacies, why can't Shinji?


Uhh, because Anno's self loathing and depression about people being childish, was petty compared to Shinji's "I caused death of millions, and the closest people I had to family, would rather put a bomb collar on me AND said bomb collar instead killed my best friend because of me"?

If Anno ever came back from at least one of such burdens to being happily married, rich and famous, I would concede my point. As it is now? I don't see much Anno in Shinji or the other way around.
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Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

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Postby xanderkh » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:59 pm

I just said that it's all symbolic, a metaphor. Hell, the entire series is a metaphor for the struggles of human interaction and isolation, as well as clinging to the past.

The fact that Anno rose above his younger short-comings and became a better person, I have no doubt that Shinji will become one too.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Stillborn » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:03 am

Fine. you win. I can't argue agains "it's just a cartoon and their traumas aren't real." argument.
At least it still goes along with my Coyote E. Wille comparision.
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Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

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Postby one-eyed » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:59 pm

Shinji in Q reminded me of Frankenstein: “Hateful day when I received life!” - I exclaimed in agony. - “Accursed creator! Why did you form a monster so hideous that even you turned from me in disgust? God, in pity, made man beautiful and alluring, after his own image; but my form is a filthy type of yours, more horrid even from the very resemlance. Satan had his companions, fellow-devils, to admire and encourage him; but I am solitary and abhorred!”

After the Q movie I was a great supporter of Shinji committing suicide. It would end the character's suffering and when they do the reboot they would eliminate Shinji from the cast and he could be forgotten and find peace. I find it absurd to create a character who will never advance, will never be successful, who was created only to fail and be hated. In Anno's head, he must be worse than the villains! I promised Bagheera that I would no longer defend this issue because he reminded me that there are real people who have real struggles with depression and that if I can not help them I will not hurt them also by reaching their weaknesses. I do not want to be a hypocrite like Anno.

In the Babylon Five series, Lórien, the First One, speaks a phrase I always associate with Shinji in Q: "It's easy to find something worth dying for. Do you have anything worth living for? "I want to see if Anno, in the hypothetical fourth movie, will answer that question. I do not believe.

Shinji Ikari Expy wrote: At this point in the tetralogy, Shinji has triggered two apolcalyptic (or near-apocalytpic) disasters by directly disobeying orders from his superiors. In the real world, this would border on criminal negligence; at the very least, it's insubordination that led to other people's deaths. Even if his actions wouldn't constitute a crime in a court of law, there's the court of public opinion, which is far less understanding.


When the comments on the second film began, the Shinji haters shouted, "Shinji awakened Eva! Shinji betrayed Mankind! He destroyed the world to save his doll! "A few Said: "He got badass, finally!" I did not like it because I did not understand what happened. Kaworu, Gendo and Fuyutsuki seemed to be waiting for it. Kaji and Mari too. None of them seemed worried or afraid. Gendo was celebrating what is always bad. When the Devil is happy it is because some misfortune has happened.

However, I decided to wait believing, that this time, I would finally absorb something good from Evangelion. Result? Everyone hates Shinji. The "bastard" destroyed the world by awakening Eva 01!!

I ask how? When I saw it, I think it, I still think and I will continue to argue that Eva 01 did not have any security locks. The theme has appeared so many times in the last two movies that I thought was important: the explosive paste, the pillars that were in Asuka's cryogenic chamber after Bardiel, the Asuka's eye patch, probably the Gendo's visor, but the more important were the pillars that came from the backs of Eva 02 in Ha and Q. Asuka and Mari had to activate access codes (which Shinji did not have!) to remove the security mechanisms: "Za Beasto!" and "Code 777! ", So I still hoped to understand what happened. I cannot condemn someone without being sure of his guilt and what happened. To me Gendo, Ritsuko or Fuyutsuki removed Eva's security locks to make sure it wakes up and damn the consequences! That thing was created to start an impact from day minus 1. Ritsuko and Gendo did this with the Jet Alone at NGE. "Eva" is a story that repeats...

