Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only.

Moderator: Board Staff

CaesarMagnus
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 32
Joined: Nov 18, 2017
Location: Kingdom of Spain
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby CaesarMagnus » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:10 am

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:And yet i still like and sympathize with him, why?


I hope it's not because you also paid a visit to a sedated friend in a hospital, haha.

To be honest, when I first watched the series (just the series), being 14 years old, I saw Shinji as a kind of alter ego I could relate to very easily with. Some years later, when I watched NGE being more mature, while there were some aspects of him I didn't really like, I still found him very relatable. But it was when I watched EoE that my opinion on him changed drastically. "Oh my, did he just do what I think he did??" was obviously my first reaction; but his constant complaints, his accusation to others, playing the role of a victim, made me see him on a completely negative note.

Thus, although I still see him as a relatable character, I don't think he's supposed to be likable at all. Not for me, at least.
Asuka's loyal Knight.

"We all have to find our own answers." - Hideaki Anno

jcmoorehead
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 636
Joined: Dec 30, 2005
Location: Edinburgh
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby jcmoorehead » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:14 am

View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote:However, Shinji, albeit being the main character and being very relatable, becomes an utterly despicable person, especially near the end. He’s not free of guilt, for he behaved selfishly almost all the time, asking others to help him, while he didn’t ever try to help others sincerely (perhaps because he just couldn’t possibly help others, being as broken as he was).


I think going as far as to call him despicable is a bit harsh. Shinji does act selfishly at times and towards the end of the series as he and the other characters go down a large downward spiral there are moments where he could/should have acted where he didn't which are frustrating but consider each and everything against him at that moment in time?

He is in life and death situations fighting giant monsters that seem to get stronger each time, he has his mind invaded by one of them and faces his own past, he has an estranged father who he longs for contact with who just shuns him, he sees his friends being hurt and he can do nothing and feels he is to blame for it, he sees other people fall apart in front of him and can do nothing.

He probably wanted to help, we see moments where he wants to but he probably doesn't know what the hell to actually do.

Take the kiss scene as an example: Asuka firstly waits for him to take the initiative; he doesn’t move; she proceeds with it, and Shinji is excited with it (oh, human contact! yay!), but doesn’t move; Asuka is waiting for something else and waits... waits... waits... until Shinji, almost suffocating, pushes her. He just cared about what he felt, but didn’t even think about Asuka’s emotions at that moment. He’s a teenager after all, curious about the opposite gender and craving affection; but he’s not willing to give anything, just taking it.


Asuka taunted him into that kiss by bringing up his dead mother. As much as I like Asuka and I know her real motives behind it how is Shinji supposed to know she wants something else? He can't read minds and Asuka doesn't exactly make it easy. Add to which she is also pinching his nose at the same time. He probably doesn't do anything because he is
A) Suffocating
B) Terrified that it's going to be some stupid prank on the part of Asuka
C) Unsure of what to do.

Another good example would be the Last Scene: Shinji, out of madness, brutally strangles Asuka (for whatever reason, be it to prove her existence, to kill her, or as a hallucination from Instrumentality), to which she unexpectedly responds with compassion. But what does he do next? Just curl up and cry like a baby. He's received kindness from the last person he could have expected to receive it, and all he can do it to cry? Even though she's made the effort to reach out to him, he, once more, thinks just of his own pain, and cries. Well, then there's no wonder why Asuka shows such coldness in the end (that and, obviously, the nauseating memory of him "showing her some affection" in the hospital). It reminded me of how she says "No" in the Kitchen scene, seeing Shinji as the pathetic being he is. She's no less pathetic to a certain extent, but at least she was strong enough not to shed a single tear, although she had reasons to.


I don't see why him crying is a bad thing? After all he has faced, all the near death situations and the destruction, after nearly seeing the world end and facing his own inner demons like he did. of course he is going to cry. I'd be a mess after all of that. There is no weakness in crying and there is no strength in not crying.

She even dared asking Shinji for a kiss, most likely out of frustration/teenager curiosity. She even visited him in the hospital. But, what did Shinji offered to her? Nothing at all. Asuka did her best to show some sort of "kindness" towards others (even to Rei, her Nemesis). But no one gave her anything.


