"I need you" - Who Said It to Who

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"I need you" - Who Said It to Who

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Postby anonymaus » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:39 pm

I think I figured out who says this line to who, conclusively.

In one of the earlier scripts for EoE the "I need you" title screen was placed directly before a live-action sequence depicting a world where Shinji didn't exist and Asuka had hooked up with Touji.
Some people have used this as evidence that "I need you" isn't something that Asuka or Shinji said to the other, using the reasoning: "In this older script, it wasn't even placed before the final scene."
This explanation has never made sense to me. It actually reaffirms that it's Asuka speaking it about or to Shinji, because it comes directly before a depiction of a world where Shinji doesn't exist. As if to say: "Here's how miserable I would be without you." It's some Ghost of Christmas Past stuff.

Now here is "I need you"'s placement in the scene they went with. Finally, remember that to kick off global instrumentality, Shinji says the words: "Nobody needs me, so everyone should die."

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Re: "I need you" - Who Said It to Who

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:56 pm

I’m afraid what you figured out is merely an overanalysis of a live-action that wasn’t that hard to interpret.

While it is not clear whether “I Need You” is a stand-alone title, if it's the name of the scene or the last part of episode 26' (the last 45 minutes), or if i'ts just the response to the questions that arose in the previous title cards, your hypothesis just looks like a justification of your favourite ship, but nothing else. But, personally, I don’t think either “I Need You” or any of the other titles are said by one or another character specifically, but I see them as general statements of how human interactions work.

Thus, I find it strange to state that it’s just Asuka who “says” that, when actually any other character of the cast, even Shinji, could have said that as well. I think it’s very clear from the beginning of the series that Hedgehog’s Dilemma is a major point in Evangelion, and the last titles clearly represent that. I suggest you to read this to realize how they are combined: Complementation of the Last Title Cards. It’s like a conversation in which one of them is afraid of opening to others (Love is Destructive), then the other person says goodbye (Take Care of Yourself) and the former admits that living alone is impossible (I Need You). It’s pretty much what we are shown during the whole series. “Do Your Love Me? > Love is Destructive > Take Care of Yourself > I Need You”
A good example would be Misato and Kaji, who show it to us very clearly: they just give sexual comfort to each other, without any deep connection at all, but they’re afraid of being separated.

The live-action depicts exactly the same: an adult Asuka who has something with Toji, does nothing but criticize him and think hers is a mediocre life (when talking to her “senpai” Rei), but then she implies that she couldn’t live alone and that she's using him not to feel lonely. Here’s the complete dialogue (Taken from EvaOtaku):

SPOILER: Show
The dialog drama continues thereafter with the location changing here and there. Only the dialog links the time-line. Elevator, escalator, lunch, on the roof, a nearby convenience store, a box lunch shop, etc.
Rei:
"So what's the problem? You get romance and at the same time your sexual appetites are satisfied."
Asuka:
"But it doesn't feel like that. The seductive inner feelings are only at the start,
and now it's just like a condom that's been all used and stretched out.
Even when we're together it's like we're immersed in daily routine, just floating along aimlessly.
Asuka:
"Aaargh! – It's not romatic in the least!"
Rei:
"You don't really know if it's love until after you hang up the phone."
Asuka:
"Huh? Really?"
Rei:
"When you're doing it, it seems like the purpose is just to overlap your bodies, and there's no warm, fuzzy feeling.
You're just ravenous toward each other.
Asuka:
"Whenever we put a little distance between us, I get confused and wonder whether I even really like him."
Asuka:
"It's the same old pattern every time where I think that maybe I'm just forcing myself to believe that I like him."
Asuka:
"It won't last for long. I have a pretty short stance."
Rei:
"You're pretty cold-hearted, but you just become attached pretty easily, don't you -- like keeping a dog."
Rei:
"And you're the type that recklessly and willfully causes men to misunderstand."
Asuka:
"He's quick to say he's stupid as an evasion tactic."
Rei:
"That's because he thinks that if the word "stupid" comes from his own mouth he'll be forgiven."
Asuka:
"He does it because he thinks he can always get my sympathy."
Rei:
"That's because he's afraid if he doesn't have excuses ready.
Because afterwards he'll only end up hurting himself."
Asuka:
"He's a nuisance, seriously -- always ringing my cellphone at work."
Asuka:
"But then, when he doesn't call I get really irritated and upset..."
Rei (rather coldly):
"That's just selfishness on your part, isn't it?"

Like Misato, she just couldn’t endure the coldness of loneliness, despite the mediocrity of her relationships. It's not romantic, it's disgusting and sad, but it's not worse than being all alone. Reading more than that in this silly scene is pointless, I think.

And here’s what Rei and Shinji talk about in the end (source: EvaOtaku and AngerlFire):
SPOILER: Show
Shinji's voice (abruptly):
"Asuka"
Asuka turns to face the camera.
Instantly the camera hides behind a telephone pole with a low angle. (as if it was suddenly afraid)
Crane close-up shot of Asuka turning and continuing to walk as if nothing had happened.
The camera follows her again. (from the perspective of an invisible Shinji)
Shinji's voice (abruptly again):
"I'm not here."
The film frame feed stops suddenly. (creaking sound of motor slippage)
Then Shinji's voice is heard over the forcibly stopped scene.
Shinji's voice:
"This isn't reality. It's a world without me."
Shinji's voice:
"Even if I'm not here, the world doesn't change."
Shinji's voice:
"Only the relationships with me have disappeared."
Shinji's voice:
"That's right, I'm not here."
Rei's voice (left):
"You were taking revenge on reality with convenient dreams."
Shinji's voice:
"Is that bad/wrong?"
Rei's voice (right):
"You were fleeing into dreams, and glossing over the truth."
Shinji's voice:
"Is it wrong to dream!?"
Rei's voice:
"That is not a dream. It is just an illusion. A compensation for reality."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shinji: "Where is the true reality?"
Shinji: "At the end of the dream"
We then see Misato (Mitsuishi Kotono), Rei (Hayashibara Megumi) and Asuka (Miyamura Yuuko) standing still in the street, looking directly at the camera (this shot remained in episode 26').
Shinji's voice: "I'm sorry, Ayanami.
I'll return to where I used to be.
There may be nobody there, by now, but I'll return.
I guess there is nothing good for me, there, never was and never will
be, but I'll return.
Because it's the place I belong and I have to live in."
Rei's voice: "If you really don't like it, you can give up."
Shinji's voice: "That's fine."
Yui's voice: "So, you'll be okay, now?"
Shinji's voice: "Yeah. That will be okay for now."
Rei's voice: "I see."


