Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:32 am

"Shipping" is this site's version of "fake news". Just address the argument, whether or not the arguer is motivated by shipping isn't relevant.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Thomas68 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:04 pm

Both should just learn how to live with themselves before trying to think about any kind of relationship at all. If that's possible anyway.

Also, consider the huge possibility of holding a grudge for own or others past actions. In reality, very few people can leave their hatred behind them and move on, specially 14 year old kids who probably will have to deal with serious mental issues after the lulzfest that was Angel Wars and Instrumentality. Expect some therapy sessions under Xanax and Zoloft abuse. High chances of both overdosing on meds, if not shotgun mouthwash (a fitting end, might I add).

The odds of a bad blood between Shinji and Asuka rising is far greater than the odds of a "developed relationship" or "personal growth", whatever that means.

In the end, Insturmentality was nothing more than Neon Genesis Evangelion: Tang with LSD Bad Trip and Fapping Remorse.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:44 am

View Original PostThomas68 wrote:Both should just learn how to live with themselves

They kinda did though. That was kinda what the climax of EOE was about.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:03 pm

If the whole relationship between Shinji and Asuka is toxic and hopeless, then why is it that Anno put them together in the first place? Especially towards the end? It's not like the shipping thing was his idea to begin with, nor was it his intention to go with it. I think it's certain that Shinji would be better off with another girl and for Asuka to be with another guy. At least they don't have to deal with each other. Because let's face it, their relationship was destined to fail.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Blockio » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:09 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:If the whole relationship between Shinji and Asuka is toxic and hopeless, then why is it that Anno put them together in the first place? Especially towards the end? It's not like the shipping thing was his idea to begin with, nor was it his intention to go with it. I think it's certain that Shinji would be better off with another girl and for Asuka to be with another guy. At least they don't have to deal with each other. Because let's face it, their relationship was destined to fail.

Where did you get that from?? By far not a AsuShin person myself, but its pretty clear that they dont seriously hate each other
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:10 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Where did you get that from??

He has his very own thread on the matter.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:25 pm

C.T.1290 wrote:Then why is it that Anno put them together in the first place? Especially towards the end? .

In my opinion, Anno did a good job portraying Hedgehog’s Dilemma through the characters he created, and the case of Asuka and Shinji is a very extreme, yet clear, way of showing that dilemma. He could have chosen subtler ways of depicting it, for we all suffer of it in our daily interactions with people, according to Schopenhauer; but in Evangelion he chose to show it directly, and that’s why there’s so much tension and raw emotions that get to make us feel somehow uncomfortable (not only with Asuka and Shinji, but with Misato's case too, for instance).

As for shipping, I think many shippers consider NGE is a series of “boy meets girl”, and thus, come to the conclusion that there needs to be a romantic closure. For some reason, many people feel the necessity of giving such closure to all series and films, as if it made them feel better or filled a void in their hearts. However, Evangelion is not a romantic series whatsoever (and if it were romantic, it would be completely unconventional: “boy meets three girls and a gay alien”. No), and, as I see it, what Anno tries to convey is something very different from a rom-com: “shy boy meets other people and struggles to interact with them. He hates himself, but learns that life isn't as bad as he thought”.

If someone feels the imperative need of shipping characters to feel better or happy, it’s their problem. But, as far as the series/film are, as you said, I don’t think that was part of Anno’s plans. In EoTV and EoE he left everything ambiguous and open, up to the audience imagination, maybe because he wasn’t sure of what kind of closure he could give to his characters. That was an excellent idea, in my opinion.

Blockio wrote:It's pretty clear that they dont seriously hate each other

I know what you mean, and it’s true that they don’t hate everything of each other. But there’s a remarkable amount of hatred, disgust and disappointment in their relationship, and that’s what makes it utterly dysfunctional and toxic towards the end. If that hatred (whether it was genuine and/or based on self-hatred) wasn't serious, things would have been very different.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:33 am

View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote:I
I know what you mean, and it’s true that they don’t hate everything of each other. But there’s a remarkable amount of hatred, disgust and disappointment in their relationship, and that’s what makes it utterly dysfunctional and toxic towards the end. If that hatred (whether it was genuine and/or based on self-hatred) wasn't serious, things would have been very different.