Well people did try but she pushed them away quite quickly but you are right with this. Asuka did not get enough support and there are key moments that I feel would have really benefited her. I always look to her talking to Misato at the end of Magma Diver and Misato brushing her off and telling her to leave the past in the past as being one such moment.

The thing with Eva is none of these characters are innocent, each of them have made mistakes and could have done better. That's part of the beauty of it but to me the point is that they are each shown their mistakes and taught that they can move forward and overcome their demons.

CaesarMagnus
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 32
Joined: Nov 18, 2017
Location: Kingdom of Spain
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby CaesarMagnus » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:30 am

View Original Postjcmoorehead wrote:I think going as far as to call him despicable is a bit harsh. Shinji does act selfishly at times and towards the end of the series as he and the other characters go down a large downward spiral there are moments where he could/should have acted where he didn't which are frustrating but consider each and everything against him at that moment in time?

He is in life and death situations fighting giant monsters that seem to get stronger each time, he has his mind invaded by one of them and faces his own past, he has an estranged father who he longs for contact with who just shuns him, he sees his friends being hurt and he can do nothing and feels he is to blame for it, he sees other people fall apart in front of him and can do nothing.

He probably wanted to help, we see moments where he wants to but he probably doesn't know what the hell to actually do.


Well, it all depends on how much appreciation one has towards Shinji. As I said, I didn't dislike him until EoE, and actually found him very relatable. But, no matter how you see it, he crossed many red lines in the film. Out of madness, desperation, pressure, loneliness, yes. But he did, and has to be blamed for it. That I see it as "unforgivable" or "despicable" is just my opinion (admittedly biased, since most of those actions are against Asuka, my most admired character), but even using less harsh words, I'm sure you'll also admit his behaviour wasn't acceptable at all.

jcmoorehead wrote:Asuka taunted him into that kiss by bringing up his dead mother. As much as I like Asuka and I know her real motives behind it how is Shinji supposed to know she wants something else? He can't read minds and Asuka doesn't exactly make it easy. Add to which she is also pinching his nose at the same time. He probably doesn't do anything because he is
A) Suffocating
B) Terrified that it's going to be some stupid prank on the part of Asuka
C) Unsure of what to do.


Very true, I forgot to mention how cruel that was from Asuka. I edited my post adding that.

Of course he couldn't imagine that Asuka wanted something else. But knowing how similar they were, and if he was so much in love with with her (or so some say, although I don't believe he was; it was merely a teen's crush between two children afraid of intimacy), he should have done something. I'm not talking about a Hollywood-esque hug, but all he did was to stay there passively, like a statue, until he couldn't breath.

That's why I don't agree with those who claim their relationship was "deep" at all. The kiss scene proves us very well that they are just two broken children with erratic behaviours, who don't really know what to do or how to feel. You're right about that.


jcmoorehead wrote:I don't see why him crying is a bad thing? After all he has faced, all the near death situations and the destruction, after nearly seeing the world end and facing his own inner demons like he did. of course he is going to cry. I'd be a mess after all of that. There is no weakness in crying and there is no strength in not crying.


I don't blame him for crying after all he went through. But, seeing it from Asuka's POV, he was there, like with the kiss, completely passive. She took the initiative (with the kiss, and on the beach caressing him), and all she received was nothing: Shinji standing there like a statue; and Shinji curling up and crying. He didn't show her any kind of affection or support; it was all just "Me, me and only me". That would explain why Asuka feels so bitter, very rightfully.
Last edited by CaesarMagnus on Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Asuka's loyal Knight.

"We all have to find our own answers." - Hideaki Anno

Guy Nacks
Test Subject
Test Subject
User avatar
Posts: 2850
Joined: Nov 28, 2012
Gender: Male

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Guy Nacks » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:51 pm

They're both fucked-up kids because of horrible childhoods and neglect from parental figures. Shinji deals with it by retreating inside himself. Asuka deals with it by externally trying to overcompensate.

If you can bring yourself to feel sympathy for Asuka despite all of her flaws, then you are perfectly able to do the same for Shinji. They're two sides of the same coin.