As you can see, it has very little to do with a cryptic romantic message from Asuka to Shinji. It’s, in fact, an illusion Rei shows him, with very little relevance. However, in case it was as you said, and if it was Asuka imagining herself without Shinji, let me ask you something, please: do you think that, after all they’ve been through, Asuka would consider that living with Shinji would be less miserable than being with Toji or actually any other man? Really, after how pissed off and even hateful Asuka got towards him, and after the bitterness of their relationship? Do you really think all we saw that happened between them was for nothing? Do you really think there was no bitterness at all, and that prideful Asuka would be so out-of-character to wish for a future with Shinji so easily? If that’s so, let me please give you the one and only "canonical" response to that: How disgusting, as Asuka says in the end.

In any case, as you may have seen in the sources I pasted, that’s not what happens. It’s not Asuka sending messages to her “beloved knight in shining armour Shinji-sama”. For God's sake, she doesn't even know him in that illusion. What the live-action seems to represent is a raw and miserable depiction of the Hedgehog’s Dilemma with Asuka as the main character. As for Shinji, he's just not there, he’s replaceable, irrelevant to the world; everyone could live without him. In fact, Rei asks him to give up, but he eventually decides to go back to reality and face pain as it is. He might be just one human among many, but even so, he wants to live.

Of course, you can interpret it the way you prefer and I'm no one to change your mind. However, please don't claim that you've "conclusively figured out" truth because I'm afraid you haven't. If you like that interpretation of yours, go ahead and believe it, but don't try to present it as the only and absolute verity no one else could see until you discovered it. Just saying.
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Re: "I need you" - Who Said It to Who

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Postby anonymaus » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:21 pm

I skimmed your post and didn't see anything disputing the facts of what I said, just statements that you personally dislike it followed by your own ideas about the phrase

Do you have any explanation for why, in both instances of the phrase's appearance, it comes right before a scenario directly involving Shinji and Asuka or their relationship? In the same way that every other title screen refers to the events which immediately proceed it?
Do you have an explanation for why the wording and nature of the phrase appears to be a direct response to what Shinji said about no one needing him?
Do you have an explanation for why the original placement of the phrase comes directly before a sequence in which Shinji didn't exist, and why that sequence centered around Asuka's bleak existence in that no-Shinji world?

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Re: "I need you" - Who Said It to Who

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:32 am

View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote: However, in case it was as you said, and if it was Asuka imagining herself without Shinji, let me ask you something, please: do you think that, after all they’ve been through, Asuka would consider that living with Shinji would be less miserable than being with Toji or actually any other man? Really, after how pissed off and even hateful Asuka got towards him, and after the bitterness of their relationship? Do you really think all we saw that happened between them was for nothing?

You're cherrypicking.

While we do see their relationship fall apart by the end of the series, the relationship initially develops both and it's incredibly evident that both have genuine affection for each other. Shinji is taken out of his shell and more willing to stand up for himself around Asuka while Asuka is shown becoming progressively more open with her emotions and more willing to show care. Given that we see Asuka visit Shinji to make sure she's ok, try to get him to believe in himself more, and endanger herself to protect him, the idea that Asuka doesn't have genuine affection for Shinji is absurd.

Now off course, this starts to fall apart because well, they don't really love themselves and hence can't properly show love to each other.

Fortunately though, we see them learn to value themselves, hence why both Shinji and Asuka choose life over what essentially amounts to suicide. Coincidentally, the final scene has

A. Asuka showing Shinji affection even when he's hurting her
B. Shinji express his pain rather than try to suppress it

It is impossible to have a relationship without pain, however both show they're willing to deal with pain as they care for each other: That's what we call "Love".

View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote: Do you really think there was no bitterness at all, and that prideful Asuka would be so out-of-character to wish for a future with Shinji so easily?

You're attacking a strawman.

You realize them caring for each other and them having problems in their relationship that they'll need to deal with aren't mutually exclusive concepts?

Thankfully, as Asuka has shown she's willing to show Shinji affection even as he's literally hurting her, they're in a place where they can actually deal with their problems, a position they were not in at the start of the movie.
View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote:If that’s so, let me please give you the one and only "canonical" response to that: How disgusting, as Asuka says in the end.

Actually, the "how disgusting" refers to the masturbation scene. And it can also translate to "I feel sick". That the final line was meant to be interpreted as "I hate you and you're expendable to me" is a belief you've drawn from thin air.

If the scene's real purpose was to show that they just need someone else and don't have a special connection to each other, it would be titled "I need someone", not "I need you"
" Remember Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies." -ANDY

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Re: "I need you" - Who Said It to Who

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:56 am

anonymaus wrote:I skimmed your post and didn't see anything disputing the facts of what I said

If your way to debate with others is to skim their messages,I wonder why you’re on a site like this. In any case, you should learn to read better, if you didn’t see any argument against your opinions. I think I did use some evidences to dispute your hypothesis:

-The fact that ‘I Need You’ isn’t the title of the scene, but of the whole last part of 26’, for example?

-Or maybe the fact that nothing about the live-action implies that Asuka is sending a hidden romantic message to Shinji, as you can see in the scripts of it?

anonymaus wrote:Do you have an explanation for why the wording and nature of the phrase appears to be a direct response to what Shinji said about no one needing him?

You’re the same one who thinks that the radio interview about motherhood that we hear in Misato’s car is actually the explanation for the last scene. I think you like too much to look for vague similarities everywhere and then believe you’ve saved humanity with your genial mind.

In any case, I don’t think it’s necessarily a “response” to him specifically, as you present it. It means that neither Shinji nor Asuka can live alone and that they do need others (each other included, of course). But the way you want to see it is like Asuka becoming a kind angel who will comfort Shinji for eternity. "All I need to be happy is to be with you, my dear Shinji-sama. I love you so much that I'll save your soul no matter what, despite all you did to me in the past", or something like that :facepalm:

anonymaus wrote:Do you have an explanation for why the original placement of the phrase comes directly before a sequence in which Shinji didn't exist, and why that sequence centered around Asuka's bleak existence in that no-Shinji world?