That hatred would exist with or without each other.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:38 pm

View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote:I know what you mean, and it’s true that they don’t hate everything of each other. But there’s a remarkable amount of hatred, disgust and disappointment in their relationship, and that’s what makes it utterly dysfunctional and toxic towards the end. If that hatred (whether it was genuine and/or based on self-hatred) wasn't serious, things would have been very different.


Well yeah, but that's also a result of their frustration at themselves for not being to able to make it work. Asuka doesn't like the fact that she's attracted to Shinji, since it goes against her façade of the proud "elite pilot", but she does it anyway. And she gets even more frustrated with Shinji rejecting her, at least in her perception, since Shinji just generally didn't know what the hell she wanted. Hell, Asuka is really bad at communicating her intentions, like when she makes a relatively obscure Biblical reference to an average Japanese middle schooler boy, in hope he'll get that the Walls of Jericho are famous for falling. Yeah, nice going, overachieving German prodigy girl.

But like I've mentioned before, the fact that it's not unambiguously hate or love it's exacly because of the way it's used to make the story work. In some earlier posts myself and some other people mention that they are simply toxic as people, not only in their relationship with each other, at least up until EoE closes their character arcs - and starts new ones. Ultimately, whether one thinks they can at the very least become friends after EoE also hinges on one's views on the show at large: if humanity is strong enough to face reality and come back from Instrumentality, then why can't Asuka and Shinji at the very least forgive each other and get along (note that at no point is romance necessary). If humanity dooms itself to stay within the fantasy world of Instrumentality, then Shinji and Asuka might as well not have learned anything and will kill each other or something. Asuka expresses her disgust (though whether it's at him or at something else is hard to say), yet she also caresses him tenderly in an open display of affection that was not only impossible if she had nothing but contempt for him, but also disarmed him by making him realize he was indeed in reality and that not only did Asuka react to him instead of serving as an object for his desires (and then we get into the whole thing of escapism and objectification, yadda yadda), but also showed him she was, indeed, capable of something besides her tsun self, and that there was the possibility of positivity (to put it mildly) to be found in the real world. Whether they can learn and grow more, again, is left to the viewer. But I think that the very fact that, after so much grotesque death and suffering, Eva still presents us with the possibility (though not the certainty) of growth, change and happiness, that it is indeed quite optimistic.

I do understand and agree with your thoughts on shipping as a phenomenon though - most often than not it just generates needless drama and infighting. In some cases, some people can get so obsessive with their ships that they become outright aggressive and toxic towards everyone else in the fanbase, and usually don't even care about anything else in that work that doesn't involve their ship, sometimes twisting everything to fit their ship, or just outright ignoring it (far more often). I can think of a few fanbases which had their level of discussion greatly lowered because you just couldn't talk about anything without people trying to make it into a certain ship. Thankfully I rarely ever see that happening in the Eva fanbase.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:42 pm

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:Asuka doesn't like the fact that she's attracted to Shinji, since it goes against her façade of the proud "elite pilot", but she does it anyway.


If she didn't like that, then why is it that she made some attempts to get close to him anyway? She probably could've gone for a different, maybe one to meet her standards. I don't why she settled for him of all people. Was she just so desperate for someone to give her comfort that anyone would do, and it didn't matter who it was?

: if humanity is strong enough to face reality and come back from Instrumentality, then why can't Asuka and Shinji at the very least forgive each other and get along

Yeah, I think it might a long time before these two could even begin to forgive each other, and even longer for them to do so completely. I don't Asuka would ever forgive Shinji for that hospital incident and for letting her, and I don't think Shinji would forgive Asuka for rejecting his plea for help and for the harsh ways she treated him. So much damage has been done between them, how can they hope to fix it?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:53 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So much damage has been done between them, how can they hope to fix it?