Shipping in this series is pointless anyway.
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

C.T.1290
Sachiel
Age: 26
Posts: 236
Joined: Apr 22, 2017
Gender: Male

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby C.T.1290 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:59 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:CT, I thought we already dispelled this notion of yours that Asuka has never shown kindness, affection, or compassion for others or Shinji specifically.

Well, this sort of thing tends to happen when I see new posts about Asuka and present it in a new view point, and suddenly became convinced by it.

And Caesar Magnus seems to have a pretty thorough understanding of Asuka's character, almost on a Bageerah level. And like Yuko Mikimura, he's pretty convinced that Shinji shouldn't be anywhere near Asuka, as he would cause her misery even more, as they say. And based on some of things he said about her, he may be right. Their relationship is toxic, as is evidenced in the series and it doesn't ignore all the negative stuff that has happened between them, so it's hard to see it develop into something more positive.
CaesarMagnus wrote:Moreover, C.T. 1290, I think you see Asuka as a kind of “red devil”, but that’s not exactly what she is.

And what makes you so certain of that? Given to how she treats everyone in the series? If that's not who she really is, then what do you call a person full of spite and hatred towards people, especially those trying to reach out to her?
Due to her childhood trauma, she had to build a façade not to allow others see her vulnerable heart. She’s lonely, but doesn’t want to show it. She’s in need of help, but will never ask for it. She’s prideful and strong, but deep inside her soul, she’s just a crying little child.

Well, if she really is this good of a person with a soft side as you say, I would've liked to see that for myself as proof of that she can be a better person, especially during the series. But unfortunately, we never got to see that happen, and we don't really know how she can improve herself and how differently she would be able to treat others, and with more respect. So therefore, I'm still not entirely convinced that she can become a better person, or if she even has the capacity to become one.
jcmoorehead wrote:Well people did try but she pushed them away quite quickly .

And that's precisely the point, and one of the main problem I have with her. Caesar Magnus, when you brought up of how Asuka went back to being this cold person towards Shinji after the caress, that was the part that had me convinced that she wouldn't be able to have a more positive growth afterwards and for the many negative things that have had happened between them. You may be right that these two would never get along, at least not anytime soon. And if Asuka does want to make things right between her and Shinji, she's gonna have a lot to work on, and a lot to atone for. It may take her a long time to make an inkling of things right, or it may take the rest of life to make the other half of things right. And I guess the same could be said for Shinji.

And I'm not sure if you saw it yet, but I did made a lot of posts about Asuka which were later converged into one since it basically goes over the same thing and called "C.T.1290 vs Asuka: examining the good and the bad". If you're interested, feel free to check it out. :)
"Who dares summon the master of masters, the deliverer of darkness, the Shogun of sorrow, Aku!?"-Aku

"KONO DIO DA!"-Dio

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 71
Posts: 9444
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby pwhodges » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:21 pm

How many of you folk are the same now as you were when you were fourteen? Do you wish to have your present place in society judged according to people's knowledge of your fourteen-year-old self?

'Cos that's what you're all a-doin' to these poor children.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Sad, sad Shinji... (details); Past avatars.
Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

CaesarMagnus
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 32
Joined: Nov 18, 2017
Location: Kingdom of Spain
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby CaesarMagnus » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:33 pm

Guy Nacks wrote:If you can bring yourself to feel sympathy for Asuka despite all of her flaws, then you are perfectly able to do the same for Shinji. They're two sides of the same coin.


Theoretically, you’re very right, and I would agree with that affirmation… but I don’t think it’s fully correct. They’re indeed the same coin but they’re different coins at the same time. Opposites and alike. That's why appreciating one doesn’t make you appreciate the other so easily. It’s like with Misato, who was initially planned to be the main character along with Shinji. Does liking Shinji or Misato automatically make you like the other? Some people will say yes, while other will say no; there are many nuances that make them different, despite their similarities, just like with Asuka and Shinji.

