Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:19 pm

You must have missed all the lines by Yui and Rei and Misato about how important it is to keep hope and carry on despite adversities, then.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:29 pm

Aang summarizes my viewpoint about hope.

Aang: I don't know. The monks used to say that hope was just a distraction, so maybe we do need to abandon it.

Katara: What are you talking about?

Aang: Hope is not going to get us into Ba Sing Se and it's not going to help find Appa. We need to focus on what we're doing right now and that's getting across this path.


Dunno, maybe Anno prefers occidental viewpoints? I prefer Aang's viewpoint, anyway, considering that Eva's ending was purposely kept open for any interpretations, I take the most realistic approach, because yes, hope will not lead you to anywhere.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:52 pm

View Original PostLt Light Ark wrote:hope will not lead you to anywhere.

That's only an opinion, and one which I suggest is too limited.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:01 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:That's only an opinion, and one which I suggest is too limited.


You speak about it so dismissively as like it is even a bad opinion, but anyway, let me explain, Asuka did hoped that Shinji would be the 'man' she wanted him to be, but later she discovered a ugly fact, 'hoping something and just hoping' carries you to nowhere, after all you can hope that something 'good' will happen eternally, but if you don't do anything, your hope is just a dream and eventually as it doesn't become reality...well, you become embittered.

Also and if your hopes aren't realized? What you have is a churning bitterness inside you, so why dismissing it is for the best, all what one needs is willpower to proceed forward, nothing more, problem? She is already embittered, and I don't believe she could look to Shinji and believe that she could be what she did want him to be.
Last edited by Lt Light Ark on Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby xanderkh » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:04 pm

View Original PostLt Light Ark wrote:I take the most realistic approach, because yes, hope will not lead you to anywhere.


Okay, I'm just gonna get this out RIGHT NOW: Grimdark does NOT equal REALITY, nor does it equate to "realism" in the realm of fiction. Realism in fiction is just the acknowledgement of consequences of actions in a story, whether good or bad, like how no one acknowledges Bruce Wayne's ENORMOUS financial "spendings" in most stories of Batman.

And again, Grimdark is NOT reality's default state. Reality is composed of multible colors of varying emotions, whether black, white, orange, blue, or even plaid, or hexagonical.

The whole concept of the idea of the quote unquote "Real World" being nothing more than a self-perpetuating misery fest where everyone is an asshole to each other is JUST AN OPINION. It's not fact, as reality is a ton of examples, not just sorrow and misery......and it's ALL ALAN MOORE'S FAULT!
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:12 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Okay, I'm just gonna get this out RIGHT NOW: Grimdark does NOT equal REALITY, nor does it equate to "realism" in the realm of fiction. Realism in fiction is just the acknowledgement of consequences of actions in a story, whether good or bad, like how no one acknowledges Bruce Wayne's ENORMOUS financial "spendings" in most stories of Batman.

And again, Grimdark is NOT reality's default state. Reality is composed of multible colors of varying emotions, whether black, white, orange, blue, or even plaid, or hexagonical.

The whole concept of the idea of the quote unquote "Real World" being nothing more than a self-perpetuating misery fest where everyone is an asshole to each other is JUST AN OPINION. It's not fact, as reality is a ton of examples, not just sorrow and misery......and it's ALL ALAN MOORE'S FAULT!


That is not Grimdark, instead it is conclusion took from Buddhism itself, or at least the Vajrayana School (there's a lot of types of Buddhism), and what? Sometimes things goes good and people do mature, other times they doesn't.

It is 50/50, random, okay, you may hope for the better, but what will you do if that is not the case?

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby xanderkh » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:22 pm

^
KEEP TRYING! That's the thing about hope, it's never ending, and just stewing in your own misery isn't going to help that. Hope is what keeps us going, it's what helps us look for a better tomorrow, even in the little things.

Yes, there's a lot of crap in the world, but there's also good in the world too, and just FOCUSING on the bad stuff will only make you jaded and miserable. And before you say it, NO, focusing on what's good in the world does not mean I'm devaluing or ignoring the crap going on in the world. Appreciating the good things in the world helps me stay calm and hopeful towards the awful things that are happening in the world. You have to give yourself permission to be happy, otherwise you'll just be miserable 24/7. There's a time and place for focusing on the crap in the world, and also for appreciating what good there is, which is a LOT.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:00 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:^
KEEP TRYING! That's the thing about hope, it's never ending, and just stewing in your own misery isn't going to help that. Hope is what keeps us going, it's what helps us look for a better tomorrow, even in the little things.

