So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:13 pm

In rebuild, Asuka didn't really get to know Shinji real well until, what? A month or so? And after the Bardiel incident, and after the Third Impact went off, Shinji was basically left out of the picture. And out of Asuka's life for the past fourteen years. So I guess to her, he's nothing more than a complete stranger who was responsible for the calamity that befell the entire world. So probably, the issue (and grudge) she has against him isn't too personal, unless she still holds him responsible for what happened to her.

And like the rest of humanity(or the just the crew of the Wunder), she treated him with scorn, like some hated prisoner who is the bane of everyone's existence. Though unlike her NGE counterpart, she doesn't seem to know him as intimately as Misato does. Because let's face it, Soryu treated Shinji badly because of her own issues that she has against him( "You won't hold me!" "You're such a wimp and a loser!" "I hate you!" Ect.), Shikinami doesn't seem to treat him like that, except for regarding him as a brat.

So I guess if she really doesn't hate him on a personal level, then she must have had some shared resentment as the others do.
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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby Settie » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:44 am

Asuka being angry with Shinji for the state of the world doesn't make a lot of sense since there's plenty of evidence that a lot more happened after he got absorbed into unit-1 (11th and 12th angels, 12th angel-possessed mark-6 making contact with Lillith and proper 3rd impact), and while the Bardiel incident is possible, surely she'd find out what happened from those that were there. Whatever It is has to be something significant enough to survive 14 years.

I think the crux of this whole thing is something the NTE is pretty terrible at with 2.0 being the most egregious one, that being the passage of time. There are some concrete things like operation Yashima and the 14 year gap between 2.0 and 3.0, but beyond that there's very little that explicitly states how much time has passed. Without that it's hard to tell how Asukas bond with Shinji could've survived the 14 years between 2.0 and 3.0, that's why i think her behavior in 3.0 comes off a bit odd cause 14 years is a long time for anyone to hold a grudge, especially if you didn't know them long.

I do have a theory about how much time passed in a portion of 2.0, it's kind of silly since it involves Kajis melons but it's one of those things that you notice once you think about it in real world terms.

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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:34 am

View Original PostSettie wrote: I do have a theory about how much time passed in a portion of 2.0, it's kind of silly since it involves Kajis melons but it's one of those things that you notice once you think about it in real world terms.


Sounds interesting, do tell :)
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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby Joseki » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:08 am

I think Asuka was personally offended by something Shinji did in 2.0 and then again in 3.0 more than the apocalypse he somehow triggered.

Shikinami was introduced as a total loner, her only bond we know of is with Misato and even that wasn't particularly meaningful considering they didn't met for a very long time prior to her arrival in Japan. In her first scene alone she's telling herself how special she is and how she has to live only counting on herself, and that's what she does in her daily life: when she isn't piloting the Eva she's either playing videogames or using her doll.
There are various scenes that show this pretty well: in the "Yamashita montage" we are shown what presumably is her first day of school in Japan. Shinji is with Kensuke and Toji, various groups of kids are chatting and Asuka is playing her videogame when she is approached by two classmates that she immediately kicks in the face without even looking.
Her behavior obviously works, later in the movie she's eating her lunch and she's completely alone. Her entire row of desks is empty, and both on her left and right there is a group of kids chatting. She successfully excluded herself from any kind of social interaction with the rest of the class.

There's only one person that somehow was able to really develop a bond with Asuka and it's Shinji. The rest of the school scenes demonstrate it perfectly: Shinji is the only source of active interactions she has in class. She either goes to his desk to ask about her lunch or she looks at him when he moves to chat with Rei. Even when Hikari asks her to have lunch together her attention is on Shinji and Rei chatting.

Shinji and Asuka's relationship in 2.0 is a bit peculiar. She knows he's the son of Gendo beforehand and she immediatly puts herself on a higher level then him when they first met, both physically making Shinji fall and metaphorically telling him that he pilots only because he's Gendo's son. When she gets home she is almost usurping his position invading his room with her stuff and telling him that he may no longer be needed in the future.
At the same time they are forced to live together and the more she's with him the more she starts to discover things that she likes about Shinji. Differently to Toji he's not anchored to an antiquated image of manhood that she doesn't like, he makes excellent food and he shows a sensible side asking Rei why she's not eating and having care of her.
It's probably Shinji's sensible side that pushes her to seek comfort by sleeping by his side after her perceived failure in the falling angel mission instead of playing videogames or her doll, and that is the moment when she truly accepts him as someone on her level, someone that matters in her life.
She genuinely wanted to know what pushes Shinji to pilot, she asked him to keep calling her "Asuka" like he did in the Eva and in exchange she'll call him "baka-Shinji", she wants him to prepare her lunch and she's jealous of him cooking for Rei too. She even decides to prepare something to eat that he may enjoy and she she's curious to know what kind of relationship he has with Rei.
It doesn't even matter if it's a form of possessive friendship or something more than friendship, the bond she has with him is meaningful and that's the important thing.