No one claims it would be easy - but they have a lifetime to try.

Remember, they are human, and one of the meanings of the word humanity is being humane - i.e. showing the capability for compassion, understanding, sympathy, kindness, magnanimity, even mercy. The word is not a contrived PC construction to make liberals feel good - it is a natural expression of the capabilities that humans have found within themselves in varying degrees through the ages.

To deny at least the possibility of such things to these characters is to deny their humanity (in the simplest sense of their being human).
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:49 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Remember, they are human, and one of the meanings of the word humanity is being humane - i.e. showing the capability for compassion, understanding, sympathy, kindness, magnanimity, even mercy.

And you believe Asuka to be fully capable of such things, after what we're shown?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:56 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:And you believe Asuka to be fully capable of such things, after what we're shown?

Capability is an attribute, even if not expressed under some circumstances; so, yes, she has those capabilities. She has already shown them a little - more may require effort, and time to rebuild self-confidence, but she should be up for the first and certainly has the second!

What I don't get about your view of her is your apparent insistence on only the worst possible outcome from her state being possible at all. If you apply that to the world in general, you'd be the most pessimistic person I've come across; but if it's specific to Asuka, why treat her differently?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:11 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:And you believe Asuka to be fully capable of such things, after what we're shown?

She caressed a dude trying to kill her after being brutally murdered with her mom who spent the last years of her life wanting to commit suicide with Asuka.

You have an incredibly high standard for "being capable of kindness".
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:01 am

I'm a bit of a Johnny-come-lately to this discussion, but so far I think Settie has hit the hammer on the nail: we are looking at the relationships as somehow toxic, when the series itself is an examination of not just relationships, but individuals. The individuals are the ones who create the toxicity of the relationships, and the series is filled with broken people.

People who are often broken in ways very similar to real-life. It's one the of the reasons viewers have such strong attachments and convictions to the characters of this series, as they are able to seize and project their own feelings, inadequacies, and insecurities onto the characters in the show. That being said, none of these people are remotely healthy or stable.

Which is to say, if there's questions about Asuka's capability to express healthier affection, those questions should be asked across the broad spectrum of all Eva's characters.

Frankly, Asuka is completely capable of kindness, because she doesn't demonstrate the traits of someone who is a sociopath: she is self-centered, certainly, but she's not a sociopath. She is capable of having her feelings hurt, expresses a desire for a closer relationship with people, and has emotional outbursts when she can't get that relationship, or fails to understand how to make it happen. These are actually fairly normal behaviors for a teenager, but would certainly be exacerbated by Asuka's unique conditions.

The same is true of the other Eva characters: they all have fairly normal social and emotional anxieties and conditions that, in 'normal' circumstances, would be far less destructive (to themselves and others), but have been ramped up. I would point out, however, that these characters start out stable and degenerate tremendously over the course of the series as they get closer to that inevitable Doomsday. In which case, how are we judging Asuka (and the other characters)? By their flaws as they stood at the beginning of the series, or their flaws at the end (when they are mentally and emotionally broken)?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:47 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:You have an incredibly high standard for "being capable of kindness".

Yeah, that could be a part of how I was raised. Also, I have this belief that everyone should always do the right thing, or as often as they can, to set a good example to others every now and then. And you know how I tend to judge some others for not doing the right thing, but the wrong instead. Because some actions do have consequences, and that's what happened to Asuka, she suffered her consequences.
Gob Hobblin wrote:Frankly, Asuka is completely capable of kindness, because she doesn't demonstrate the traits of someone who is a sociopath: she is self-centered, certainly, but she's not a sociopath. She is capable of having her feelings hurt, expresses a desire for a closer relationship with people, and has emotional outbursts when she can't get that relationship, or fails to understand how to make it happen. These are actually fairly normal behaviors for a teenager, but would certainly be exacerbated by Asuka's unique conditions.