You imply that Asuka’s existence wasn’t bleak when she was with Shinji during the series. Come on, she even attempted to die near the end. If being with Shinji had been such a bliss for her, everything would have been different

Again, you think Asuka was sending messages to Shinji asking him for his warmth, as if being with him wouldn’t be as miserable as with Toji in that live-action.
However, you replied yourself: “why the original placement of the phrase comes directly before a sequence in which Shinji didn't exist?” Maybe because it’s not a direct reference to him, but a general statement about Hedgehog’s Dilemma?


The main problem here is that you give for granted some things that are highly debatable:

1) That Asuka “loves” Shinji fully and passionately.
2) That ‘I Need You’ is the specific name of the scene.
3) That AsuShin is the crux of EoE.

My responses to those opinions are these:

1) I read what you said on the thread “Love in Evangelion”, and honestly, I don’t think we saw the same series. You use expressions like “romantic love” or “I love you” to describe Asuka and Shinji’s relationship, forgetting they are 14 years old broken children seeking validation. I think what Sachi said on that thread is quite spot-on:
SPOILER: Show
Sachi wrote:I think for this question it's important to examine how relative the idea of love even is to Evangelion. Relationships between people are very important in the series, but I'd argue that romantic love has nothing to do with anything in Evangelion.

What we do see in Eva are a bunch of lonely people seeking validation. This is less about love and more about recognizing one's own worth. Shinji, for example, is far too self-absorbed and caught up in his own issues to be able to offer any form of romance to others. This is showcased perfectly by him begging a catatonic Asuka to wake up and help him, ignoring any regard for her wellbeing and refusing to acknowledge that she's got her own obvious problems. And like Asuka points out during Instrumentality, it doesn't matter to him who helps him because any one will do. This isn't love; it's desperation. Shinji just wants anybody to validate his existence. That's why Kaworu became so important to Shinji so quickly. Shinji never loved Kaworu, but he fell in love with the positive attention Kaworu was giving him. In the end, love just isn't an option for Shinji until he grows up.


This is probably the most debated issue of the series, even after 20 years, and there's never been consensus on it. You think there's love, I think otherwise, and Anno left it utterly ambiguous by depicting a conflictive relationship.

2) Since you like official sources so much, let me show you an official source regarding ‘I Need You’, from Evangelion Chronicle:
SPOILER: Show
Image

Image


Can you see the name “I Need You” there? It’s not making reference to the last scene, but to the whole second half of the film. And yes, it’s an official source, not shipper fantasies like yours.

I’ll quote what Reichu said on that reddit thread I shared with you, since maybe you didn’t even read it:
SPOILER: Show
Reichu wrote:Ever see someone refer to the final scene of EoE as "I Need You"? It's a very common error among Anglophone fans, but I'm betting most of you didn't even realize it was an error! "One More Final: I Need You" is the title card of the epilogue and that's why it appears right before it... right? Not so! The confusion is understandable, but what you're seeing is actually the long-delayed second title card. Remember that every episode of NGE has two titles (the first usually in Japanese, and the second always in English), a tradition carried on in the new films. While the "I Need You" card was no doubt given the job of prefacing that scene -- as opposed to an earlier one -- for reasons of maximum thematic resonance, that doesn't make it accurate to call the scene by that name. "I Need You" is the entire second half of EoE (episode 26').


In short, in my opinion, 'I Need You' is far from meaning “Asuka Needs Shinji so badly that she would be miserable without him”, but that “Asuka, Shinji, and all humankind Needs others to live with”. It’s funny, because I think we essentially agree on that, but it’s the way you said it which I can’t agree with.


3) Asuka and Shinji (plus Misato to some extent) are the two main characters of the show, but while their clashes during EoE are a major part of the film, Anno makes it clear that the movie is about the will to live and the pain of being with others, not about how a lovey-dovey couple got together. Asuka and Shinji’s “relationship” was important enough to be in the first and last scenes of the film, for they represent very well the struggle of human interactions. Does that mean, however, that the film only revolves around their immense love? Of course not. Above anything else, the message is clearly about the will to be alive, facing the pain of reality.


***Please, have a look at something I wrote in response to Asuka'sBigBrother in the comment below: the excerpts from two interviews to Kazuya Tsurumaki, the co-director of the End of Evangelion. "A Story of Communication" and "Amusing Himself to Death" are the names. They're "canonical" sources after all, as you like it. Those interviews reinforce my opinion that EoE is not exactly a "love" story, but it's merely about human communication. It's not an AsuShin story, but a film for all of us. Mr. Tsurumaki himself admits the ending is far from the typical happy conclusions everyone likes.
Last edited by CaesarMagnus on Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:23 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: "I need you" - Who Said It to Who

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:33 am

Sorry for the double post, but defending oneself while being outnumbered is quite difficult.

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:You’re cherrypicking.

While we do see their relationship fall apart by the end of the series, the relationship initially develops both and it's incredibly evident that both have genuine affection for each other. Shinji is taken out of his shell and more willing to stand up for himself around Asuka while Asuka is shown becoming progressively more open with her emotions and more willing to show care. Given that we see Asuka visit Shinji to make sure she's ok, try to get him to believe in himself more, and endanger herself to protect him, the idea that Asuka doesn't have genuine affection for Shinji is absurd.


Asuka'sBigBrother, I really don’t want to offend you, but accusing me of “cherrypicking”, when in your fanfiction the very first interaction you think Asuka and Shinji would have after 3I is to walk hand-in-hand “towards the sky, shining blue” or that all Asuka would say is “Baka Shinji” tenderly… please, don’t make me laugh.
Again, I don’t intend to offend you, and you’re free to imagine whatever you want, but if someone is cherrypicking here it's you, thinking that Instrumentality was a bliss for them and that everything will be alright and happy. How absurd.


I think I was very clear when I said that they are indeed attracted to each other, but have an extremely complex relationship. Or I think I also said that they could have helped each other on so many levels due to their shared traumas, but it didn’t happen. I 'll tell you the same as to anonymaus: please read better what others say.

They do care for each other as close friends who are forced to live under the same roof. They’re hormonal teenagers, for Heaven’s sake, of course they’ll have a crush on each other, just like any other teenager would have had. But they’re not normal, that’s the problem. However, throwing the word “Love” without hesitation makes me think you haven’t really understood the nuances of such a confrontational relationship.

Did you truly love someone when you were 14 years old?
And if the answer is "yes", which is unlikely: If you had had deep intimacy issues and a traumatic childhood without affection, would you be able to love so easily, being an immature 14-year old child?