Then the elevator scene and Bardiel happens and she become a freak, a "specimen" to study, NERV is chaos and Shinji is gone too because he played hero to save Rei. He's still in Unit 01 somewhere, but he won't come back.

Flash forward 14 years and Asuka calls Shinji "gaki" twice in response to something Shinji did. First when he escaped with Rei, second when he was brainwashed into beliving he could fix everything magically.

In my opinion Asuka's anger comes from a perceived betrayal from Shinji's part. She endured her angelic eye, her constant loneliness, the apocalypse for 14 years. Shinji on the other hand was spending his time with Rei in Unit 01, just to reappear and escape again with Rei and Kaworu.
It's even more plausible when you think about the allegoric implications that such scenario creates in 3.0: Shinji is torned between two opposites, Rei and Kaworu represents escapisms, Asuka and Misato are reality.
The final showdown in the movie is a battle between Shinji, Rei and Kaworu against Asuka, Mari and Misato. Shinji is in the middle of a battle between escapism and facing reality. What the result of the battle tells us is that Shinji is forced to face reality, he can't continue to avoid the real world, he's phisically pushed by Asuka (= reality) over a hill, he's going to look over the small place he lived for most of 3.0, he's going to learn how things really are.



Asuka being mad at Shinji only because of how the world turned out doesn't make sense to me: if she didn't develop a bond with Shinji her life prior and after N3I would have been roughly the same. She just waited the order to pilot the Eva, and if she failed she is dead. Her small world wouldn't have changed much. She didn't care about anyone other than herself, she didn't have a real life.
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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby Blockio » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:19 am

Seeing how Unit 01 (which, little reminder, was the most badly damaged after Sahaquiel) was fully repaired and operational when facing Bardiel, I would say that the time that passed in 2.0 was actually quite significant, but the movie only showed the "relevant" parts (because screentime and everything)
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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby anonymaus » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:27 pm

I wonder if the Shinji we see in 3.0 is the same as the one in 2.0. A switch of some kind may have gone down. It's possible that the 2.0 Shinji did some things inbetween 2.0 and 3.0 that justify everyone's anger, and the Shinji we see in 3.0 unjustly took the heat for that other Shinji's actions.
He seems... really confused. More than he should be. I haven't watched 3.0 much, but I don't even remember him referring to any of the unique events of 2.0 or 1.0 in a way that could identify him as having been from that timeline.
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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby Blockio » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:48 pm

anonymaus wrote:I wonder if the Shinji we see in 3.0 is the same as the one in 2.0. A switch of some kind may have gone down. It's possible that the 2.0 Shinji did some things inbetween 2.0 and 3.0 that justify everyone's anger, and the Shinji we see in 3.0 unjustly took the heat for that other Shinji's actions.
He seems... really confused. More than he should be. I haven't watched 3.0 much, but I don't even remember him referring to any of the unique events of 2.0 or 1.0 in a way that could identify him as having been from that timeline.

He did explicitly talk about saving Rei(2) multiple times, and strongly hinted at the Bardiel incident when seeing Asuka again, so Id say that it is in fact the same Shinji. Especially since its not exactly easy to get out of the tesseract under his own power.


On a similar note:
Joseki wrote:[...]
Flash forward 14 years and Asuka calls Shinji "gaki" twice in response to something Shinji did. First when he escaped with Rei, second when he was brainwashed into beliving he could fix everything magically.

In my opinion Asuka's anger comes from a perceived betrayal from Shinji's part. She endured her angelic eye, her constant loneliness, the apocalypse for 14 years. Shinji on the other hand was spending his time with Rei in Unit 01, just to reappear and escape again with Rei and Kaworu.
It's even more plausible when you think about the allegoric implications that such scenario creates in 3.0: Shinji is torned between two opposites, Rei and Kaworu represents escapisms, Asuka and Misato are reality.
The final showdown in the movie is a battle between Shinji, Rei and Kaworu against Asuka, Mari and Misato. Shinji is in the middle of a battle between escapism and facing reality. What the result of the battle tells us is that Shinji is forced to face reality, he can't continue to avoid the real world, he's phisically pushed by Asuka (= reality) over a hill, he's going to look over the small place he lived for most of 3.0, he's going to learn how things really are.