Yes, it's true that she's not a sociopath, but she still treated others poorly nonetheless.

As for teenagers, I have a bit a negative view on some of them, especially the kinds who are jerks to people for no personal reason but for the sake of being jerks. They seem to like to give people trouble with any chance they get. And that's my problem with Asuka. Sure, she's a damaged child, but her attitude, to me, is not quite acceptable. If she were that abrasive towards me like is towards others, I certainly wouldn't stand for it. Plus, she's the half reason why her relationship with Shinji ended on such a downfall, and Shinji being the second one because of how inexperienced with such a thing, what was Asuka expecting?
In which case, how are we judging Asuka (and the other characters)? By their flaws as they stood at the beginning of the series, or their flaws at the end (when they are mentally and emotionally broken)?

Well, for me that would be the start. When she was introduced, she came off as rude, selfish, egotistical, bratty, obnoxious, and quite boastful oftentimes. And especially towards the end, I remembered from her bathtub scene of what a pitiful sight she was, turning herself into this sad little creature she had become instead of reflecting on her choice of actions and making attempts to fix them. But I guess her trauma was too great for her to overcome and move past them. How would she be able to move on her own?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:39 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Yeah, that could be a part of how I was raised. Also, I have this belief that everyone should always do the right thing, or as often as they can, to set a good example to others every now and then. And you know how I tend to judge some others for not doing the right thing, but the wrong instead.


That's very laudable, indeed, and I'm glad to see there are still people out there with noble morals and high standards, despite living in an immoral society of consumerism and hedonism in which no one assumes any kind of responsibility for anything.

In any case, back to the thread's issue, there's a post made by Tiffany Grant on her blog, called "In Defense of Asuka", and I think it might be very suitable right now:

Tiffany Grant wrote:“Okay, I know - I hear it all the time - she's annoying. There. I've said
it. But wait! There IS more... Asuka is also very misunderstood. I'm sure
some of you are probably wondering: "what gives?" The American
VA for Asuka is writing about herself? Not at all - this is about HER.
Now I realize that this being a site about Asuka's VA, I am probably
"preaching to the choir" as they say, but I feel it's worth being said.
In the 13 or 14 months it took me to voice all of Asuka's episodes,
I really feel like I got to know her intimately - she became a part of me.
She's kinda like my kid sister, which is why I feel the need to stick up
for her, so here goes...

The only Eva pilot who actually likes her job, Asuka is a breed apart. A
mother who left her, a father and stepmother who didn't care... How'd you
expect her to be "normal"? As if there is such a thing a "normal" in this
series... And now I will admit a terrible secret - I LIKE Asuka. No, I mean
it! I really do! With the odds stacked insurmountably against her, she
triumphed (for a time anyway) over her own fears and inadequacies and against
humanity's worst enemies - the angels. She didn't let anyone hold her down.
She took pride (some might say TOO much pride) in her accomplishments and
steadfastly refused to take no for an answer. Okay, she IS also beautiful
AND intelligent (a COLLEGE degree by age 14!), but those are not the only
reasons to admire this Evangelion firecracker. Let's face it - the gal's got
balls.

My favorite description of Asuka to date appeared in the Dec. 1997 issue of
Animerica magazine (referring to my portrayal of the character): "...shrill
and unpleasant enough to make the character properly unlikeable but not so
over the top as to make her completely unsympathetic." - Mark Simmons. That
pretty much wraps up my feelings for her in a nutshell.

She is, of course, the polar opposite of Rei with Shinji sitting somewhere in
the middle. It's almost like the old Flintstones episodes with Fred talking
to his "conscience" - the devil saying what he'd really like to do & the
angel (coincidence?) telling him what he was supposed to do. I know my
philosophizing probably won't persuade the more vehement Asuka detractors,
but I wish people wouldn't be so hasty to judge her - let those among you
without sin cast the first stone.”