When Asuka Unit 02 stopped and ran out of power, we saw that the panels were still working and that the power level was not at zero . This looks like a security protocol to me.

The history is full of such events. Sometimes for malice, sometimes for incompetence. During the Vietnam War, the M-10 was adapted, resulting in the M-16. What ensued was a total disaster. The weapon was not yet ready to be delivered to the troops, nor were the troops trained to use it.

The recoil system without piston, caused ejection of hot gases in the shooter's face, left-handed shooters also suffered from capsules ejection in the mouth, initial ammunition was not powerful enough and generated too much waste. On the other hand, it has spread the rumor among the soldiers that the rifle would be "self-cleaning" and the troops were no longer maintaining the weapons, when instead the rotating breech system and gas actuation directly on the face of the bolt require that this part is always clean for the gun to function properly.

In the investigation of the congress appeared several bizarre cases. In one of them a platoon of 72 men was reduced to 19, practically every one of the dead was found with his (M16) torn down next to him where he had been trying to fix it. Until today the controversy continues in articles, technical magazines and books. Compared with the Evas this project was a total success. That's what you get by using mad scientists and a bunch of suicidal cultists for leading a military operation!

Another group holds that Unit 01 fulfilled Shinji's subconscious desires because at the time he said he did not care about the world. From the depths of my heart, I think this is a stupid thing. I want anyone to stare at your reflection in the mirror and say, "Shinji destroyed the world because of his subconscious selfish desires!" And try not to feel like an idiot talking about it! Everyone says this or something similar at some point in life! A few weeks after Q's debut, I saw (or rather heard!) my neighbor's daughter screaming that she wanted her parents to die because they shooed her boyfriend. Some time later, she got another boyfriend and forgot the old one completely. This weekend, she and her current boyfriend got engaged! All that anger was purely bullshit! (Probably they will have married and had children before 3.0 + 1.0 premiere!)

As Kosh of Babylon Five once said : “Avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.” The sad truth is that nobody knows how the Eva awakened, what really happened and frankly no one cares! Shinji is a great scapegoat because no one cares about him. At best, romantic people think it's some ridiculous moral lesson from Anno. Shinji is the only one to blame and everything is his sin! Case closed!

Lennik wrote: I think most people pushing the "Everybody hates Shinji and wants him dead" talking point are really just projecting their hurt feelings about the movie onto the characters. As if they think expecting and insisting that the worst will happen is somehow going to soften the blow. That way lies madness and not enjoying the movie very much.


Hate never had to be rational. In GoT, Tywin and Cersei hate and despise Tyrion for having "killed his mother" at birth and for being a dwarf, shaming the family; Catelyn Stark hated and despised Jon Snow for being a bastard to Ned Stark. They probably know that this hatred is irrational, but they feel that way.

I would also have left the Wunder and I will not be a hypocrite to say the opposite especially after catching Misato "lying". I would want answers and I do not think I would get any with Wille. I believe it was El Mariachi who said that on the scene before Rei's arrival, Misato would pass a video on the situation, but the scene went by so fast that I did not see anything and I am the spectator! Hideaki Anno is turning the situation into a popularity contest and it is obvious that Shinji will not win and be heard.

I'll say what I said before: I do not want Shinji reaches Wunder. Wille did not even have to make an accusation! People will crucify first and ignore any argument, it does matter if it is the best legal defense in the world. He will be guilty until the end. Every situation with Wille was stupid I do not even think we'll have an explanation for it. What I want is the fairness of the prosecution, defense and fair trial. I do not like this childish behavior of cold treatment. If you think he's guilty, accuse, let him defend hinself and judge impartially. Threats, imprisonment without charge, cold treatment are things of guerrillas, terrorists or tyrants. If Misato had done this he would not have run away or probably would have because I think the accusations would be pretty stupid:

Misato: "Shinji Ikari, you are accused of widespread global genocide. What you claim: Innocent or guilty? "

Shinji: "What? How did this happen?"