As I said before, I felt very related to Shinji during the series, but in EoE I just lost that sincere empathy I had for him. Even if he’s 14 years old, I don’t think what he did was excusable at all, and even less likable. I’m glad he did have the decency to admit he was fucked up, but still, that isn’t an exculpation of his act.

Asuka consistently insulted him and showed terrible anger sometimes, but I don’t think she ever humiliated him. In episode 22’, we get to know better why Asuka was so obsessed in having Shinji being “manlier” (to help her, after Kaji seems to be lost), and thus, why she pushed him so violently (or even cruelly sometimes, like when she brings up his mother’s memory before the kiss) to man up. But, as far as I know, she never tried to (almost) rape him, nor she tried to kill him, for example. She’s to be blamed for many things, but at least, not for those; and those are precisely the ones that make Shinji so “despicable” to me.

For God’s sake, he even locked the room of the hospital, so it was not an “accident” out of pressure at all.

pwhodges wrote:How many of you folk are the same now as you were when you were fourteen? Do you wish to have your present place in society judged according to people's knowledge of your fourteen-year-old self?


Of course, nobody of us normal people (I hope we’re all somehow normal here) has had any important responsibility when being 14 years old, so our childhood wasn’t as turbulent as that of the EVA Children. Despite being teenagers, they had to save the world, and Shinji had the destiny of the whole humanity in his hands. Consequently, it’s understandable that we judge them according to what we see in the series when they’re 14 years old.

Maturation and growth are there, obviously, and it’s applicable to the Children as well. But they still have 4 years to become minimally “mature”, being 18. Or if you will, 7, to be 21, more rational. And having had a non-normal (I’m not saying abnormal, for it’s quite pejorative, although it could be used too) childhood and pubescence, it’s very likely that their maturation will be awkward as well. Who knows.

---

@C.T. 1290: Thank you very much. I’m sincerely flattered by your words, although I’m sure there are way more knowledgeable Asuka fans than me. And yes, I did read "C.T.1290 vs Asuka: examining the good and the bad", even before it wasn’t a unified thread, and found it extremely interesting, for you all discussed many of the aspects I’m most interested in. It was nice to see so many different points of view about Asuka, the nature of her relationships, etc. In fact, I took many of the interpretations exposed there for my archive of analysis (it was born as a little folder with Evangelion curiosities, and has now dozens of Word files; that’s the problem of being a historian: we like to collect opinions too much, haha).

C.T. 1290 wrote:And what makes you so certain of that? Given to how she treats everyone in the series? If that's not who she really is, then what do you call a person full of spite and hatred towards people, especially those trying to reach out to her?


The problem is that nobody in Evangeion can be judged at face value. Shinji, for instance, is shy and avoidant, but we’re surprised to see he’s not “spineless” all the time (Magma Diver, f.e.), or that he can be quite violent as well. Or, Misato, who appears to be a naughty woman whose only role is to offer fanservice to the audience, but we eventually see she has great validation issues, just like the rest of the cast.

Even the class-rep Hikari has some “shadows”: while she’s kind and polite with everyone, and treats Asuka very well, in the end she’s completely unable to help her. She just lets her play videogames at home, or sleep in her room, but it seems Hikari has her very own problems, even though she seems to be very “normal”.

With Asuka it happens the same: what we see is not what it really is. She’s an attractive prideful German redhead, always bragging about her abilities, and claiming she’s independent and infallible. That’s a façade, though; it works in during the Action Arc, since Evangelion uses many popular architypes (the kuudere, the tsundere, the Amuro-style mecha-pilot, etc.), but it all crumbles down and shows us what the show is really about. Neither Asuka is a tsundere, nor she’s as independent and strong as she says.

In episode 9 we get to see her shedding tears calling for her “Mama”, which contradicted that façade of strength she was trying to show. But, the kiss scene, her infructuous infatuation with Kaji, her progressive loss of confidence in her piloting skills and, most importantly, Arael’s mind-attack, prove us that she’s far from being what she claims to be.

She felt she needed to prove she was the best in order not to be replaced, like her mother did with a doll (and thus, her natural aversion towards Rei: Asuka is afraid of becoming a doll like that, willing to die for others). She also thought she was already an adult, which explains why she’s so obsessive in having Kaji give her attention, or why she wants to do things that would prove her "adulthood" (such as the kiss with Shinji, or going on a date with that friend of Hikari’s sister); but she utterly fails on that as well.