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:Coincidentally, the final scene has

A. Asuka showing Shinji affection even when he's hurting her
B. Shinji express his pain rather than try to suppress it

It is impossible to have a relationship without pain, however both show they're willing to deal with pain as they care for each other.


We can agree here to a certain extent. The message of EoE is to face reality as it is, with all its painful aspects. Shinji and Asuka objectified each other (he lusted over her body, while she used him to release all her self-hatred), but after Instrumentality, there’s hope for them to improve. Nevertheless:
Does it eliminate the pain they’ve caused to each other? No.
Are they forced to engage in a romantic relationship? No.

What we see in the end is the glimmer of hope, as Kaworu and Rei tell Shinji. The possibility of understanding each other and achieving happiness. However, there's a great difference between saying, "Being hurt is inevitable when you interact with others, but the joy and necessity of it makes is worthwhile" and saying, "Consistently toxic and harmful relationships are worth it because of the slim hope you'll get something good out of it.". We do see some growth in the two children, but unless they have changed drastically, they’ll repeat the very same mistakes, ending up becoming toxic to each other once more. It's not as easy as you try to portray it, I'm afraid.

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote: You realize them caring for each other and them having problems in their relationship that they'll need to deal with aren't mutually exclusive concepts?

If by “problems” you mean to masturbate in front of a sedated girl, strangling her, using each other to release their own self-loathing issues, or being incapable of properly communicating, yes, they have a huge problem. You’re trying to portray their relationship as an innocent couple with lover quarrels, but it’s fairly more complex than that.

Furthermore, if your way of justifying the brutal violence (masturbation and strangulation mainly) of Shinji by saying: "Well, they now love each other, so who cares?", proves that either you are a naive optimist, or that your name of "Asuka's Big Brother" doesn't fit you at all. If you really appreciated her as a character, I'm sure you would see Shinji's actions as reprehensable, at least (or nauseating, if you really cared for her). A lot of time will be necessary for them to even restore their friendship, so talking about pure "Love" as you do is completely ridiculous, I think. And no, this is not just my opinion, but it's actually Bagheera's, who's a fervent A/S shipper, but clever enough to realize that they are not star-crossed lovers or that their life post-EoE wouldn't be all roses. He didn't wear shipper goggles like anonymaus and his 4chan companions from /a/, but he admitted that a healthy relationship (as friends or lovers) would require an intense therapy, as he shows in the fanfic Ghosts of Evangelion. I abhor the ship with a passion, but I admit his portrayal of their issues was very believable and real.

As Kendrix also said once very wisely:
SPOILER: Show
Kendrix wrote: Also, her speaking "in the coldest possible voice" simply doesn't support any interpretation where her opinion of him is in any range where she's honestly, truly, just gently stroke his face for the reasons people mostly gently stroke each other's faces.
Her having some of these thoughts in some corner in the bag of her mind? Not that unlikely.
Her intending that as some sort of love confession? Hell no.
As long as his hands are off her neck, come the "You suck" routine. And understandably so, she would have to be mother theresa or something to NOT be smoking pissed at his very existance. Sexual assault, ending the world and all that.
[…]
Asuka would need to have something seriously wrong with her (well, even more than she already has) to feel remotely cuddly about someone who just... you know... over her unconscious body and took his time to squeeze the life out of her upon first sight, regardless of his circumstances.


Asuka'sBigBrother wrote: Actually, the "how disgusting" refers to the masturbation scene. And it can also translate to "I feel sick". That the final line was meant to be interpreted as "I hate you and you're expendable to me" is a belief you've drawn from thin air.
If the scene's real purpose was to show that they just need someone else and don't have a special connection to each other, it would be titled "I need someone", not "I need you"


Hmm… you lack sense of humour, don’t you? I said How disgusting to anonymaus ironically, can’t you tell that? Of course I know it’s referred to the hospital scene, and thus, aimed at Shinji, with the coldest of expressions.

I never said I interpret it as “I hate you”, you're making that up. What I think that is blatantly obvious is that she's not happy with his attitude/actions even after the caress. Seeing her glacial stare, and hearing her cold voice doesn't mean “I love you a lot and forgive you for everything” either. She’s rightfully disgusted and bitter with him, she’s not a saint after all. Anything beyond a exchange of empathy and disgust in that scene is nonsensical.

And yes, I've been studying Japanese for more than 7 years, so you don't need to tell me what 'Kimochi Warui' means, thank you anyway. But given the origins of it, and how Asuka looks at Shinji, it is clearly "How disgusting", in my opinion. It can mean many other things, of course, but in this specific case it's quite evident.

As for ‘I Need You’, please read what I told anonymaus before. It’s NOT the name of the scene, nor it is specifically for Asuka and Shinji, but for all of us. That's Anno's message: not "Asuka loves Shinji", but "We all must endure the suffering of real world, like these two broken children".


Finally, but very interestingly, as a pseudo-canonical evidence to support my position that the ending is not about "love", but "communication", here are a couple of excerpts from two interviews to director Kazuya Tsurumaki, who worked hand-in-hand with Anno on EoE as co-director.
"A Story of Communication":
SPOILER: Show
"-- Was this cinema edition made to match Director Anno's state of mind?
KT - I believe so. There was a time when Hideaki Anno clearly wanted to attempt a more cathartic development.
It didn't end up that way, but I don't think we lied.


-- When you say "lie", do you mean to suddenly conclude with something like "love saved the world"?
KT - Exactly. And we didn't do that with this movie. I feel no dissatisfaction at the ending. I really like it.

-- At the end of this movie, Shinji seems to have reached a sort of settlement regarding troubles of the heart.
KT - Well, my personal view is, "Do we really need to complement these troubles of the heart?" Regardless of whether or not we are complemented, have troubles, or find our answers, interpersonal relations exist, and the world goes on. I thought the last scene meant to say that life goes on, but I could be wrong.

-- In the end, Evangelion was a story about communication -- at least judging from that last scene.
KT - That was the intent from the start of the TV series. That was what I tried to produce from episode 2 onward.

-- Yes, that was the scene where Misato and Shinji talk while measuring distances from each other in Misato's apartment, right? Although they appeared to be getting along fine with each other, Shinji was thinking, "She seems okay, but....", while Misato was thinking "I wonder if he sees through me?"
KT - there were other scenes in episode 2 as well. For instance, when Misato talks to Shinji but doesn't enter his room. Even in episode 3, they are having a casual morning conversation, but are not looking at each other. Like they looking through a slightly opened door, but not connecting. This is the same between Shinji and Rei, and between Shinji and his father. It's no wonder there was a lot of distant, awkward communication. "

----

And he sends a message to people like us:

"-- Finally, do you have some message for the fans?
KT - Don't drag the past around. Find the next thing that interests you.