Misato: "Using your vast knowledge of Eva, you awakened the Unit 01, bringing about the Third Impact!"

Shinji: "Do Evas cause impacts? But was not it only if the angels reached Lilith? Vast knowledge of Eva? I do know nothing about that thing! I do not even know why Eva enters berserker! And you did not know either! This is absurd! "

Misato: "Then Eva fulfilled his selfish subconscious desires. You said yourself that you did not care about the world! "

Shinji: "Everybody talks that sometimes and that story is that of Eva grant wishes? Nobody told me that! Why would I ask for the end of the world instead of living with my family together? "

Misato: "Anyway, you're guilty. You'll get this explosive necklace and stay at our mercy until we think about how exposing your guilt, judging you and condemning you without we appearing to be stupid or guilty too."

And I'm being generous with Shinji! He would never defend himself as I am describing! He's just going to bow his head and accept whatever they do to him. I always say that Shinji is basically a mushroom: fed with shit and kept in the dark and he will never get past that. If he gets to the "place of the Lilins" he will be imprisoned in a solitary and forgotten or simply dead because it would be ridiculous a hypothetical judgment of Shinji.

When you make a formal charge, it becomes possible to refute it and even turn the tables. So Anno was vague with Wille, and when Kaworu made his accusations Shinji was so emotionally shaken (and the audience too!) that he accepted without questioning how and why. He simply accepted the face value!

Returning to NGE, Kaworu has always been an ambiguous character (and I'm referring to his character and motivations!). If I remember correctly, when Kaworu invaded the Central Dogma, he used Eva 02 to fight Shinji while he would make contact with Adam. Kaworu used his AT Field to completely isolate the area. Later, Rei/Lilith used her own AT Field to neutralize Kaworu's. Soon after Eva 02 simply stops. Kaworu begins his martyr speech and convinces Shinji to kill him, but the truth is likely that he did not need die. Without an active AT Field he was completely helpless (he had the strongest AT Field, but it was the physically weakest of the angels). I think even Hikari or Kensuke could dominate him using a baseball bat. I guess he could not even get out of the place where he was suspended! He chose to die that way. Dying as a martyr, sacrified for all Humanity has marked Kaworu in Shinji's life forever. That was his "victory." In the manga, he was more honest and cut off the messianic bullshit and martyr impersonation. The effect on Shinji was intense, but not as negative as in NGE. So, the manga version is by far my favorite. I respect your honesty a lot.

In Q, he was even more ambiguous: he spoke about a "sin" that Shinji committed and that he was accused of destroying the world. I find this totally impossible. He said that Shinji needed the spears to redeem himself and save what was left of the world, but at no time did he tell Shinji what they do, how they work, how they activate and what the hell they were doing in the Central Dogma inside of the barrier of Lilith. There were even accusations that Shinji was selfishly trying to rewrite the story so he would not have to pay for his crimes and sins, but that too is bullshit because Kaworu never spoke of rewriting the story, not even Shinji mentioned anything about it (Barry Allen has that addiction!). This idea was suggested by the title itself and by the fandom habit of writing time travels fanfictions.

We know almost nothing of Kaworu. What was his real purpose. What was the use of the spears and how the hell did they activate. Anno was so weird with this part that it made Shinji block Kaworu to get the spears and then made the Kaworu easily take control of Eva 13. The only thing I know is that Kaworu became the thirteenth Angel and that this is not good thing. Asuka and Rei were already trapped inside an Eva possessed or absorbed by angels, and it was not a good experience! "Eva" is a story that repeats... I think Shinji was very lucky that Kaworu died. The Devil is always more dangerous when he is charming...