In the end, Asuka is not independent, but feels lonely and needs helps. She’s not confident of her abilities, but fears failure very much. She’s not mature, but she still wants her Mama’s affection. And well, what else? In short, she’s not an adult, but a crying little child who hides her tears behind a façade of pride and arrogance.

To a certain point, she needs to be violent and belligerent towards others not to allow them see her inner self and realize she’s weak and vulnerable. But, at the same time, by doing so, the others just don’t get close to her, so that she feels even more lonely and desperate.

I understand part of your aversion towards her, C.T., and I know it’s very difficult to comprehend who Asuka really is beneath her façade. But Anno did a good job telling us not to believe in what we were seeing, because there was a whole different reality in the shadows, that didn’t come up to the surface.

I really recommend you to check this analysis out, for it’s maybe one of the best that have been written about Asuka: EVA Analysis: Asuka Langley Sohryu. It has some mistakes, and uses some… curious expressions, such as “cis”, but if you ignore those little details, the article is simply superb. There was a discussion here regarding it, in which they commented on the aspects they found to be spot-on, or were mere overanalysis. Here it is: Long Analysis, HPD, Validation.

Hopefully, after reading that you might see Asuka on a more positive note. Or, if not, at least you’ll understand better the true motivations of her belligerent behaviour. You might not like her even after understanding her, but that's fine. It happens to me with Shinj: although I can understand him very much, I don't quite appreciate him and find many of his actions unforgivable (relatable but not likable, is how I see him).

Finally, as for growth, as I responded to pwhodges, while the Children are far from being normal, that doesn’t mean they have not chances to mature. Everyone grows up, and the NGE cast isn’t an exception. We are left with a very ambiguous “conclusion” (if that can even be called a conclusion whatsoever), an open-ending from which we can only imagine what will happen next. The final message is hope, although as you might read if you check out the thread of “I Need You”, Asuka’sBigBrother and I are having a quite passionate discussion about how hope and happiness are related (very passionate, indeed, haha), and while I’m certainly sceptical of a drastic change having transformed the Children into better people, I do believe they have a chance at maturing, now that Instrumentality has made them aware of their inner ghosts. They haven’t defeated them, but at least they now know them.

”Man is the only animal that trips twice on the same rock”, though...

P.S.: I realized there're very funny smilies here, haha. Even the "Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition", how great. Using Asuka's ones, C.T. 1290, you could see her like this:
False Arrogant and Lively Asuka :asukahearts: vs True Delicate Asuka :asuka_sad:
And the result is that, to hide the latter, she becomes: :asuka_geh:
Asuka's loyal Knight.

"We all have to find our own answers." - Hideaki Anno

Guy Nacks
Test Subject
Test Subject
User avatar
Posts: 2850
Joined: Nov 28, 2012
Gender: Male

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Guy Nacks » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:34 pm

View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote:As I said before, I felt very related to Shinji during the series, but in EoE I just lost that sincere empathy I had for him. Even if he’s 14 years old, I don’t think what he did was excusable at all, and even less likable. I’m glad he did have the decency to admit he was fucked up, but still, that isn’t an exculpation of his act. For God’s sake, he even locked the room of the hospital, so it was not an “accident” out of pressure at all.


I think it's important to acknowledge the context of that scene.

First of all on a meta level, that scene is an enormous author tract by Anno against fetishizing the main characters that's aimed directly at the audience.

On a thematic level, this scene comes at Shinji's psychological breaking point. Consider all of the things that have happened to him in rapid succession.

-He was just forced to kill Kaworu, the one person whim he thought showed him genuine love, empathy, and affection.
-He's been freaked out by an unwanted advance by Misato which he may or may not have construed as sexual.
-He's freaked out about all the revelations regarding Rei, including the fact that this girl whom he may or may not have had romantic feelings for has an an eerie connection to his mother. He knows something is up, but his knowing their exact connection isn't made as explicit as it is in 3.0.
-He was forced--through the Dummy System--to seriously injure Toji, one of his best friends.