-- Does that mean not becoming fixated on "Evangelion"?
KT - Yes. It's always better to let something that has finished end. "


"Amusing Himself to Death"
SPOILER: Show
Why does Evangelion end violently, and somewhat unhappily?

KT: People are accustomed to sweet, contrived, happy endings. We wanted to broaden the genre, and show people an ugly, unhappy ending.

It somehow resonates with my opinion that End of Evangelion, despite being hopeful, isn't exactly "happy" as an ending, and that neither Asuka nor Shinji have their happiness guaranteed. But that's reality, isn't it?
Asuka's loyal Knight.

"We all have to find our own answers." - Hideaki Anno

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Re: "I need you" - Who Said It to Who

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:42 am

First, let's dispense with the strawmen:
thinking that Instrumentality was a bliss for them and that everything will be alright and happy. How absurd.

Again, I don’t intend to offend you, and you’re free to imagine whatever you want, but if someone is cherrypicking here it's you, thinking that Instrumentality was a bliss for them and that everything will be alright and happy. How absurd.

they are not star-crossed lovers or that their life post-EoE wouldn't be all roses. He didn't wear shipper goggles like anonymaus and his 4chan companions from /a/, but he admitted that a healthy relationship (as friends or lovers) would require an intense therapy, as he shows in the fanfic Ghosts of Evangelion. I abhor the ship with a passion, but I admit his portrayal of their issues was very believable and real.

You’re trying to portray their relationship as an innocent couple with lover quarrels, but it’s fairly more complex than that.

None of the above address an argument me or any other poster here has made.
Consider this punishment:
Image

I ask that you address arguments people have actually made, rather than ones they haven't.

Asuka'sBigBrother, I really don’t want to offend you, but accusing me of “cherrypicking”, when in your fanfiction the very first interaction you think Asuka and Shinji would have after 3I is to walk hand-in-hand “towards the sky, shining blue” or that all Asuka would say is “Baka Shinji” tenderly… please, don’t make me laugh.


Again, you're cherry-picking. Here's some other parts of that story:
Red met white. Pale sand met velvet sea. Beautiful, and yet, lifeless.

A bit below the sky was a boy. And a bit below the boy was a girl. Between the two were tears.

Her head cocked rightwards onto Shinji's shoulder, headbutting it for attention.

"Baka Shinji," she muttered as his hand, after deliberating with itself on the matter, embraced hers. Awkwardly, Slowly

"Where are we going?" Shinji asked, the baka mortal he was.
Uninterested in ridiculous queries, Asuka grabbed Shinji's right hand with her left one and pulled him away from the beach, "somewhere"
"That's not an answer!"
Asuka just pulled, forcing Shinji along.
"You don't know where we're going, do you?"
Asuka, refusing to humor such accusations, kept pulling.
Shinji sighed and allowed himself to be pulled. Then, he started to lose his balance.


If you'd actually read the story as a whole, rather than cherrpick specific parts, you'd realize my story doesn't depict two perfectly happy characters. It depicts two characters who still have issues, but are willing to try and work them out as they care for each other. The point of the sky glittering with light is to convey a message of hope, not happiness. The red lifeless sea is still in the back, but now that they've gone from being suicidal and nihlistic to finding the will to live, they can start to walk towards the blue sky of the future.

And that's perfectly in line with what we see in the ending. Both decided they want to be alive and both have learned to value themselves. Asuka goes from kicking Shinji onto burnt coffee to showing him affection even when Shinji is hurting her. Shinji goes from trying to suppress his pain by literally killing it to accepting it. Humanity has dealt with the angels and is now in a position where they can focus on rebuilding what is broken rather than trying to stop the world from being broken further.

That's not a happy ending, it's a hopeful one.

And don't you worry, Part 2 started off light, but it's going to end in a really somber way.
View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote:They do care for each other as close friends who are forced to live under the same roof. They’re hormonal teenagers, for Heaven’s sake, of course they’ll have a crush on each other, just like any other teenager would have had.

That's utterly false. Teenagers don't necessarily have romantic feelings towards people they spend time with. There closeness doesn't just comes from hormones. It comes from a deep emotional connection derived from their similar circumstances. It's not a coincidence that we see Shinji become willing to stand up for himself around Asuka and that we see Asuka become softer and more caring around Shinji.


View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote:But they’re not normal, that’s the problem. However, throwing the word “Love” without hesitation makes me think you haven’t really understood the nuances of such a confrontational relationship.
Did you truly love someone when you were 14 years old?

Semantics.

What's evident is that both have shown they're willing to keep caring for each other even though they hurt each other. I call that "love". You can call it "a crush", that doesn't change that both care for each other. Whether or not you think the "love" here is strong enough or deep enough for you to use that word is just a semantic gripe.

If you had had deep intimacy issues and a traumatic childhood without affection, would you be able to love so easily, being an immature 14-year old child?

Easily? I don't think being pushed to the brink of suicide is "easy".

so talking about pure "Love" as you do is completely ridiculous

"Pure love" doesn't exist. "Pure love" is instrumentality. "Pure love" is what Shinji triumphatically rejected in the story's climax. Shinji doesn't have "pure love" for Asuka. Nor does he need to, that's the point.
Does it eliminate the pain they’ve caused to each other? No.

Doesn't address anything I've argued.

Are they forced to engage in a romantic relationship? No.

You're right they aren't. The ending has them choosing to be beside each other. They chose the immense emotional baggage they have with each other over not being beside each other.
"Consistently toxic and harmful relationships are worth it because of the slim hope you'll get something good out of it.".

Again, cherrypicking. It wasn't consistently toxic and harmful. In fact for a substantial part of the series they were both evidently happier around each other than they were without each other.

The final scene has Asuka's affection helping Shinji open up rather than suppress his pain. The final scene has Shinji prompting Asuka to show compassion.

That this hope is "slim" is another assumption you're drawing from thin air. Why would it be slim? By the end of EOE, both Shinji and Asuka have gone through incredibly traumatic childhoods, and insanely difficult mental strains coming out far better then they were before they went through immense hardship.

