If Shinji commits suicide...

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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If Shinji commits suicide...

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Postby C.T.1290 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:36 am

...How do you think it would impact the series, as well as the cast?

I have a feeling that when Shinji gets back aboard the Wunder, it will not end well for him. He'll most likely be sentenced to solitary confinement, and the crew, especially Misato or Asuka, will no doubt be hasher to him than ever before. It will only be a matter of time before he can no longer take the cruel treatment everyone is giving him, quite possibly leading him to commit suicide.

How do you think that would impact everyone?
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:10 pm

Shinji won't commit suicide. Not because "he doesn't have the guts to do it," but rather because Shinji was always the focal point upon which Anno hung the entire Evangelion franchise. No Shinji? No Eva.

But, if Shinji commits suicide in Shin Eva, my guess would be that the movie will take on a very heavy Enter the Void vibe, and will possibly retread a lot of the techniques used in EoTV in order to do so.

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Postby Chuckman » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:14 pm

What if he already did?

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Postby Lennik » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:37 pm

Personally, I'm far more interested in the question of what would happen if Shinji got caught attempting suicide.

Pissed off at him or not, that's a hell of a wake-up call to Misato and Asuka any way you slice it. And you get to see that wake-up call play out without sacrificing your main character and stopping the narrative in its tracks.

If Shinji's placed in solitary confinement, I think that hinders the plot from going forward, so I don't see solitary confinement lasting very long. I see an interrogation by a possibly very angry Misato and a cold Ritsuko, but yelling gets them nowhere, since it's very hard to carry on admonishing an emotionally devastated boy who barely responds to your scolding with grunts and answers questions like "What were you thinking?" with "I don't know" and "I don't want to talk about it anymore." Eventually I assume they let him wander the ship, as long as he wears a DSS choker and doesn't touch anything.

Which isn't to say the few people who know what he's responsible for wouldn't have some choice words for him when they see him walking the corridors of the ship. There's a scene in Captain America: Civil War, probably the only scene in the entire movie that I actually like, where a woman who blames Tony Stark for her son's death calmly corners him by the elevator and just unloads all of her grievances on him in such a smoldering furious matter-of-fact way that it makes him completely unravel on the spot. He just stares at her, horrified and looking like he's on the verge of a heart attack, because that's all he can do when someone shoves a photo of her dead son against his chest and says "I blame you."

I can't see Shinji going all cold-hearted and nihilistic when people affected by his mistakes corner him like that and tell him how they feel. He's not his father. I see him quietly taking their condemnations without a word, but completely breaking down when it's over. That's one of the few interactions he actually gets to have with another person, since most people probably just avoid him. I see him quietly returning to his room, or his glorified cell, or wherever he sleeps at night, and trying to drown himself in the bath, since it calls back to being immersed in LCL.

Maybe the DSS choker alerts Misato when it detects a deadly change in Shinji's vital signs, and he's found that way and resuscitated. And naturally, this freaks some people out. Because how angry can they really stay after they catch him trying to kill himself out of shame for the thing they're angry at him about? Let's keep in mind, they do not hate him, contrary to what some of the overzealous fans will argue. I think most people pushing the "Everybody hates Shinji and wants him dead" talking point are really just projecting their hurt feelings about the movie onto the characters. As if they think expecting and insisting that the worst will happen is somehow going to soften the blow. That way lies madness and not enjoying the movie very much.

But actually having him succeed in killing himself is a narrative dead-end, and not something I think Anno would be inclined to do anyway.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:28 pm

View Original PostLennik wrote:Personally, I'm far more interested in the question of what would happen if Shinji got caught attempting suicide.

Pissed off at him or not, that's a hell of a wake-up call to Misato and Asuka any way you slice it. And you get to see that wake-up call play out without sacrificing your main character and stopping the narrative in its tracks.