All of that combined with his already established paternal issues and the trauma that comes with piloting a giant mech that battles giant monsters and nearly dying every other week broke him psychologically and he is reduced to his most base impulses.

When Shinji goes to the hospital, he's still reeling from losing Kaworu and think's that he's a horrible person because he was the one who killed him. He seeks Asuka for help because she's the strongest person that he knows. When her dress is accidentally opened, he's shocked by it. He probably thinks himself horrible in that moment even though it was unintentional. Not knowing what to do with himself because he's so psychologically fractured, he succumbs to his base, primal instincts, and by doing that, justifies his own sense of self-loathing.

This is not to excuse his actions, which are indeed morally reprehensible. But this was the end result of weeks of psychological stressors continuing to break down a young teenager who already had no sense of self esteem.

Does anyone really believe that Shinji circa episode 1 would be capable of such an act?
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

xanderkh
Donor
Donor
User avatar
Posts: 2565
Joined: Sep 12, 2011
Gender: Male

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby xanderkh » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:44 pm

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:Does anyone really believe that Shinji circa episode 1 would be capable of such an act?


Definitely NOT. If anything, aside from him succumbing to his more primal urges, I think it was more him wanting to also convince himself that he's such an awful person, that this is justification enough to commit suicide, and end the pain, which is why he's pretty much mentally comatose through the first half of the movie. He wants to die, and he probably wanted to cement that belief with such an act to "seal the deal" in a sense.

Although I cannot forgive him for such an act, it's not enough to make me despise him. More like try to give him a hug or something to help.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

Guy Nacks
Test Subject
Test Subject
User avatar
Posts: 2850
Joined: Nov 28, 2012
Gender: Male

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Guy Nacks » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:42 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:If anything, aside from him succumbing to his more primal urges, I think it was more him wanting to also convince himself that he's such an awful person, that this is justification enough to commit suicide, and end the pain, which is why he's pretty much mentally comatose through the first half of the movie. He wants to die, and he probably wanted to cement that belief with such an act to "seal the deal" in a sense.


Exactly.
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

Joseki
Sandalphon
Sandalphon
User avatar
Age: 21
Posts: 548
Joined: Dec 27, 2016
Location: Italy
Gender: Male

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Joseki » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:01 am

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Definitely NOT. If anything, aside from him succumbing to his more primal urges, I think it was more him wanting to also convince himself that he's such an awful person, that this is justification enough to commit suicide, and end the pain, which is why he's pretty much mentally comatose through the first half of the movie. He wants to die, and he probably wanted to cement that belief with such an act to "seal the deal" in a sense.


I also think that Shinji could have done much worse to Asuka, as Anno explained to Asuka's VA he could have easily raped her, instead he did something that didn't require physical contact of any kind with her, not even his fluids. I interpreted it as an unconscious form of care for her and a flicker of humanity even when he's at his lowest point (Anno also did something similar with Shinji in 3.0 after Fuyutsuki's infodump, he's on the verge of insanity but he still salute Fuyutsuki with a well-mannered bow before leaving the room).
「希望は残っているよ。どんな時にもね」

29/07/2017

CaesarMagnus
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 32
Joined: Nov 18, 2017
Location: Kingdom of Spain
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby CaesarMagnus » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:58 am

@Guy Nacks: Indeed, of course there’s a context of pressure and painful stress after Kaworu’s death that Shinji has to “release” somehow. But, as you said, it doesn’t excuse his action. I think it was Misato who said something like “hurting others is worse than hurting oneself”, and Shinji chose to hurt (humiliate) Asuka to hurt himself.

Obviously he would have never done such a thing in the beginning or during the Action Arc, neither with Asuka, nor Rei or Misato.

@xanderkh: I wouldn’t say as much as a hug, but I do see your point.
What I’m really glad is that he admitted himself he was fucked up, and I’m sure that, after 3I and all the events of EoE, when he recovers some minimal mental sanity, he’ll feel extremely guilty and ashamed of that.