Yes, there's a lot of crap in the world, but there's also good in the world too, and just FOCUSING on the bad stuff will only make you jaded and miserable. And before you say it, NO, focusing on what's good in the world does not mean I'm devaluing or ignoring the crap going on in the world. Appreciating the good things in the world helps me stay calm and hopeful towards the awful things that are happening in the world. You have to give yourself permission to be happy, otherwise you'll just be miserable 24/7. There's a time and place for focusing on the crap in the world, and also for appreciating what good there is, which is a LOT.


Well, I must say that I am happy for you, I, instead, try to ignore hope, after all high expectations, great disappointments, I do not devalue the act of trying, but one day I asked myself why I feared even if I had hope?

Then I've seen this quote, done by Chogyam Trungpa.

To overcome fear, we must also overcome hope.

Then I overcame hope itself, then...I became fearless, I didn't feared failure or any disappointment, they were...absolutely nothing.

Hope and fear is a feeling with two sides. As long as there’s one, there’s always the other. This is the root of our pain. In the world of hope and fear, we always have to change the channel, change the temperature, change the music, because something is getting uneasy, something is getting restless, something is beginning to hurt, and we keep looking for alternatives.

In a nontheistic state of mind, abandoning hope is an affirmation, the beginning of the beginning. You could even put “Abandon hope” on your refrigerator door instead of more conventional aspirations like “Every day in every way I’m getting better and better.”

From When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times, pages 40-41

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:45 pm

View Original PostLt Light Ark wrote:To overcome fear, we must also overcome hope.

Just because someone said it doesn't mean you have to agree; for many people that one is plain wrong.

Also, the thing is that all these discussion which are purporting to be about characters, are doing more to tell us about the posters than anything else.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:30 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Then you better get used to us debating you over this, just as your validations for their toxicity are just as "opinions" to us about their ability to grow and reconcile.

How do you think they could reconcile and grow? What's your take on the post EoE world?
Gob Hobblin wrote:Taking someone's argument, and creating some bizarre conclusion from it that has no connection to what was said doesn't make you a complicated individual presenting facts, it makes you an obstinate individual who doesn't advance the conversation.

So I guess that kinda makes me dumb then, with me being obstinate and all.

And yes, I did come to that conclusion on my own, because that was the overall impression I got from these two.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:55 pm

So I guess that kinda makes me dumb then, with me being obstinate and all.


You see, that's a perfect example of what I'm saying.

Obstinate doesn't mean dumb, it means stubborn, intractable, mulish. Generally unwavering and unyielding in opinion. Sometimes that can be a virtue, but if you are creating meaning where it isn't, than it's not.

So, if you get 'dumb' from 'obstinate,' than you are either deliberately or incorrectly creating an assumption from a statement that has no bearing on the conclusion. It's like me saying, "There is water in this glass," and you saying, "That must mean this book is made of meat." It's nonsensical, not connected, and irritating.

So a better statement to make would be, "So I guess that kinda of makes me annoying, with me being obstinate and all." That would be a more logical conclusion to draw.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby NoAltRealities » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:46 pm

View Original PostLt Light Ark wrote:Hope that Asuka and Shinji could eventually get better? I already said.

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Nietzsche influenced Sartre that influenced Anno.



That obscure appeal to authority is not really all that relevant and sounds like you’re stretching but ok

Also that contradicts the message of the show
HhHaaa?

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:34 am

View Original PostNoAltRealities wrote:That obscure appeal to authority is not really all that relevant and sounds like you’re stretching but ok

Also that contradicts the message of the show


No, not really, look, some stories may have aesops and things ends up in tragedy in universe, just to nail it, like the tale of the Frog and the Scorpion.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:51 am

View Original PostLt Light Ark wrote:No, not really, look, some stories may have aesops and things ends up in tragedy in universe, just to nail it, like the tale of the Frog and the Scorpion.
the possibility of tragedy does not prove it happened in specifc scenarios. This tangent of yours isn't relevant.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:49 pm

So I'm just going to ignore the current back and forth and jump into this thread with my current views on the series since I find this topic interesting in how it relates to the series as a whole.