Yes, that'd be interesting to see. Hopefully, we'll get to see that in Final. And it also sounds a like good fanfiction if there's anything like it out that explores this concept.
Let's keep in mind, they do not hate him, contrary to what some of the overzealous fans will argue. I think most people pushing the "Everybody hates Shinji and wants him dead" talking point are really just projecting their hurt feelings about the movie onto the characters.

Yes, I guess I did feel this way towards Misato and Asuka while watching the film. Which was sort of why I've been seeking some form of punishment onto them for the harsh way they treated Shinji. And as for this claim that they do not hate him, well, I guess we'll see when the final movie comes out.
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Postby Ray » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:39 am

I'll say what I said before.

Anno can't have streamlined the story of the series to focus on HIS story (sometimes at the expense of developing other characters and fleshing out WTF happened) to just have him die after 3/4ths of his story is over.
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Postby Joseki » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:12 am

"Eva" is a story that repeats.
It is a story where the main character witnesses many horrors with his own eyes, but still tries to stand up again.
It is a story of will; a story of moving forward, if only just a little.
It is a story of fear, where someone who must face indefinite solitude fears reaching out to others, but still wants to try.


Suicide doesn't fit the theme of the story Anno wanted to tell us.



And to be fair even if it fitted I can't imagine how Anno could make a movie having Shinji suicide a few days after he arrives at the Wunder. It's impossible to make a Eva movie without Shinji.
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Postby Ray » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:40 am

View Original PostLennik#871280 wrote:Personally, I'm far more interested in the question of what would happen if Shinji got caught attempting suicide.


I fully expect that to actually happen in the Final movie. Hell, Shinji did try to drown himself in the original NGE so I fully expect something like that to happen.

Which isn't to say the few people who know what he's responsible for wouldn't have some choice words for him when they see him walking the corridors of the ship. There's a scene in Captain America: Civil War, probably the only scene in the entire movie that I actually like, where a woman who blames Tony Stark for her son's death calmly corners him by the elevator and just unloads all of her grievances on him in such a smoldering furious matter-of-fact way that it makes him completely unravel on the spot. He just stares at her, horrified and looking like he's on the verge of a heart attack, because that's all he can do when someone shoves a photo of her dead son against his chest and says "I blame you."


I understand people can get emotional in the heat of the moment after a loss, and put the blame where it doesn't belong. But blaming a Superhero for the death of your Son is like blaming a police officer or Fireman for not helping enough in a drastic emergency when they did all they could in an effed up situation. That's part of the reason I didn't really like Civil War. Loki and The Chitauri were going to attack regardless of whether or not the Avengers actually existed. Whiplash would have hated The Starks and attacked the racetrack to get revenge regardless of whether or not he became Iron Man. Hydra and Red Skull would still be out there if Captain America had never existed. Blaming the Superhero for the death of a bystander is like blaming a Fireman for the house burning down.

Like it or not, without Shinji going God-mode to save Rei (which I guess I can concede was a pretty selfish thing to do) the theoretical woman yelling at him wouldn't be around to yell at him. Don't blame the Fireman. Blame the Arsonist.

Of course after 3.33. I think the theoretical woman would be totally in the right about it. What Shinji did in that movie pretty much sealed humanitys fate. Even if he didn't know what he was doing, I doubt she'd see that as an excuse.

I can't see Shinji going all cold-hearted and nihilistic when people affected by his mistakes corner him like that and tell him how they feel. He's not his father. I see him quietly taking their condemnations without a word, but completely breaking down when it's over. That's one of the few interactions he actually gets to have with another person, since most people probably just avoid him. I see him quietly returning to his room, or his glorified cell, or wherever he sleeps at night, and trying to drown himself in the bath, since it calls back to being immersed in LCL.


You'd be surprised how angry Shinji can get. Like if someone did confront him in the way this happened. Shinji would either a) shut down or b) do to her what he did to Asuka in EOE. Maybe screaming as he's lashing out about how "I didn't mean for this to happen! I already feel bad! Leave me alone! You think you're the only one who's lost people? What about my pain? Doesn't that matter too?"