Your assumption that they can't handle the emotional baggage of the past is verifiably false. If that was really the case, Shinji and Asuka wouldn't have come back from instrumentality.

What was it your writer friend said?
"-- Finally, do you have some message for the fans?
KT - Don't drag the past around. Find the next thing that interests you.

-- At the end of this movie, Shinji seems to have reached a sort of settlement regarding troubles of the heart.
KT - Well, my personal view is, "Do we really need to complement these troubles of the heart?" Regardless of whether or not we are complemented, have troubles, or find our answers, interpersonal relations exist, and the world goes on. I thought the last scene meant to say that life goes on, but I could be wrong.


We do see some growth in the two children, but unless they have changed drastically


It's a good thing they have changed drastically.

Shinji went from being a nihilistic suppressive loner to saving the entire world from collective suicide and opening himself up to another person

Asuka went from literally attempting suicide to defiantly declaring she didn't want to die and fighting against what was essentially forced suicide. Asuka went from kicking a dude asking for help onto burnt coffee to caressing the face of a dude trying to kill her.

That's massive character development which also happens to directly address the reasons their relationship fell part in the first place:
Now off course, this starts to fall apart because well, they don't really love themselves and hence can't properly show love to each other.

Fortunately though, we see them learn to value themselves, hence why both Shinji and Asuka choose life over what essentially amounts to suicide. Coincidentally, the final scene has

A. Asuka showing Shinji affection even when he's hurting her
B. Shinji express his pain rather than try to suppress it

It is impossible to have a relationship without pain, however both show they're willing to deal with pain as they care for each other: That's what I call "Love".


They've already done a great deal addressing the problems, so the natural logical progression here would be that they continued to resolve their problems. Not that they'd decide to give up mid-way deciding that it's not worth it. The entire story of NGE revolves around the idea that love is worth pain.

This isn't about me "shipping" them. I have no interest in shipping which remains a practice I am adamantly opposed to.

This is about me deriving logical conclusions based on what we see in the narrative. I believe that Asuka and Shinji will continue to work out their problems as the story shows us Asuka and Shinji working out their problems.

As for ‘I Need You’, please read what I told anonymaus before. It’s NOT the name of the scene,
It applying to the entire second half doesn't remotely diminish my argument.
nor it is specifically for Asuka and Shinji, but for all of us. That's Anno's message: not "Asuka loves Shinji", but "We all must endure the suffering of real world, like these two broken children".


That's just an interpretation which I disagree with. It's for both. Asuka and Shinji are narrative tools for Eva's overarching message:
"Love is worth the risk of pain". "I need you" both applies to Asuka and Shinji, and to humanity as a whole who's been given the ability to choose pain over a lack of love. And it's supported by what we see. Shinji needed Asuka to stop suppressing himself, Asuka needed Shinji to learn how to show others affection. Both have developed and improved as characters directly due to the influence of each other. In fact, they improved and developed as characters as a result of the pain they caused each other.
Finally, but very interestingly, as a pseudo-canonical evidence to support my position that the ending is not about "love", but "communication", here are a couple of excerpts from two interviews to director Kazuya Tsurumaki, who worked hand-in-hand with Anno on EoE as co-director.
"A Story of Communication":

Yeah, none of your quotes actually contradict anything I've said. EVA does have a "somewhat unhappy" ending given we're still in a wrecked and nearly ruined planet with a broken society. However, that doesn't preclude EVA's ending from being hopeful or things eventually getting better. If the narrative progresses logically, things should get better. That's, by definition, a hopeful ending.
" Remember Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies." -ANDY

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Re: "I need you" - Who Said It to Who

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:55 am

I think we two agree on almost everything, Asuka’sBigBrother. At least on the essential. Maybe we use different semantics or see things on a subtly different way (you believe in hope, while I’m rather sceptical). But, in any case, many of our ideas seem to be coincidental.

I apologize if I used a harsh language against you or if I offended you with my previous comment. Perhaps the discussion escalated too much in tension, but it had actually no reason at all, since we can actually agree on many aspects.

Nevertheless, there are a few things I would like to respond, if you allow me.

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote: None of the above address an argument me or any other poster here has made

Those were also addressed at anonymaus and his arguments of them having a somewhat “romantic” relationship in the end.

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote: If you'd actually read the story as a whole, rather than cherrpick specific parts, you'd realize my story doesn't depict two perfectly happy characters. It depicts two characters who still have issues, but are willing to try and work them out as they care for each other.
[…]
The red lifeless sea is still in the back, but now that they've gone from being suicidal and nihlistic to finding the will to live, they can start to walk towards the blue sky of the future.
[…]
That's not a happy ending, it's a hopeful one.

I didn’t cherrypick anything, but just read what you wrote, and it was certainly OOC and too fast, in my opinion (well, and in the opinion of those who gave you feedback too). It looked like a mixture between the last scenes of Rebuild 3.0 and a Hollywood film, with some reminiscences of EoE, but it’s far from what Asuka and Shinji would really behave, given what happened. “Walking hand-in-hand” or Asuka “having her head on Shinji’s shoulder” are way too much. But anyway, it’s your story, so do as you will.

(If you let me give you a piece of advice: I really doubt there would be any kind of physical interaction at all, and even less coming from Shinji’s part “embracing her hand”. She’s disgusted at Shinji’s actions, and he would feel really guilty and ashamed having to face Asuka in person after all that happened. Plus, they already had several intimacy issues from the beginning, so any kind of romantic contact seems to be OOC to me, personally)

As for hope/happiness, you know hope is like a dream, right? It’s like “going to Heaven” in Christian culture. That doesn’t mean you’ll ever go there or that it will save you from misery in life. EoE is hopeful, absolutely, but if we take Anno as an example, he has had more depressions since 1997; does that mean he hasn’t learnt the message of EoE? No; it just means that despite having hope, one can be miserable.

I know you wanted to portray that dichotomy of hope and happiness in your story, but you went way too fast, and it broke the atmosphere of the Last Scene of EoE. In fact, if you analyze it, while it shows a glimmer of hope, what we see are two broken children with empty eyes, on a devastated beach, and the very last sentence of the film is “How disgusting”. Hope is there, but maybe it’s just an illusion…

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote: That's utterly false. Teenagers don't necessarily have romantic feelings towards people they spend time with. There closeness doesn't just comes from hormones. It comes from a deep emotional connection derived from their similar circumstances. It's not a coincidence that we see Shinji become willing to stand up for himself around Asuka and that we see Asuka become softer and more caring around Shinji.