Tiffany Grant, 1998.
http://www.truantpixel.com/eva-r/tiff/essays.htm
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:41 am

Tiffany Grant hit the nail on the head with that essay, which really gets to the heart of Asuka's characterization. She is an awful person, but every character in Evangelion, to greater and lesser extents, are awful people. But all of them (Asuka included) take steps to try and fix themselves, or right themselves in the world. This world that they're in, though, is greater than their ability to do so. It takes a cosmic reset to give Shinji and Asuka a fighting chance of normalizing themselves, whereas the culmination of Rei's arc sees her essentially cease to exist as a character completely.

Like, this description here: rude, selfish, egotistical, bratty, obnoxious, and quite boastful oftentimes. That's a LOT of teenagers, and that's something they can't generally help. Teenagers do not have 'stable' emotions and mentalities. They are developing in the midst of a furious blend of hormones, uncertainty, and frustration, and that's in the BEST of circumstances. You clearly recognize that Asuka was not in the best of circumstances to begin with, but you seem to also ignore that she is in the WORST of circumstances, as well. You're expecting a teenager to 'fix herself,' while being physically pummeled beyond what a normal and healthy adult would be able to endure, with no emotional support or backstop, with the hanging and pressing specter of death due to failure. That would break a healthy adult, much less a teenager with no help to figure it out.

You can't expect teenagers to do these things for themselves. Some can't, but those are exceptions: in terms of maturity and emotional development, the majority of teenagers simply fail upwards, and they are usually lucky to have someone guiding those failures into successes, or at least an understanding of what they feel, why they feel it, and what they should do.

Rude, selfish, egotistical, bratty, obnoxious, and quite boastful oftentimes...that's what a teenager expected to succeed develops WITHOUT guidance. Those are defense mechanisms. Those are the traits of a person who is trying to prove her worth, and competence, and maturity, without knowing what those things really are. I've done that. Many people have done that. I'm also fortunate enough to have lived life enough to recognize that, without the kind of stress this character endured.

And that's the place in the canon story: to watch as this character (and others) are ground into nothing, to the very limit of their endurance, to see what they do at the end when there is nowhere left to run. Misato, in her own way, proves to be the mother figure she thought she couldn't be. Ritsuko abandons all pretense of emotional superiority and logical reach to embrace her total hurt and sense of betrayal. Rei becomes the tool she was always intended to be, but turns against the man who wanted to use her, and willingly gave the choices he wanted to someone more deserving. Shinji, after wallowing in the depths of self-pity, committing a frankly heinous action (and knowing he did so), and causing the world to end, rejected the end he caused, and gave humanity an option for a reset that seemed to be, frankly, needed (the world of Evangelion was already kind of an awful place before he ended it).

And Asuka went down fighting. She proved to be the powerful, aggressive, talented, and skilled Pilot she always claimed (and wanted) to be. She failed, in the end, but it was the kind of failure I would want to have: having expended all that I have left, giving a little more, and still left reaching for the opponent before the coup de grace. I would have loved to see an emotionally stable Asuka come to terms with her flaws, to become a better person, but...that's not this kind of story.

A final, rage-filled battle with her as she always saw herself is the next best thing you can get for a completed character arc.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
-Sorrow

Rei wanted to know what waffles tasted like.
-Literary Eagle

We have to remember what's important in life: friends, waffles, and work. Or waffles, friends, and work. But work has to come in third.
-Leslie Knope

Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Bhorium » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:41 pm

Well, to cite a classic (and a great moment from Mr. Plinkett's "The Force Awakens" review): Asuka might be a "bad egg" but "blaming the kids is a lie and a shame. You know exactly who's to blame..."
Sorry, I was soliloquising again. Filthy habit.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:37 pm

Asuka isn't a bad egg. Considering all she's gone through and that she was still able to find the will to live, she's a pretty damn tough egg.
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