Joseki wrote: The narrative in Eva is more symbolic and emotional than purely logical, events happen because Anno wants to express a message or convey a feeling, not because of likelihood. Clear example: no one in Eva ever thought "you know what? Some psychological help will surely improve our pilots' performance and reliability on the battlefield!" It's obvious that in a real world scenario that would be on top of NERV's priorities.


Shinji Ikari Expy wrote: That Marvel comics movie scene where the woman blames Tony Starks for her son's death — in real life, this would happen to Shinji about a million times. I mean, remember when Anno became depressed about all the hate mail he got after EoTV? Multiply that by about 10,000. The families of people who have been killed violently or through recklessness (as they perceive it) aren't very understanding of the plight of the person they deem responsible, and I don't blame them.


This is the point. It is disproportionate. People do not act rationally with events of this magnitude. I'll make a simplistic analogy: Shinji is watching television and sees Rei being beaten on the street. Immediately he runs off and finds Gendo; He begs that he needs the car to save Rei. Gendo lends the key and when the car starts, it explodes. Shinji kills 25 people and, in addition, he falls into a coma. By pure chance (actually part of Gendo's grand plan!), he wakes up 14 years later and receives 25 counts of murder. Everyone hates him, including Misato and Asuka. And Gendo was promoted to King of the Lilins. What was his mistake? What was his crime? What was his sin? What is the moral of the story? Sh%t happens?

Anno has done this several times in EoE: sacrificing the characters and logic to play with people's emotions: there was a scene that showed the farewell of Shinji, Touji and Kensuke before the disgusting hospital scene, but Anno cut. Why? It would have been a good closure for the characters and would not have consumed much time and resources.

The simplest answer is that it would make people think. Realistically, Asuka should not even be in Tokyo-3. All the non-essential personnel had already been evacuated. Hikari, Touji (who was also injured), Kensuke and all the children in the school were already gone. Even Pen-Pen was no longer in the war zone (it was with Hikari). Asuka had tried to kill herself and her data was removed from Eva 02 to be replaced for Kaworu's. She has father. She has a stepmother. She should have been sent to them in Germany! Why have not she gone? Because without the hospital scene more than half the impact of EoE would not exist! Imagine if everyone acted rationally, and Asuka was on her way to Germany and the hospital scene was replaced by the farewell of Shinji, Touji and Kensuke? Imagine Shinji coming home. The place is totally empty. He prepares a solitary meal. Fully absorbed in her Jyhad against Seele, Misato is almost never at home. Shinji picks up his things and walks around the empty city to the train station and leaves the way he came. The cycle closes. Was it the same "revolutionary" film? Mark Twain’s novel Adventures of Huckleberry Finn opens with a highly memorable statement:"Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot." This can be applied to EoE and Rebuilding.


Microsoft_Sam wrote: In any case, I don't think Anno has Shinji whacking himself as a plan. Would only make him feel bad. He's too attached to the character.


It's hard to differentiate sarcasm from sincerity on the Internet, so, I'm sorry, but you're talking serious?

Lennik wrote: Saving someone from suicide is not "pampering," and no character we're supposed to sympathize with would say it is.

Jesus, people.


Evangelion is a popularity contest. Rarely does anyone criticize Gendo, then picture Misato and Asuka! They can do whatever they want and the fandom will protect them.

xanderkh wrote: I just said that it's all symbolic, a metaphor. Hell, the entire series is a metaphor for the struggles of human interaction and isolation, as well as clinging to the past.

The fact that Anno rose above his younger short-comings and became a better person, I have no doubt that Shinji will become one too.


Anno even said that people never change. He certainly has not changed. And if he had any plans in mind for Shinji he would not have waited years to run it, since the character's image as monster, asshole, sexual predator, traitor, etc. is more than cemented in the minds of fans. The character will never get rid of this stigma. Who has never known the obscenity that is EoE, must have heard of and now thanks to rebuilding hatred for the character only increased.