I may be splitting hairs here, but I dont think Shinji is the one to be held responsible here, at least not the first time: The first person who actually explains to him what happened, is the first angel himself (yes, in the shape of Kaworu, but an angel nonetheless). Given the situation he was in, escaping on Mark.09 is the only logical thing to do: His last memory is saving Rei from Zeruel (and Misato cheering to him, if he noticed it, which I kinda doubt), so if he suddenly wakes up in this unknown enviroment where everyone is afraid of or mad at him, only to have Rei in what looks to be Unit 00 at first glance appear and offer to get him out of there, naturally he would accept. (Especially since up to this point noone had bothered to explain that they arent actually NERV)

I hope Im not straying too far offtopic :bigeyes:
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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:53 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Especially since its not exactly easy to get out of the tesseract under his own power.

And yet while still in it Unit-01 responded, it seemed, to Asuka's calling out to Shinji - which at that point didn't seem like the action of someone who was mad at him. We may not yet understand the full implications of the call and the response - but they are there in the film, and cannot be ignored.
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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby Joseki » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:49 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I may be splitting hairs here, but I dont think Shinji is the one to be held responsible here, at least not the first time: The first person who actually explains to him what happened, is the first angel himself (yes, in the shape of Kaworu, but an angel nonetheless). Given the situation he was in, escaping on Mark.09 is the only logical thing to do: His last memory is saving Rei from Zeruel (and Misato cheering to him, if he noticed it, which I kinda doubt), so if he suddenly wakes up in this unknown enviroment where everyone is afraid of or mad at him, only to have Rei in what looks to be Unit 00 at first glance appear and offer to get him out of there, naturally he would accept. (Especially since up to this point noone had bothered to explain that they arent actually NERV)

I hope Im not straying too far offtopic :bigeyes:


I don't think Shinji is entirely at fault when he made the choises he made in both occasions (I don't think there's a character that is entirely at fault for something in the whole trilogy so far, except obviously Gendo), in fact Anno crafted the movie in a way that makes Shinji's choises extremely relatable.
But at the same time Shinji never actually rationally thought about was he was doing in both occasion. Rei offered him a way out, but to where and to do what? Kaworu gave him a way to immediatly fix the world, but he never asked how it would have worked.
More than the choises that Shinji's made it's how he approached them that was wrong in my opinion, he never questioned the options he was given.
In the real world there are occasions when you don't know if a choice is right or wrong, that's why choosing is hard, but there is a right and a wrong way to make a choice.

The Bardiel incident teached Shinji that he can't be passive to escape a difficult situation, maybe one of the things that Shinji will have learn in the final movie is how to make a proper choice.
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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby Settie » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:17 pm

^ A lot of Shinjis action boil down to bad choices with good intentions.

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:Sounds interesting, do tell :)


It's fairly simple, It was stated at the beginning of the movie that Kaji had been away for 2 years without making contact, so it'd be hard for him to have someone grow the watermelons in secret for him. I garden and have grown watermelons in the past and from the looks of it, Kajis are the small icebox types which typically take 80-90 days (+/- several days depending on growing conditions) to get fulls sized. That to me means that between Kajis arrival and the melon talk he has with Shinji, it would be roughly 3 months.

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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:25 pm

Settie wrote:A lot of Shinjis action boil down to bad choices with good intentions.

That's why the road to hell is paved with them.
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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby mys_721tx » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:52 am

Joseki wrote:It's probably Shinji's sensible side that pushes her to seek comfort by sleeping by his side after her perceived failure in the falling angel mission instead of playing videogames or her doll, and that is the moment when she truly accepts him as someone on her level, someone that matters in her life.
She genuinely wanted to know what pushes Shinji to pilot, she asked him to keep calling her "Asuka" like he did in the Eva and in exchange she'll call him "baka-Shinji", she wants him to prepare her lunch and she's jealous of him cooking for Rei too. She even decides to prepare something to eat that he may enjoy and she she's curious to know what kind of relationship he has with Rei.


Joseki wrote:The Bardiel incident teached Shinji that he can't be passive to escape a difficult situation, maybe one of the things that Shinji will have learn in the final movie is how to make a proper choice.


Speaking of jealousy, Shinji refused to get his hands dirty when facing Bardiel. Had he chosen to fight before the dummy system engaged, the outcome probably would be different. And when it comes to Rei, he nearly ended the world to save her. I don't think this will settle well with Asuka.