View Original PostJoseki wrote:I also think that Shinji could have done much worse to Asuka, as Anno explained to Asuka's VA he could have easily raped her, instead he did something that didn't require physical contact of any kind with her, not even his fluids. I interpreted it as an unconscious form of care for her and a flicker of humanity even when he's at his lowest point.


Oh my God, really? I hope it’s an ironic comment, because that’s “crazy shipper: Berserk Mode”. It’s not even an excuse, but an outright apology of immorality.

So, in your eyes, Asuka should actually thank him for not having done anything else? “Oh, dear Shinji, I’m so glad you just locked the room and masturbated seeing my breasts. I see you really care about my and that you have such a sincere respect for me. Oh, Shinji, how lovely~”

If we use your logic, anything is justifiable, isn’t it? Even Holocaust or genocides. “Meh, it could have been worse”.

Even without "fuild contact" as you said it, it was an almost-rape, although morally it could be seen perfectly as a full violation. Asuka was utterly humilliated, even if Shinji's purpose was to hurt himself.

Joseki, Asuka would really look down at you like this, very rightfully:
SPOILER: Show
Image
Asuka's loyal Knight.

"We all have to find our own answers." - Hideaki Anno

Joseki
Sandalphon
Sandalphon
User avatar
Age: 21
Posts: 548
Joined: Dec 27, 2016
Location: Italy
Gender: Male

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Joseki » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:16 am

It's not shipping, it's a fact. Shinji locked the room and he could have done ANYTHING to her, spanning from literally nothing to killing her. Compared to what Gendo did to Ritsuko he's almost a saint.

I mean, just read Berserk. That kind of stuff.
「希望は残っているよ。どんな時にもね」

29/07/2017

CaesarMagnus
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 32
Joined: Nov 18, 2017
Location: Kingdom of Spain
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby CaesarMagnus » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:19 am

View Original PostJoseki wrote:It's not shipping, it's a fact. Shinji locked the room and he could have done ANYTHING to her, spanning from literally nothing to killing her. Compared to what Gendo did to Ritsuko he's almost a saint.


Great, now you've trascended "Berserk Mode".
Let's all thank Shinji for what he did, because that's how "good people" act. I really hope you never visit anyone in the hospital, because just imagining it is frightening.

It's like a robber entering your house with a pistol: of course, he could have killed you, but he just, let's say, shot you on the arms and legs, but let you live. Oh, how kind, wasn't he? He's almost a saint.

With that twisted moral, now I understand why Berlusconi is still so popular in Italy, haha.

And well, I know you're a quite active shipper, so yes, this case clearly shows your "shipping craziness".

I wonder what will be next... maybe saying that it was "Invincible Shinji-sama" actually "protecting Asuka from his evil lust"?
Last edited by CaesarMagnus on Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Asuka's loyal Knight.

"We all have to find our own answers." - Hideaki Anno

Joseki
Sandalphon
Sandalphon
User avatar
Age: 21
Posts: 548
Joined: Dec 27, 2016
Location: Italy
Gender: Male

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Joseki » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:27 am

EDIT: just a bunch of off topic rants and anger.
Last edited by Joseki on Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
「希望は残っているよ。どんな時にもね」

29/07/2017

CaesarMagnus
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 32
Joined: Nov 18, 2017
Location: Kingdom of Spain
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby CaesarMagnus » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:31 am

View Original PostJoseki wrote:Dude, shut the fuck up about my country and my fucking visits to the hospitals. I'm having a normal conversation, I never said to thank Shinji and you start accusing me of idiotic nonsense that I never wrote and you act like racist scum.

Get off your fucking immaginary throne, you're have no rights to write anything of what you just wrote, especially considering that I know really well what sexual violence is having first hand experience with a victim.


Racist? Haha, well. I'm Spanish, so I'm actually of your same race. That's maybe the funniest thing you could have said, typical of people without arguments.

Well, praising Shinji for being "a saint" or saying "Shinji could have done much worse" is near thanking him for having just masturbated.

That he could have done “anything” is maybe a good excuse for someone with the mind of a psychopath, but no one with a minimum of dignity would buy that hypothesis of yours. You’re trying to justify the unjustifiable.