Maybe you’re reading too much on their interactions during the series. A deep connection? If it was so deep, they could have understood each other fairly better during NGE; but it didn’t happen. Asuka did see Shinji as a kindred-soul who could help her, while Shinji saw Asuka’s vulnerable side (when he sees her sleeping and shedding a tear calling for her “Mama”); but I don’t think it was “deep” whatsoever. They are two teenagers in the hormonal stage, looking for affection/validation from actually anyone (for example, Shinji and Kaworu, although it just lasts one episode / or Asuka's unsuccesful attempts with Kaji). “Anyone will do. You don’t care who it is! So now you come running to me", as Asuka says very accurately in the Kithen Scene.

These are two teenagers who are told to live together, who crave affection desperately and show curiosity for the opposite gender. It’s as deep as that. If NERV had decided it was better to have them living separatedly, that would have been the end of the adventure for them. Neither they are meant for each other, nor having shared traumas will guarantee them to properly fall in love. This is not Romeo & Juliet, I'm afraid, and I think we can agree on that, can't we?

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote: The ending has them choosing to be beside each other. They chose the immense emotional baggage they have with each other over not being beside each other.

That’s your personal view of it, which is very debatable. There have been countless discussions here and on many other sites trying to explain it. We don’t know how or why Asuka came back to reality. They chose to live life, but arguing that they specifically left Instrumentality to be with each other is merely one hypothesis among many others.

Asuka was lying next to him, indeed; but the scene is so ambiguous, and, to a certain point, contradictory, that it's too exaggerated to say they definitely chose to be with each other. Moreover, sometime ago I found a maginificent video-analysis that studies how the usage of camera proves us they're still very distant from each other; I really suggest you to watch it, even if it's not entirely related to our discussion, but just as an interesting curiosity:
Rebuild of The End of Evangelion and Hideaki Anno's Isolating Style.

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote: It wasn't consistently toxic and harmful. In fact for a substantial part of the series they were both evidently happier around each other than they were without each other.

The final scene has Asuka's affection helping Shinji open up rather than suppress his pain. The final scene has Shinji prompting Asuka to show compassion.

The way you portray their problems looks to me like you are diminishing the toxicity of them and comparing them to mere a lover’s quarrel; but, far from that, there were two strangulations, an almost-violation in the hospital, and lots of verbal/emotional “violence”, sort to call it.

The problem here is that you compare the first half of the series to the rest. Of course they had a “happy” relationship during the Action Arc, since it was kind of a shounen-mecha anime, with action, comedy and some fanservice. But that was not Evangelion, as we saw later.

During that “substantial part” of the series, as you called it, Asuka is somehow portrayed as a tsundere, having a funny “romance” with Shinji, comparable to Ash and Misty of Pokémon. But, again, that wasn’t Evangelion: neither Asuka is a tsundere (not as we know them, being cutely in love with the clueless MC) nor was there anything else but teenager hormones and lots of misunderstandings.

Even the failed-kiss, which could be regarded as one of the last “happy” moments between them, ended up disastrously, and was a major aspect of Asuka’s eventual downfall.

So, yes, in my opinion, during the series they were toxic to each other, being utterly dysfunctional. You may think they were fine or that it wasn’t so grave, and I respect it. What we agree with here is that it’s utterly pointless to call them a “couple” during the series and that it’s only after EoE that they manage to understand each other better, don’t we?


As for the ending, with Asuka “helping” Shinji to release his pain, etc., again, that’s your interpretation of it. Shinji might have been alone on that beach for some days/weeks, becoming paranoiac. Of course he would cry after he realizes he’s actually in real world. Not because of Asuka, but because he’s alive again.

As for Shinji “prompting Asuka to show compassion”, that’s a curious way to describe the strangulation. He doesn’t prompt her to do anything; he’s just trying to kill her and/or feel her existence (which doesn’t mean that he wasn’t about to crush her neck), and it’s Asuka who lets him know that she know understands his pain, as well as hers. That’s how I interpret it.

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote: That this hope is "slim" is another assumption you're drawing from thin air. Why would it be slim? By the end of EOE, both Shinji and Asuka have gone through incredibly traumatic childhoods, and insanely difficult mental strains coming out far better then they were before they went through immense hardship.

[…]
It's a good thing they have changed drastically.

Shinji went from being a nihilistic suppressive loner to saving the entire world from collective suicide and opening himself up to another person

Asuka went from literally attempting suicide to defiantly declaring she didn't want to die and fighting against what was essentially forced suicide. Asuka went from kicking a dude asking for help onto burnt coffee to caressing the face of a dude trying to kill her.


Shinji crying could be seen as character growth, or on the opposite, as him behaving like a little kid, once more. Asuka had exactly the same reasons as him to cry, but she didn’t. And yet, he, a selfish child, is there, crying after having tried to strangle her. I would argue that the character growth of Shinji is him accepting to live with others and leave Instrumentality; but crying can hardly be seen as “growth” in this case. I can see your point of him releasing his pain, though; I just think a bit differently.

As I told jcmoorehead on another topic:
I don't blame him for crying after all he went through. But, seeing it from Asuka's POV, he was there, like with the kiss, completely passive. She took the initiative (with the kiss, and on the beach caressing him) to reach out to him, and all she received was nothing: Shinji standing there like a statue; and Shinji curling up and crying. He didn't show her any kind of affection or support; it was all just "Me, me and only me". That would explain why Asuka feels so bitter, very rightfully.

As for why hope is slim, I said above that hope is usually slim, like an illusion you want to believe. Also, I’m not sure they have changed that drastically; sure, Asuka shows compassion to Shinji, which was completely new for her; but a few seconds later, she’s back to her “abusive” self, calling him disgusting with one of the coldest expressions we see in her. As for Shinji, while he “bravely” decides to leave Instrumentality and face reality, he seems to crumble down, showing he’s still a weak child.

There’s a subtle growth, but they haven’t changed that much. That’s an optimistic way of seeing it, which I don’t agree with at all, but of course, it’s a legit interpretation, as any other.