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Postby Joseki » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:36 pm

View Original Postone-eyed wrote:This is the point. It is disproportionate. People do not act rationally with events of this magnitude. I'll make a simplistic analogy: Shinji is watching television and sees Rei being beaten on the street. Immediately he runs off and finds Gendo; He begs that he needs the car to save Rei. Gendo lends the key and when the car starts, it explodes. Shinji kills 25 people and, in addition, he falls into a coma. By pure chance (actually part of Gendo's grand plan!), he wakes up 14 years later and receives 25 counts of murder. Everyone hates him, including Misato and Asuka. And Gendo was promoted to King of the Lilins. What was his mistake? What was his crime? What was his sin? What is the moral of the story? Sh%t happens?


This is simply what Shinji perceived, we don't know if it is what was really going on. And the story is incomplete so there's no moral yet.
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Postby xanderkh » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:51 pm

Dude, if Shinji was just as hated in the fandom as you say he is, we wouldn't be bothered to defend him in anyway. We'd be just content to just through him to the wolves.

And yet, how many of us here, VEHEMENTLY I might add, defend the poor kid? He has faults, yes, but that does not make him unredeemable.

And, the reason why nobody says anything about Gendo compared to Shinji? Because there's nothing too say already. He's a bastard who was willing to put the world through hell just for his own happiness.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Stillborn » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:57 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote: He's a bastard who was willing to put the world through hell just for his own happiness.


And he does it in style. And that makes him impressive. And he would succeed as well if not for the fact, that the very person he was doing it for, used and betrayed him from the very beginning.
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Postby xanderkh » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:40 pm

^
So if you admit that the entire deck is stacked against Shinji, how is HE the failure when it's the world that's failing him? How's he supposed to know what to do if the world keeps offering him contradictory information and sets him up to fail?

Just because Gendo does his job as a bastard WELL, doesn't make him any less of a bastard.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Microsoft_Sam » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:42 pm

View Original Postone-eyed wrote:Holy Sh*t you've got too much time on your hands!


OK, what you said is objectively wrong. For starters, Shinji is not even close to the hate sink that you claim him to be! All I've seen on other sites and foruma after Q in regards to him and the other characters is that they want including Asuka and Misato (especially Misato) dead. And Gendo is the real monster in the eyes of the fandom. The amount of sympathy that the fans have for Shinji is unparalleled.

Second of all Anno has stated multiple times that Shinji is his self insert not Gendo. Look up an interview in regards to Shinji.

Thirdly, the darkest films of Evangelion were made when Anno was in a dark place mentally and had a complete breakdown afterwards, only in the case of Q he had much more people who supported him through it and he wasn't even planning to make Shin Godzilla in favor of continuing with Final (If interviews are to be believed) but changed his mind when one of his accomplices told him to go for it. Now he's in a better place, he shouldn't go even close to those two films in absolute darkness and despair.

I was not being sarcastic in my earlier comment FYI. The only person here that hates Shinji as much as as you say people do, is you. If I am wrong, I'll wear that, but what are you doing here if you hate Anno's existence and the series?
Last edited by Microsoft_Sam on Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:37 pm

Just a reminder of a few measures of the hatred for Shinji:
View Original Postpwhodges wrote:* Shinji ranked 25th on IGN's first top 25 anime characters list.
* In 2014, IGN ranked him as the greatest anime character of all time,
* In a Newtype poll from March 2010, Shinji was voted as the most popular male character from the 1990s.
* The 19th and the 20th Animage Grand Prix ranked him the best male character of the year.
* Nick Verboon of Unreality Mag states "poster boy/protagonist Shinji is one of the most nuanced, popular, and relatable characters in anime history.
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Postby Lennik » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:11 pm

View Original Postone-eyed wrote:Hate never had to be rational. In GoT, Tywin and Cersei hate and despise Tyrion for having "killed his mother" at birth and for being a dwarf, shaming the family; Catelyn Stark hated and despised Jon Snow for being a bastard to Ned Stark. They probably know that this hatred is irrational, but they feel that way.