If you want to get angry, you're free to do it. But be responsible for what you say, even more if it's immoral rubbish.
Last edited by CaesarMagnus on Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Asuka's loyal Knight.

"We all have to find our own answers." - Hideaki Anno

silvermoonlight
Bardiel
Bardiel
User avatar
Posts: 758
Joined: Jun 19, 2016
Location: UK
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby silvermoonlight » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:48 am

View Original PostJoseki wrote:I also think that Shinji could have done much worse to Asuka, as Anno explained to Asuka's VA he could have easily raped her, instead he did something that didn't require physical contact of any kind with her, not even his fluids. I interpreted it as an unconscious form of care for her and a flicker of humanity even when he's at his lowest point (Anno also did something similar with Shinji in 3.0 after Fuyutsuki's infodump, he's on the verge of insanity but he still salute Fuyutsuki with a well-mannered bow before leaving the room).


No offence intended but any form of sexual assault or rape is not about caring for someone rape and sexual assault are about control and power over the person regardless of there gender or sexuality. Also Asuka is not in a coma she is very heavily sedated and when that takes place her eyes are closed implying that's the only thing she can move as in the anime they are wide open and when its happening her heart monitor spikes implying stress. Also Shinji is well aware of what he's doing is wrong as he locks the door its a blink and you'll miss it frame but it implies that this is not some random crazy off the wall act there's thought involved.
Anywhere can be paradise as long as you have the will to live. After all, you are alive, so you will always have the chance to be happy.

My Eva fanfiction ff.net Fading In To The Stolen Light For download version please go to AO3

Joseki
Sandalphon
Sandalphon
User avatar
Age: 21
Posts: 548
Joined: Dec 27, 2016
Location: Italy
Gender: Male

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Joseki » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:12 am

Fine, whatever. I'm a stupid pedo and I enjoy sexual abuse and I also praise it. Now I'm off raping people in the streets and sucking Berlusconi's dick in the real world because that's clearly what I meant (and of course talking about fictional characters that act for a narrative purpose = talking about real scenarios)

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:No offence intended but any form of sexual assault or rape is not about caring for someone rape and sexual assault are about control and power over the person regardless of there gender or sexuality. Also Asuka is not in a coma she is very heavily sedated and when that takes place her eyes are closed implying that's the only thing she can move as in the anime they are wide open and when its happening her heart monitor spikes implying stress. Also Shinji is well aware of what he's doing is wrong as he locks the door its a blink and you'll miss it frame but it implies that this is not some random crazy off the wall act there's thought involved.


I never said that he didn't abuse her, I simply wrote that he could have very well locked the door and physically raped her, but he didn't. I also wrote that Gendo rationally planned Ritsuko's sexual and psycological abuse with the SEELE and that's much worse (hyperbole used in the process). Apparently those two facts are false and makes me a rapist apologist.

Also I don't believe that Asuka's was conscious for two reasons: Shinji's dialogue seems to imply that she isn't really there, and later during the fight against the Eva series she talks about Shinji not being there. Knowing what he did she would have acted like she did later during instrumentality.
「希望は残っているよ。どんな時にもね」

29/07/2017

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 71
Posts: 9444
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby pwhodges » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:43 am

View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote:If we use your logic, anything is justifiable, isn’t it? Even Holocaust or genocides.

Are you seriously comparing masturbation by a 14yo boy with genocide or the Holocaust?

To my mind this is a fine example of how people can lose their sense of perspective when discussing this show. There shouldn't need to be a competition for being the most shocked by the behaviour of these broken children.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Sad, sad Shinji... (details); Past avatars.
Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

CaesarMagnus
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 32
Joined: Nov 18, 2017
Location: Kingdom of Spain
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby CaesarMagnus » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:54 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Are you seriously comparing masturbation by a 14yo boy with genocide or the Holocaust?


May I ask where I said I was comparing them? It's not a comparison, but a Reductio ad absurdum, showing how such a logic would lead to very weird historical analysis. I said Holocaust as I could have mentioned any other happening.
Asuka's loyal Knight.

"We all have to find our own answers." - Hideaki Anno


Return to “Evangelion Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests