Shikinami or Soryu relationship with Shinji ?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Shikinami or Soryu relationship with Shinji ?

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:12 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:If order to imagine an NTE series where Asuka gets more character development, we would have to imagine not only entirely different movies, but an entirely different Asuka all together.
Yeah, so explain why this entirely different movie with well developed characters wouldn't be better?
So why exactly NTE doesn't have an ensemble cast like NGE did.

What? NTE spreads itself thin with a greater ensemble than NGE had despite vastly less screen time. NGE understood quality over quanity, NTE did not.

Rather, it is 100% Shinji's story. Soryu's development in NGE isn't conducive for focusing the story more towards Shinji
Uh, what? Shinji's relationship with Asuka was one of the core elements of his characterization. A well developed relationship between well developed characters serves to offer both characters characterization they would otherwise not receive. NTE Shinji doesn't have such a relationship which is part ofwhy he ends up as a cardboard cutout of his NGE incarnation.
and a more elaborate Shikinami would make the film suffer the same pitfalls Peter Jackson's King Kong fell into when they also developed the characters that weren't Ann Darrow or Jack Driscoll.
Not sure why you're citing King Kong here. I didn't watch Peter Jackson's King Kong and I shouldn't have to have in order to understand your argument.
NTE would become too unfocused of a narrative if it were to feature a distractingly complex Shikinami, especially for movies that average only 102.67 minutes to date.

Indeed, the story about Shinji shouldn't offer well developed foils that further Shinji's characterization. Let's instead focus on important narrative points such as Mari being a junkie or Eva's going super saiyan.

A trilogy is plenty of time to have two well developed characters. If you can't keep a coherent story together because your characters are well developed, then there's something wrong with your story.
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Re: Shikinami or Soryu relationship with Shinji ?

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Postby Lennik » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:39 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:NGE understood quality over quanity, NTE did not.


NGE had a quantity of 26 episodes to work with. I think that's worth pointing out.

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Re: Shikinami or Soryu relationship with Shinji ?

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Postby Guy Nacks » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:56 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Peter Jackson's King Kong fell into when they also developed the characters that weren't Ann Darrow or Jack Driscoll.


Petey Jack's KingDa-Ka was one film; NTE is a tetrology. Much more room for examining different characters within the narrative.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote: Like PJ's King Kong, NTE would become too unfocused of a narrative if it were to feature a distractingly complex Shikinami, especially for movies that average only 102.67 minutes to date.


This may be the most bullshit excuse for underdeveloped characterization I've ever heard in my life. Developed secondary characters enrich the overall work, even if the focus is on Shinji. That was what the TV series was able to accomplish. And the time limit is also a bullshit excuse. Anno squandered a ton of 3.0's already short running time on extended battle sequences and Wunder shit in the first half. When I first watched the film, I remember being astounded when the film reached the halfway point eyecatch because it felt like very little had happened in that first 45 minutes and I knew even LESS about any of the characters in this series whose names weren't Shinji Ikari.
Last edited by Guy Nacks on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shikinami or Soryu relationship with Shinji ?

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:53 am

View Original PostLennik wrote:NGE had a quantity of 26 episodes to work with. I think that's worth pointing out.

My response is here:
[Indeed, the story about Shinji shouldn't offer well developed foils that further Shinji's characterization. Let's instead focus on important narrative points such as Mari being a junkie or Eva's going super saiyan.
[/quote] and i'll rob this bit from guy nacks:
Anno squandered a ton of 3.0's already short running time on extended battle sequences and Wunder shit in the first half.


When you have to cut for time, you have to prioritize what's important: having a high quantity of forgettable secondary characters is not.
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Re: Shikinami or Soryu relationship with Shinji ?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:47 am

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:This may be the most bullshit excuse for underdeveloped characterization I've ever heard in my life.

Claiming an underdeveloped character suggests that there was an fully developed to begin with. It's like complaining that Maya Ibuki was underdeveloped in NGE. That assumes that she would have taken on a role in NGE's main cast that didn't belong to her. The same thing is true for Asuka in NTE. To say that she's underdeveloped assumes that she would have taken on a role as a main character that didn't belong to her.

Actually think critically about it for a minute:

    How does Shikinami's supposed lack of character development hurt Shinji's story throughout NTE?

    How does Shikinami's supposed lack of character development hurt the main plot of NTE?

    How does Shikinami's supposed lack of character development hinder the story from relaying the themes and messages that it seems to be trying to convey to its audience?

Likewise, we can reverse the intent of these questions to see just why the characters were placed into the film to begin with:

    What does Shikinami's presence contribute to NTE's narrative as a whole?

    How does Shikinami's relationship with the main cast effect the story?

    How does Shikinami's presence highlight the themes and messages that the film seems to be trying to convey to its audience?

Without such critical analysis, we might end up just being butt-hurt over the fact that our favorite waifus aren't in the movie as much as we'd like them to be, and that would look just plain silly and obsessive.

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Re: Shikinami or Soryu relationship with Shinji ?

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Postby Joseki » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:47 pm

Asuka-Shinji is important focus for EoE, and it's also entirely useless for the original TV ending. Does the focus on "character relationships and plot" makes EoE better then EoTV? Highly debatable.

Anno wrote pretty clear that "Eva is a story of a main character..." before the movies even entered production, he didn't wrote "[...] of a main character and some other secondary characters".

It's true that the secondary characters aren't the focus and that Asuka (at the moment, we don't know what is in 3.0+1.0) is not so important as she was in NGE, but it's also true that Rei and Kaworu have a much more important role in the movies than they ever had in NGE, so it's a fair trade off in terms of character development.

Would something that didn't exist (= a different movie) be better? Yes, and it's true for everything that mankind has ever produced.

Ultimately the "Asuka is shallow so the movies suck" argument to me sounds a lot like "the Mona Lisa isn't defined as much as others Leonardo's works so it sucks". Asuka is just one ingredient in the mix, not the only ingredient and the story is not well or poor written just because of her.
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Re: Shikinami or Soryu relationship with Shinji ?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:55 pm

I’m sure those who thought that Rei got the shaft as far as character development goes between episodes 6 and 23 of NGE felt that her further development in NTE was a breath of fresh air. In that context, it’s easy to see where actual narrative criticisms of Eva as a whole end and where obsessive fanboyish waifuism over Eva Pilots begins.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:48 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I’m sure those who thought that Rei got the shaft as far as character development goes between episodes 6 and 23 of NGE felt that her further development in NTE was a breath of fresh air. In that context,

Except that Rei was also a cardboard cutout of her Nge self who, like Asuka did not further Shini's characterization the way she did when she was given greater focus in NGE.
it’s easy to see where actual narrative criticisms of Eva as a whole end and where obsessive fanboyish waifuism over Eva Pilots begins.


When you're seeing a critique regarding character development as obsessive fanboyish waifuism, you might need glasses.
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Re: Shikinami or Soryu relationship with Shinji ?

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Postby Joseki » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:00 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Except that Rei was also a cardboard cutout of her Nge self who, like Asuka did not further Shini's characterization the way she did when she was given greater focus in NGE.


Are you saying that the Rei that pushed Shinji into triggering N3I and then into leaving Wille, and that also was the only thing that kept Shinji sane for most of 3.0, wasn't an important factor for Shinji's development?
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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:01 am

View Original PostJoseki wrote:Asuka-Shinji is important focus for EoE, and it's also entirely useless for the original TV ending. Does the focus on "character relationships and plot" makes EoE better then EoTV? Highly debatable.
Asuka's relationship with Shinji was a key part of Shinji's self-examination in the last episode. What are you talking about?
Anno wrote pretty clear that "Eva is a story of a main character..." before the movies even entered production, he didn't wrote "[...] of a main character and some other secondary characters".
And secondary characters area means to develop said main character, aka NGE Asuka, NGE Rei, NGE Kaji, NGE Toji... ect. NTE lacks this and hence it's version of Shinji is underdeveloped.
but it's also true that Rei and Kaworu have a much more important role in the movies than they ever had in NGE{/quote] That's called being a plot device, not a developed character.
Ur right. Twilight isn't a bad movie. It could be a better movie, but that would be a different movie. Why don't you address the critique rather than the role of critque in film? The former is relevant to the discussion at hand, the second is a non-sequitur.

It sounds to me you made up an argument which hasn't been made. The argument isn't, "one badly developed character makes nte bad", it's "one badly developed character is part of why nte is bad." The reason NTE is bad is because all the major characters are undeveloped.

You might find it helpful to quote the arguments you're addressing. That way you can make sure you're addressing an argument the person you're replying to made rather than one you've made.
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Re: Shikinami or Soryu relationship with Shinji ?

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:05 am

View Original PostJoseki wrote:Are you saying that the Rei that pushed Shinji into triggering N3I and then into leaving Wille, and that also was the only thing that kept Shinji sane for most of 3.0, wasn't an important factor for Shinji's development?

Those are events. That's sufficient to be a plot device. We're discusiing characterization.

Furthermore, the argument made was not simply that she furthered Shinji's development, but that she did so anywhere near the extent she did in nge. The original post i responded to compared NTE Rei to NGE Rei. You need to make a comparison here to address my response.
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Re: Shikinami or Soryu relationship with Shinji ?

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Postby Joseki » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:51 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Those are events. That's sufficient to be a plot device. We're discusiing characterization.

Furthermore, the argument made was not simply that she furthered Shinji's development, but that she did so anywhere near the extent she did in nge. The original post i responded to compared NTE Rei to NGE Rei. You need to make a comparison here to address my response.
Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:Asuka's relationship with Shinji was a key part of Shinji's self-examination in the last episode. What are you talking about?
And secondary characters area means to develop said main character, aka NGE Asuka, NGE Rei, NGE Kaji, NGE Toji... ect. NTE lacks this and hence it's version of Shinji is underdeveloped.


At the beginning of the XX century the European society was shocked by a series of events, both social perception and historical events, and that influenced art too. Here in Italy one author, Luigi Pirandello, wrote a series of books and dramas that focused just on one main character and its point of view.
The reader is the main character and lives the main character's failures, the harshness life trow at him. One of those novels is "The Late Mattia Pascal", about a mr. nobody that one day is believed death by everyone, and its structure is peculiar: not a single secondary character has any kind of development in any way possible, and Mattia, the main character, grows simply because things keep happening to him.
On the polar opposite of the spectrum there is Cowboy Bebop. In 20+ episodes Spike is constantly around developing secondary characters like Faye. They talk and they influence each other, but in the last episode the viewer learns that Spike never made a step further in the entire series, he continued to live in his dream exactly like he did in episode 1.
Pirandello is still today one of the most important authors of the '900s and later won a Noble prize in literature, Cowboy Bebop is one of the most beloved and iconic anime ever made.

Character development is just one way of writing a good story, it's not the only way, and this is true both for the main character and the secondary characters.



That being said, episode 26 is only about Shinji, Asuka is there as a mirror for Shinji, she's not there like she is during Instrumentality in EoE, it's an entirely different thing.

Regarding Rei and Shinji in 2.0 I'll simply presume we watched an entirely different movie, I don't think that discussion will go anywhere.
Last edited by Joseki on Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shikinami or Soryu relationship with Shinji ?

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:14 am

So much of the same old, same old... "NTE isn't sufficiently like NGE, so it's a failure". Dressed up in some degree of critical language, of course, but that's the message that overwhelmingly comes across.

Yes, NTE is different from NGE in many ways; the time allotted, the structure (films vs episodes), the characters, the story (yes, it's even a different story!). But, you know, different is not the same as worse. You are free to like one of these stories more than the other, to prefer its presentation, its story and characters even - but few of these opinions are as objective as some people seem to be trying to make them appear. Remember, if someone else has a different preference to you, it doesn't matter; it can't take away anything from your own preference and enjoyment.
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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:44 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:Character development is just one way of writing a good story, it's not the only way, and this is true both for the main character and the secondary characters.

The question still remains:
What exactly did making Asuka a shallow version of her earlier incarnation do for the story?
What did taking away character allow NTE to do that allowed it to be a better story?

That being said, episode 26 is only about Shinji, Asuka is there as a mirror for Shinji,
Yes, Asuka is used as a mirror to further Shinji's characterization so she's obviously not useless to his characterization.
she's not there like she is during Instrumentality in EoE, it's an entirely different thing
That does not matter. A character doesn't have to be physically present in order to be used to explore another character.
Regarding Rei and Shinji in 2.0 I'll simply presume we watched an entirely different movie, I don't think that discussion will go anywhere.

Or you could just explain how specifically nge Rei was lacking in character development compared to NTE Rei. Or how specifically NTE Rei furthered Shinji's characterization in a way NGE Rei did not.
View Original Postpwhodges wrote:So much of the same old, same old... "NTE isn't sufficiently like NGE, so it's a failure".

Nope, not a single poster on this thread has argued that.
Here's the argument:
NTE is bad is because all the major characters are undeveloped.


"You don't like nte coz it's different!" is simply a strawman.
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Postby Joseki » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:35 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Or you could just explain how specifically nge Rei was lacking in character development compared to NTE Rei. Or how specifically NTE Rei furthered Shinji's characterization in a way NGE Rei did not.


Regarding NGE Rei I'll use Anno's words:

In the midst of making Eva, I suddenly realized that I had forgotten her. Her very existence. For example, in episode seven, I remembered and added one shot with Rei. I had no attachment to her at all. I think that was okay, because in episode eight, she didn't appear. Not even in a single shot.

Episode 6 was too early.

At the end Rei says "I don't know what to do," and Shinji says, "I think you should smile," and Rei smiles. ... Afterwards, when I thought about it, I cursed. In short, if she and Shinji completely "communicated" there, then isn't she over with? At that moment, Rei, for me, was finished.

When she smiled, she was already finished, this character.


NTE Rei making a further step forward set up Asuka's accident with Bardiel and Shinji's subsequent realization that he can't avoid difficult situations by doing nothing.
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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:26 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:NTE Rei making a further step forward set up Asuka's accident with Bardiel and Shinji's subsequent realization that he can't avoid difficult situations by doing nothing.

NGE had same thing with Rei and Shinji on the train...
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Postby Joseki » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:52 am

The Rei in Shinji's mind talked to Shinji, not Rei II.
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Postby kuribo-04 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:24 am

Asuka is a pretty good character in Rebuild imo, I like her story in 2.0, even though it could have been fleshed out more.
Her role in 3.0 is like a preview to what she'll be in the last film, people underestimate how much potential there is for her in one movie, especially if we go into mind trippy stuff (including going back to 2.0 stuff and tying everything together).
She is for now not as deep as she was in NGE, obviously, but Rebuild is also things that NGE wasn't, it's the entire idea.
And let's not pretend we didn't know these characters from before. I understand the point that Asuka could have a different backstory here, and that since this is a new story it has to do it's own character work. But we do know the gist of who these people are, and honestly I wouldn't mind Rebuild referencing NGE more and giving visual clues to tell us things that might be similar (what's the point of pretending NGE doesn't exist?)
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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:19 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:The Rei in Shinji's mind talked to Shinji, not Rei II.

Okay, but that's still Rei being used to explore Shinji as a character.
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Postby TheChosenJuan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:19 am

I believe they both have some affection for him. They just showed it more direct in the show and probably killed it off in the second rebuild movie. Yet there is some speculation of a hidden crush by Mari, but she is just one of the lore McGuffins so far.
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