Every fleshed out relationship in this series is toxic. This was done intentionally, as Anno said the entire cast is sick. This was done to further Anno's message of not shying away from pain. Shinji, after he decided against Instrumentality, said he fully expected to be betrayed and abandoned again. But he still wanted to see everyone again because he believed his feelings were real. This is of course not something one would want to encourage IRL, the kinds of relationships we see in NGE are the kind one would be best getting away from. But NGE itself is an exaggerated allegory that uses these extremes to make its point. And that point is to not forsake these bonds. Asuka will certainly hurt Shinji again and vice-versa but even in its most cynical moment during the Komm Susser Todd sequence it still acknowledges the importance of said bonds.

It's time for me to respect
The ones you love
Mean more than anything

If Shinji had abandoned these bonds, and he almost did, he'd have nothing left.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:07 am

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:So I'm just going to ignore the current back and forth and jump into this thread with my current views on the series since I find this topic interesting in how it relates to the series as a whole.

Every fleshed out relationship in this series is toxic. This was done intentionally, as Anno said the entire cast is sick. This was done to further Anno's message of not shying away from pain. Shinji, after he decided against Instrumentality, said he fully expected to be betrayed and abandoned again. But he still wanted to see everyone again because he believed his feelings were real. This is of course not something one would want to encourage IRL, the kinds of relationships we see in NGE are the kind one would be best getting away from. But NGE itself is an exaggerated allegory that uses these extremes to make its point. And that point is to not forsake these bonds. Asuka will certainly hurt Shinji again and vice-versa but even in its most cynical moment during the Komm Susser Todd sequence it still acknowledges the importance of said bonds.
.

Well said.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:53 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:the possibility of tragedy does not prove it happened in specifc scenarios. This tangent of yours isn't relevant.


So the results of Third Impact were actually good? Look, every single moment that a upbeat music happened in this series (except for humor) it meant that things could or look good (in case of Eva going beserk) or when things were going REALLY BAD (like during Instrumentality or when Instrumentality is being averted, I speak also when Instrumentality was veing averted because you can see the state of the world after.)

Anno did nailed his points about bonds hard enough to anyone to see, that doesn't mean that in universe such things could be possible again, again EVA in that scene as well said [/i]'don't reject bonds because of the possibility of pain, because when it is the next time to you to have one you may as well suffer ten times more than before.'[i]

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:18 am

View Original PostLt Light Ark wrote:So the results of Third Impact were actually good?

First, let's establish that the third impact was reversed, Shinji rejected instrumentality. With that in mind, the ending gives us a world where
-> Everyone has the choice of coming back or not
-> The life forms that were threatening to eliminate life as we know it are gone
-> Seele is gonzo since they all are happy instrumentality goo


Yeah, it's not perfect, but we're in a better place than we started the series in.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:50 am

The NGE worldstate is...awful. Even ignoring the FAR's colossal screw up we have the guys that caused the deaths of half the worlds population using this to take over the worlds government. We have people being starved to fund their fanatical religious beliefs It's also very easy to see Anno's view that Japan is a nation of children reflected in the cast. Add to that the fact that the EoTV, the EoE poster, and Rei herself in EoE indicate the problems the cast suffer through are a common thread across all of humanity. This is all allegory for issues he felt Japanese society faced. Not being in control of their own destiny, not knowing how to be adults, not knowing how to build relationships, running away from reality.

You know there is probably quite a bit of lost in translation stuff happening. We often forget that this show was made for Japan and looking at Kishimoto's defense of Sakura's character or Hinamori's popularity in Japan for her loyalty to Aizen. Yeah...

In a sense I doubt any relationship in that world would ever be remotely close to what we consider healthy. Partly because lol Japan, partly because of the point Anno wanted to make.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Cybermat47 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:57 am

View Original PostLt Light Ark wrote:hope will not lead you to anywhere.


Hope will lead you everywhere. How can you go on in your darkest moments without hope?
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