Except in this case, "they" are Misato and Asuka and co., and they don't feel that way. Demonstrably.

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:23 am

Two pages of "If Shinji commits suicide..."?

I mean, he won't. That's not the story.

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:05 am

It's all but confirmed that Neon Genesis Shinji tried to drown himself shortly before the beginning of Ep.25^1, and seeing as how New Theatrical Shinji is way more active and passionate, it's not out of the question. I know Misato will certainly be surprised to see him, but I'm sure that will turn to pure malice once Asuka and Mari report that he pulled the spears, against even the warning of Kaworu. If the time loop thing is true, Kaworu's obsession with Shinji might be more than infatuation with human emotions, it could very well be that Shinji is the reason the world keeps repeating itself, with slightly differing variables each time, that all add up and completely change the course of history. If Shinji kills himself, the time loop might stop.
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Re: If Shinji commits suicide...

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Postby Lennik » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:43 pm

Wasn't Instrumentality sort of a metaphor for suicide in the first place? I would be very surprised if Anno goes the route of "You have to stop committing suicide in every continuity, by doing it for real this time."

But I would also be very surprised (and disappointed) if 3.0+1.0 doesn't at least deal with the subject of suicide in some way, even though we know Shinji's not actually going to go through with it, for all the aforementioned narrative reasons.

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Re: If Shinji commits suicide...

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Postby Guy Nacks » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:08 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkobitch wrote:It's all but confirmed that Neon Genesis Shinji tried to drown himself shortly before the beginning of Ep.25^1,


That theory was debunked years ago on this forum.
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Re: If Shinji commits suicide...

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Postby Ray » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:27 pm

This is the point. It is disproportionate. People do not act rationally with events of this magnitude.


I can at least concede this much. When it comes to events that involve the literal end of the world. People act 'irrationally' (read cruel and pragmatic) because of the sheer scale of things and whats at stake. There'll be time to think about how the human beings suffering in the grand sweeping motions being made later. Because at least in their mind if they don't act this way NOW then the human race, including the ones suffering wont have a 'later'. That's the way Misato sees things. But her emphasis on that keeps her from realizing just how much she's been hurting Shinji until it's too late for anyone. It took her literally getting shot and dying to realize that in EOE. It'll probably be something similar to make her realize that in Final.

I'll make a simplistic analogy: Shinji is watching television and sees Rei being beaten on the street. Immediately he runs off and finds Gendo; He begs that he needs the car to save Rei. Gendo lends the key and when the car starts, it explodes. Shinji kills 25 people and, in addition, he falls into a coma. By pure chance (actually part of Gendo's grand plan!), he wakes up 14 years later and receives 25 counts of murder. Everyone hates him, including Misato and Asuka. And Gendo was promoted to King of the Lilins. What was his mistake? What was his crime? What was his sin? What is the moral of the story? Sh%t happens?


The Allegory breaks down when the scale of that mistake is blown up literally and figuratively to have hurt millions of people. People won't care about whether it was an accident or not. If the law itself does treat you fairly and your name gets cleared. Nobody is gonna treat you like a human being ever again after a screw up that big. Especially if you did something that big by accident, and it's something intrinsic to you physically. Then you're a potential threat to everyone and need to be kept either under control(via an exploding collar) or terminated to keep you from hurting that many people ever again. Because you can't control it, you can't be responsible with it, so you need someone else there to do both for you.

Robert Heinlein has this to say of Martian Demigod Valentine in 'Stranger In A Strange Land".

“Consider the black widow spider. It's a timid little beast, useful and, for my taste, the prettiest of the arachnids, with its shiny, patent-leather finish and its red hourglass trademark. But the poor thing has the fatal misfortune of possessing enormously too much power for its size. So everybody kills it on sight.”

Shinji is that Spider. He had the misfortune to be born with too much potentially dangerous and world ending power for his small frame.