This is a funny interpretation of the scene I read some time ago. I'm not sure if it was here or in another site, but I saved it in my collection of interpretations:
SPOILER: Show
Shinji strangling Asuka is simple enough. He told Rei, Kaworu, and Yui that he was ready to go back to reality, where he would have to deal with A.T. Fields making interaction difficult. He admitted that it would be painful, and he would go through the same things over and over again, but he said he was ready for it. Then he sees the first other person he's seen since before Instrumentality, and he realizes, maybe he's not strong enough, maybe he wants to go back to his false reality. Even if he can't go back to Instrumentality, he can at least kill her and be alone. It's kind of like if I say, "Alright, I'll ride the roller coaster." "You sure? It's pretty steep." "I know. But I'm brave enough." "Alright." Then I get in, buckle up, and the ride is about to start. "Wait! Wait! I can't do it, I lied! Get me out of here!"


Asuka'sBigBrother wrote: They've already done a great deal addressing the problems, so the natural logical progression here would be that they continued to resolve their problems. Not that they'd decide to give up mid-way deciding that it's not worth it. The entire story of NGE revolves around the idea that love is worth pain.

Again, it’s a bit optimistic to say that the “natural progression” for them is to achieve happiness. They’re in a better place now, as you said and I agree, but again, taking Anno’s example, who says Shinji won’t fall into a suicidal depression or that Asuka won’t become a superficial woman like Misato, who uses men for her own comfort?

One thing that should be clear is that hope doesn’t guarantee happiness, and by the interactions we see in the Last Scene, it’s utterly impossible to know what will happen next. That’s why there are so many different interpretations and fanfics with opposed views of their future (together, separated, happy, tragic, etc.).

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote: That's just an interpretation which I disagree with. It's for both. Asuka and Shinji are narrative tools for Eva's overarching message:
"Love is worth the risk of pain". "I need you" both applies to Asuka and Shinji, and to humanity as a whole who's been given the ability to choose pain over a lack of love. And it's supported by what we see. Shinji needed Asuka to stop suppressing himself, Asuka needed Shinji to learn how to show others affection. Both have developed and improved as characters directly due to the influence of each other. In fact, they improved and developed as characters as a result of the pain they caused each other.


Yes, it’s just my interpretation, like you have yours. And, as for now, without any official full explanation of those details, both of us can be right.
I disagree with that idea of Asuka needing Shinji to show affection to others, or vice versa. What we see during the series/film is not a “therapy of pain”, but the “pain of interactions”. Maybe you’re reading too much into their relationship, or I’m just a cynic ignorant, but I wouldn’t say that their clashes developed them so much. In fact, they both went pretty much suicidal near the end (not just because of the pain caused by each other, but because of many other factors, of course).

In my opinion, they remained selfish until the very end: Shinji, who never showed much regard for Asuka apart from finding her “hot” and somehow "amiable", asked her to help him, and when he was denied that, he killed her in Pre-Instrumentality; while Asuka, having treated Shinji like rubbish, blamed him for not “holding her” and not paying attention to her. Honestly, I don’t think their relationship was as deep and benefitial as you see it, but it's just a difference of interpretation.
Last edited by CaesarMagnus on Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: "I need you" - Who Said It to Who

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:00 am

I wanted to add a couple of interesting quotes regarding these issues, but I was afraid of making my previous comment way too long.

I've always liked these two explanations of Asuka and Shinji during the series and in the end. Was there "love"? Was Asuka "bitter" in the end?
Since you've been around here for some time, you must know these users already, since they're good connoisseurs of the series and details of it.
Here they are:

Alaska Slim wrote:Love? I wouldn't say he showed he "loved" her, nigh-ever. Love isn't just something you give lip service to whenever you feel lonely or afraid, it's an experience that you share and affirm over time.

Hell, forget "love", I can't recall even a single instance of Shinji committing a selfless act that wasn't directly coming out of the heat of battle. He cleans and cooks, but that's mere conditioning, not something he does out of true consideration for others.

Asuka on the other hand thanks him in her weird way for saving her when at the Springs, she skews telling him of Touji's appointment as a pilot, and when presented with a chance to bury Hikari's infatuation with Touji and getting the class rep to keel to her own tastes, she instead reassures the girl that the dolt has no interest in Rei and that's okay to go after him. She even (tries) to come see Shinji in the Hospital.

The one time Shinji returned that last favor, it wasn't even for her sake, it was his own.

As to "the other way around"; Asuka knew all too well who Shinji was, she was attached to him because she realized he shared in a pain similar to her own, and that he was a fantastic Eva pilot. She hated him because being a "Fantastic Eva pilot" didn't come with the strength of will and character she was expecting. He was completely infantile, lower than her, yet somehow still better.


Bagheera wrote:How could she not be bitter? Even the most charitable view of her has to acknowledge that she has ample reason. To hell with her final words, she was raped, abandoned, cast aside, and ultimately dismembered while everyone's hero Shinji did absolutely nothing to save her. And let's not forget he then went the extra mile and masturbated over her comatose body. Yes, she made things worse for herself. Yes, there was nothing he could really do. But no bitterness at all?

Come now. She's a girl, a human being, not a saint. She'd have to feel bitter after all that. Instrumentality might give her the chance to put it in perspective and give him a second chance, but anything beyond that just ignores the show's events and what they mean to her.

At best, she can blame Shinji for not helping her fight the harpies sooner. But listen to her lines over the comm system when she is. She doesn't sound bitter. She sounds angry, yes, but everything we know about Asuka gives her reason to sound angry. Indeed, whenever she is angry at Shinji, it's usually not for the reason she says it is. When they kiss, and she subsequently runs to the bathroom, she's not angry because she kissed him, she's angry because Shinji stood limp and didn't even try to embrace her.

His behavior reflects guilt and teenage hormones, not love. He never showed much regard for her at all over the course of the series, and that holds true up to the final scene of the show.

He still wasn't there for her. He's the one who got better sync scores than she did. He's the one whose Eva responded to him. He's the one who didn't comfort her after Arael tore apart her mind. He's the one who disgraced her in the hospital room. He's the one who didn't rescue her when the Eva series tore her apart. He's the one who let her mama die.

But really, none of that's the important part. He's also the one who didn't pay attention to her. He's the one who didn't respond to her kiss. He's the one who wouldn't hold her. He's the one who didn't understand what she was saying to him. He's the one who gave up!

None of this is rational, or fair, but that's not the point. It's still true, and it's how hatred works.

If Instrumentality is a panacea the whole point about opening up to others, about life being pain but still worth living, goes right out the window. Asuka proves that that's not how it worked with her final words.
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"We all have to find our own answers." - Hideaki Anno


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