Just once. I 'd like to see Shinji lash out about how unfair he's being treated. I don't mean just whine. I mean lash out. Get violent, let the world know just how unhappy he is. But Anno wont allow him even that. He just has to sit there and take it and mope about how being him sucks.

Maybe the DSS choker alerts Misato when it detects a deadly change in Shinji's vital signs, and he's found that way and resuscitated. And naturally, this freaks some people out. Because how angry can they really stay after they catch him trying to kill himself out of shame for the thing they're angry at him about?


I'm sure SOME people would feel sorry for him after that. Maybe less people would outright hate him. But at the same time. I wonder if Jeffery Dahmer or a similar person attempted suicide if the families of his victims would be happy he failed in the attempt.

Shinji hasn't committed cannibalism, but he's if not outright guilty at least a key figure in the deaths of thousands to maybe billions of people. Hell maybe people don't hate him. As in a visceral way, but they do feel that it would be better off for everyone if he did die. He's dangerous. Him coming back caused an impact. Do you think people would want to risk him repeating that.

It would probably if nothing else cause a divide in the Wunder Crew.

Let's keep in mind, they do not hate him, contrary to what some of the overzealous fans will argue. I think most people pushing the "Everybody hates Shinji and wants him dead" talking point are really just projecting their hurt feelings about the movie onto the characters. As if they think expecting and insisting that the worst will happen is somehow going to soften the blow. That way lies madness and not enjoying the movie very much.


Well. . . it WILL soften the blow. After the shit Shinji did in 3.33. After the 14 year time skip killing his relationships with the others, After the DSS choker, Misato treating him like dirt, Asuka calling him a brat, Gendo getting what he wanted, and Kaworu f*cking dying. There is literally no way it can end happily for anyone, least of all him. Expecting the worst from Final means I don't have to deal with as much pain when the hammer of despair finally drops.

And if by some miracle it doesn't drop? I'll be happy that all that dread was for nothing. But at least this way I'm prepared for it.

But actually having him succeed in killing himself is a narrative dead-end, and not something I think Anno would be inclined to do anyway.


If nothing else, on this at least. We can agree. Shinji is in a dark place, and sometimes I do think he'd be better off dead. But Suicide is not the answer. Least of all for the kind of Story Anno wants to tell. For better or worse.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby Stillborn » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:06 am

View Original PostRay wrote:I
Just once. I 'd like to see Shinji lash out about how unfair he's being treated. I don't mean just whine. I mean lash out. Get violent, let the world know just how unhappy he is.


He already did that after Bardiel, when he attacked NERV with Eva. As everything he does on his own, it ended in pathetic failure.

As for Shinji commiting suicide... That would be Anno admitting, that all this trauma conga line, especially on the shoulders of a kid can... *le gasp* break them!

But as long as Shinji dont die, he can have universe heap abuse on him with clear conscience. It's like Coyote E. Willie. He fails time after time and suffers every five minutes, but since he wont die, audience can enjoy the shadenfreude without feeling guilty.
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Postby Microsoft_Sam » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:14 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:He already did that after Bardiel, when he attacked NERV with Eva. As everything he does on his own, it ended in pathetic failure.

As for Shinji commiting suicide... That would be Anno admitting, that all this trauma conga line, especially on the shoulders of a kid can... *le gasp* break them!

But as long as Shinji dont die, he can have universe heap abuse on him with clear conscience. It's like Coyote E. Willie. He fails time after time and suffers every five minutes, but since he wont die, audience can enjoy the shadenfreude without feeling guilty.


I found Spike Spencer's evageeks account. It's Stillborn.

In any case, I don't think Anno has Shinji whacking himself as a plan. Would only make him feel bad. He's too attached to the character.
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Postby Ray » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:54 am

Nothing Anno does could draw as much emotion out of me out of me as this.

SPOILER: Show
Image
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:06 am

I used the last frame of that as my avi for a while.