Settie wrote:It's fairly simple, It was stated at the beginning of the movie that Kaji had been away for 2 years without making contact, so it'd be hard for him to have someone grow the watermelons in secret for him. I garden and have grown watermelons in the past and from the looks of it, Kajis are the small icebox types which typically take 80-90 days (+/- several days depending on growing conditions) to get fulls sized. That to me means that between Kajis arrival and the melon talk he has with Shinji, it would be roughly 3 months.


Three months is almost as long as the time Asuka spent in Japan in the original series. In NGE, the third impact is less than four months away from Asuka and Shinji defeating Israfel. However, with the maybe exception of 1.11, RoE movies probably have minor time skips of their own.

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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby The Cruel » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:23 am

"Just mad"? I doubt that from what we've seen from her in Q, that she would forgive Shinji. Seeing it come to a end in 3.0+1.0 is all I want.
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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:51 am

mys_721tx wrote:Speaking of jealousy, Shinji refused to get his hands dirty when facing Bardiel. Had he chosen to fight before the dummy system engaged, the outcome probably would be different. And when it comes to Rei, he nearly ended the world to save her. I don't think this will settle well with Asuka.

How would it be different? That Asuka wouldn't sustain the injury that she did in the film? Or that she wouldn't hold a grudge as did and held him responsible for what happened to her?
The Cruel wrote:"Just mad"? I doubt that from what we've seen from her in Q, that she would forgive Shinji. Seeing it come to a end in 3.0+1.0 is all I want.

How would she be able to forgive him? I don't see that happening anytime soon, based on what we know about her personality, especially in NGE and EOE.
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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby Blockio » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:14 pm

C.T.1290 wrote:


Seeing how she reacted to Mari teasing her about seeing Shinji, I dont think she is even capable of hating him (at least not in the same scale NGE/EoE Asuka did at the end)
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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby Joseki » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:13 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:How would it be different? That Asuka wouldn't sustain the injury that she did in the film? Or that she wouldn't hold a grudge as did and held him responsible for what happened to her?

How would she be able to forgive him? I don't see that happening anytime soon, based on what we know about her personality, especially in NGE and EOE.


It's impossible to know if Asuka would have had a better or worse fate if Shinji decided to do something, but Shinji didn't move for her and he did move for Rei.
It's a simple case of "why her and not me?".

NGE and EoE Asuka are different characters.
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Re: So was Asuka just mad at Shinji in Q?

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:44 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:but Shinji didn't move for her and he did move for Rei.
It's a simple case of "why her and not me?".

Which could tie in with Mari's "Why didn't you rescue the Princess?"
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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:31 pm

Joseki wrote:It's a simple case of "why her and not me?".

pwhodges wrote:Which could tie in with Mari's "Why didn't you rescue the Princess?"

I think it may be obvious why Shinji didn't save Asuka but chose to save Rei instead. Or why anyone wouldn't rather save her.
NGE and EoE Asuka are different characters.

And how is NGE Asuka different from EoE Asuka? Is because of how she was able to progress in the film more than than she did in the series?

As for rebuild, aside from the different surname and minor tweaks in her personality, I don't see how she's any different from her NGE self.
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Postby pwhodges » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:49 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I think it may be obvious why Shinji didn't save Asuka but chose to save Rei instead. Or why anyone wouldn't rather save her.

Only if you have an irrational hatred of her, which Shinji doesn't. Remember, Shinji didn't choose not to save her - he chose not to hurt her (or not to risk hurting her), which are totally different motivations but unfortunately overlapped in practice.
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Postby Joseki » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:11 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Which could tie in with Mari's "Why didn't you rescue the Princess?"


I'm sure that Mari was actually talking about the future, "why don't you save the princess at least?" or something similar, but it could be connected to Bardiel anyway.

"Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss."
I can imagine Mari saying something like that, she loves to tease them.

C.T.1290 wrote:I think it may be obvious why Shinji didn't save Asuka but chose to save Rei instead. Or why anyone wouldn't rather save her.

And how is NGE Asuka different from EoE Asuka? Is because of how she was able to progress in the film more than than she did in the series?

As for rebuild, aside from the different surname and minor tweaks in her personality, I don't see how she's any different from her NGE self.


You may not like Asuka, but the characters care for her. Shinji did nothing against Bardiel because he was afraid of hurting her, and he was fine with dying if it meant not harming her.



What I meant is that Shikinami is different from Soryu so you can't take elements from NGE or EoE and apply them to 3.0.
Shikinami in 2.0 is more similar to Shinji than she is to Soryu. Both are extremely lonely people, both are afraid of human contact and both tends to run away when things get uncomfortable.
The movie goes as far as repeating twice the same scene with both characters: in the shower with Pen-Pen, in Misato's car looking outside the window.
「希望は残っているよ。どんな時にもね」

29/07/2017


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