Anno has done this several times in EoE: sacrificing the characters and logic to play with people's emotions: there was a scene that showed the farewell of Shinji, Touji and Kensuke before the disgusting hospital scene, but Anno cut. Why? It would have been a good closure for the characters and would not have consumed much time and resources.


Because Shinji cut off his relationship with Touji and Kensuke out of guilt for what happened to Touji at the Bardiel incident, he was too ashamed to face them even though it wasn't his fault. But his guilt complex kept him from doing so.

The simplest answer is that it would make people think. Realistically, Asuka should not even be in Tokyo-3. All the non-essential personnel had already been evacuated. . . . .Asuka had tried to kill herself and her data was removed from Eva 02 to be replaced for Kaworu's. She has father. She has a stepmother. She should have been sent to them in Germany! Why have not she gone?


Transporting a victim in a delicate physical and medical state to another country on an airplane is a bad idea all around. They likely had some plans to bring her parents from Germany to Japan to bring her home and/or monitor her recovery. Of course then shit hit the fan. Also, most non-essential personal not being there. Means there weren't enough people to properly monitor Asuka. The events of Asuka being found in the tub, Kaworus death etc. Only happened within a few days of each other. Even if they they were planning to transport her to Germany, they didn't have the time to get things in order before the events of the EOE happened. Keep in mind this is in an era before the internet. Communication is nowhere near as instantaneous as it is today.

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Shinji's not Athletic, nor is the summer in Tokyo-3 that hot. Theres no way he'd be sweating that much. Furthermore, given the barebones the material he gives us it's not unreasonable the audience would interpret it that way.
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Re: If Shinji commits suicide...

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Postby Guy Nacks » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:45 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Shinji's not Athletic, nor is the summer in Tokyo-3 that hot. Theres no way he'd be sweating that much. Furthermore, given the barebones the material he gives us it's not unreasonable the audience would interpret it that way.


What would being athletic or not have to do with whether or not he sweats? When I saw the film for the first time, I assumed it was sweat. It's shown to be hot outside. I must have watched the film several times after that before coming across the theory that his head is actually wet because he attempted to drown himself. It's not a bad theory, but whoever drew the storyboards wanted to expressly point out that the moisture that appears to be on Shinji's face is indeed sweat and nothing more significant than that.
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

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Re: If Shinji commits suicide...

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:04 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Shinji's not Athletic, nor is the summer in Tokyo-3 that hot. Theres no way he'd be sweating that much. Furthermore, given the barebones the material he gives us it's not unreasonable the audience would interpret it that way.
The whole aesthetic of that opening sequence is of the sun beating mercilessly down, "too hot to do anything" weather. Add in the fact that the Tokyo area tends to humid heat, and you would be dripping just taking a short walk.
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Re: If Shinji commits suicide...

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:02 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Keep in mind this is in an era before the internet. Communication is nowhere near as instantaneous as it is today.

What? I had an Internet connection eight years before the birth of Asuka. A couple of years before NGE was developed, even - so there's no reason to think the technology wasn't thought of as available, even if it's not a "thing" in the broken society following 2nd Impact.

Shinji's not Athletic, nor is the summer in Tokyo-3 that hot. There's no way he'd be sweating that much.

Weather can vary; but in any case, maybe you're forgetting the climate change induced by 2nd Impact. (And not being athletic means that a given amount of effort is likely to produce more sweat.)

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:It's not a bad theory, but whoever drew the storyboards wanted to expressly point out that the moisture that appears to be on Shinji's face is indeed sweat and nothing more significant than that.

But you can't keep a good theory down! This post follows the one you linked:
View Original PostLukeMM95 wrote:The theory that he tried to drown himself just before the movie started is a lot more interesting than it just being sweat. Regardless of what the storyboard says, that's how I choose to perceive it.

However, to me the suicide theory is in any case unconvincing for Shinji's character - it's too big a step for him to even consider attempting.
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