The comic is available with pop-up translations.
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Postby Ray » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:58 am

I'd like to think that he landed in a suicide net, and Misato used it as an opportunity to fake his death and spirit him away from Wille.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
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Postby Stillborn » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:59 am

Considering Wunder usually flights at high speed, it would be hard to prepare net on such a short notice. Besides, net is a waste of time and resources that could be used for saving the world. They're not obligated to pamper the brat. And since they most likely flew over ocean, there won't be need to scrape his body off the ground. All worked out in the end in the greater picture.
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Postby Shinji Ikari Expy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:49 am

It would be incredibly silly for the last movie to end with Shinji killing himself. It's obvious that Anno has a redemptive ending in mind; the question is, how will he do it?

But I don't blame some of you who are despairing about this. I have similar feelings about it. I can't see how Anno & Co. will believably redeem this character after the past two movies. They will try to sell it, but I'm not sure how they can do it convincingly.

At this point in the tetralogy, Shinji has triggered two apolcalyptic (or near-apocalytpic) disasters by directly disobeying orders from his superiors. In the real world, this would border on criminal negligence; at the very least, it's insubordination that led to other people's deaths. Even if his actions wouldn't constitute a crime in a court of law, there's the court of public opinion, which is far less understanding.

That Marvel comics movie scene where the woman blames Tony Starks for her son's death — in real life, this would happen to Shinji about a million times. I mean, remember when Anno became depressed about all the hate mail he got after EoTV? Multiply that by about 10,000. The families of people who have been killed violently or through recklessness (as they perceive it) aren't very understanding of the plight of the person they deem responsible, and I don't blame them.

I think I would go profoundly insane with guilt in Shinji's position.

I suppose I'm overthinking it, though. The final movie isn't going to end with "Shinji was later court martialed and sentenced to two years' confinement and dishonorably discharged" or "Shinji OD'd on antidepressants after years of drug addiction. His death was ruled a suicide. THE END" — because that would seriously suck as an ending to a story. But I understand why some of you are having trouble imagining a 3.0+1.0 movie that doesn't end with Shinji flattening the top of a taxicab. At this point, I'm hoping the ending will NOT be believable, but will just be emotionally satisfying.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:33 am

View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy wrote:At this point in the tetralogy, Shinji has triggered two apolcalyptic (or near-apocalytpic) disasters by directly disobeying orders from his superiors.

Well, not all of them, exactly; in Ha, Misato offered words of encouragement, and in Q he was following Gendō's order to go with Kaworu (who later told him he thought it was going wrong, but didn't exactly give an order - and does he count as Shinji's superior in this case?).
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Postby Shinji Ikari Expy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:17 pm

In Q, I was thinking more about Shinji running off with the Ayanami type after Misato told him Wille would protect him if he stayed in their custody. The audience understands that Shinji is simply confused — and so does the leadership at Wille, probably — but would everyone else be as understanding? Would you be understanding if someone you loved died in N3i or 4i?

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Postby Joseki » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:43 pm

Shinji Ikari Expy wrote:It would be incredibly silly for the last movie to end with Shinji killing himself. It's obvious that Anno has a redemptive ending in mind; the question is, how will he do it?

But I don't blame some of you who are despairing about this. I have similar feelings about it. I can't see how Anno & Co. will believably redeem this character after the past two movies. They will try to sell it, but I'm not sure how they can do it convincingly.

At this point in the tetralogy, Shinji has triggered two apolcalyptic (or near-apocalytpic) disasters by directly disobeying orders from his superiors. In the real world, this would border on criminal negligence; at the very least, it's insubordination that led to other people's deaths. Even if his actions wouldn't constitute a crime in a court of law, there's the court of public opinion, which is far less understanding.


The narrative in Eva is more symbolic and emotional than purely logical, events happen because Anno wants to express a message or convey a feeling, not because of likelihood. Clear example: no one in Eva ever thought "you know what? Some psychological help will surely improve our pilots' performance and reliability on the battlefield!" It's obvious that in a real world scenario that would be on top of NERV's priorities.

Shinji triggering N3I and 4I isn't really about directly disobeying orders from his superiors.
N3I was triggered by Shinji's desire to have Rei back, the same desire that stopped Zeruel from erasing mankind altogether. Hadn't Shinji desired to at least have Rei back the Eva battery would have depleted and Zeruel would have reached Lilith, it's stated by Misato that NERV was totally powerless. No one actually "ordered" him anything.
When Shinji returned to life in Q he's attributed responsibility by Wille and Kaworu for what he caused, but he's never directly accused of having acted in a criminal, or even wrong, way.
What Ritsuko told Shinji is that they put the DSS choker on him as a sign of mistrust and a safety measure in case his emotions trigger another Impact while piloting (it implies that Wille at least considered the possibility of letting Shinji pilot Unit 01 again sometime in the future).
4I was a totally different case, Shinji was manipulated and forced perfectly by Gendo and Kaworu to the point of having no other option than pulling the lances. Gendo forced Shinji to get close to Kaworu like he forced him to get close to Rei (it gets mentioned in Ha), Kaworu convinced Shinji that his old friends turned their backs on him and he gave him the chance of fixing everything. It's obvious that when Kaworu told him to gave up he didn't listen, the moment he got back in the Eva it became "Lances or bust" for him, he had no back up scenario whatsoever. NERV was a literal wasteland, Wille pleaded him one thing and it was to not get back in the Eva.

Anno crafted Shinji's actions in such a way that makes it impossible for us viewers to pinpoint an incontestable accusation.
Did he act naively? Yes he did, he was raised and he got brainwashed to be that way.
Did he failed to listen to the right people? Yes he did, he was manipulated into doing so.
Every "mistake" Shinji made can be easily and efficiently defended using in-universe explanations.
Personally I'm very intrigued by the "grey" direction Anno chose for Shinji, with this premise 3.0+1.0 can go in infinite directions to resolve the story.

Shinji Ikari Expy wrote:That Marvel comics movie scene where the woman blames Tony Starks for her son's death — in real life, this would happen to Shinji about a million times. I mean, remember when Anno became depressed about all the hate mail he got after EoTV? Multiply that by about 10,000. The families of people who have been killed violently or through recklessness (as they perceive it) aren't very understanding of the plight of the person they deem responsible, and I don't blame them.


Is there any reason to believe that "the mass" (assuming it exists) even know about Shinji? Evas, Angels, NERV and the pilots are kept secret before the time skip. Shinji's can easily be a total no one for anyone outside of Gendo, Fuyutsuki and the Wunder's staff.
Last edited by Joseki on Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:16 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Nothing Anno does could draw as much emotion out of me out of me as this.

SPOILER: Show
Image

pwhodges wrote:I used the last frame of that as my avi for a while.

The comic is available with pop-up translations.

Just read the comic with the translation. It's pretty depressing to say the least. I wonder if something like this could happen in 3.0+1.0, or if he attempts suicide and one of wunder crew stepped in to stop him, and maybe try some counseling with him latter.

Sakura seemed torn up about it, though I'm not sure how Misato and Asuka would have reacted, since they didn't make an appearance (Asuka appeared in the first panel, but that was it).

We'll see how the final film will turn out, to see wether or not Shinji will be able to earn their trust again, and maybe rekindle the friendship he lost.
"Who dares to summon the master of masters, the deliverer of darkness, the Shogun of sorrow, Aku!?"-Aku

"KONO DIO DA!"-Dio

Lennik
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Re: If Shinji commits suicide...

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Postby Lennik » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:07 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Considering Wunder usually flights at high speed, it would be hard to prepare net on such a short notice. Besides, net is a waste of time and resources that could be used for saving the world. They're not obligated to pamper the brat.


Saving someone from suicide is not "pampering," and no character we're supposed to sympathize with would say it is.

Jesus, people.


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