Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Cybermat47 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:55 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I've finally settled on a way to describe Episode VIII.

It's like someone took the worst Star Wars movie ever made and the greatest Star Wars movie ever made and cut them into a single film.


Yeah, I have to agree with that.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:06 am

I'm happy that for the first time in my life they made a good Star Wars movie. It's flawed for sure and so much of the "we're destroying the old ways to make room for the new" reads less as natural storytelling to me and more as Disney needs a fresh slate if they're gonna make one to two of these a year for the rest of time but I enjoyed myself. Loved the twists and all in a movie that while not deserving of the hype (or the mass negativity, there are petitions with tens of thousands of signatures from fanboys trying to strike this movie from the official canon) it's still a legitimately good movie.

There hasn't been an honest good Star Wars movie since 1983.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Cybermat47 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:16 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:(or the mass negativity, there are petitions with tens of thousands of signatures from fanboys trying to strike this movie from the official canon)


Wait, seriously?

They do realise that everything they want is in the Legends novels, right? The Thrawn Trilogy, the Yuuzhan Vong War, the 2nd Galactic Civil War, Mara Jade Skywalker, Luke’s successful Jedi Order, Ben Skywalker, Jaina, Jacen, and Anakin Solo... it’s all out there still.

We already got the happy ending for the Solos and Skywalkers (excluding Chewbacca’s death and Jaina having to kill Jacen after he became Darth Caedus and killed Mara). It’s time for everything to go horribly wrong for them.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Chuckman » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:26 am

Dorks can’t think for themselves so they need a central authority to tell them their fiction “counts”.
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:46 am

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:Wait, seriously?

They do realise that everything they want is in the Legends novels, right? The Thrawn Trilogy, the Yuuzhan Vong War, the 2nd Galactic Civil War, Mara Jade Skywalker, Luke’s successful Jedi Order, Ben Skywalker, Jaina, Jacen, and Anakin Solo... it’s all out there still.

We already got the happy ending for the Solos and Skywalkers (excluding Chewbacca’s death and Jaina having to kill Jacen after he became Darth Caedus and killed Mara). It’s time for everything to go horribly wrong for them.

When I first read the Thrawn Trilogy when I was like 7 or 8 (after TPM came out), I always thought that if they did a sequel, Ep VII: Heir to the Empire, Ep VIII: Dark Force Rising, and Ep IX: The Last Command sounded like great movie titles.

Having finally seen the movie, after having read the spoilers, honestly, TLJ wasn't awful, its just falling in line with every other action/sci-fi, which makes it look and feel like the ST jj-verse, which is painful to say, but it's true.

The effects were top notch (and I'd expect nothing less), though the story was a bit ridiculous.
SPOILER: Show
being able to track ships in hyperspace? Don't they use hyperspace lanes, which limit where ships can travel safely?
And don't they have interdiction for that kind of thing anyway? Plus the mutiny was retarded, I like Poe, but the boy pulled some STD shit, and gets stunned before anything serious happens. Then there's the whole hyperspace ramming bit. Seems too deus ex machina to have not been used long before this, and it would be assumed there are safeguard against this.

But my biggest issue with the new trilogy, and I'm fairly sure someone else said it already, that it completely negates the valiant fight from the OT and wipes out any progress they'd made in the past, and from what I understand, the New Republic abolished their military after trusting the Empire would not bother them again? It's just a bit too convoluted that after what the Empire did, they wouldn't resist in some fashion. Literally, Leia breaking off and forming her own militia is exactly the reason the Republic needs a military.

Obviously it was nice that the movie didn't remake ESB, but Leia somehow using the force randomly, even though it appears she wasn't trained, seems a bit farfetched. And personally, it would have been nice if they had changed the ending where Luke survived and Leia died (after fisher's death), they could have had former rebel Luke Skywalker take command of the resistance and fight the First Order to truly rectify what he views as his mistake.

I see JJ using CGI just because it has, and it can to recreate er likeness, and voice clips to recreate an approximation of her voice.


TL;DR - The movie, while good to watch has a lot of things in it that are convoluted and too ridiculous to understand.

Chuckman, I agree with how you described the movie. Honestly the only way to explain it.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:19 pm

I've seen the movie three times so far, and I love it more and more each time with the exception of
SPOILER: Show
the Finn/Rose subplot on Canto Bight. I see what they were going for and the thematic payoff with the children at the end was cute, but the execution leaves something to be desired and clashes with the pacing of the other three plots. There hadnto be a better way to do that.


What I find really surprising is how many parallels this movie has to 3.0.
SPOILER: Show
Replace the Resistance with Wille, Snoke with Seele, and split Shinji's arc into four characters: Rey (searching for hope, truth and belonging), Finn (running away and trying to help a friend), Poe (trying to help but making things worse because he's acting on assumptions and partial information) and Luke (regret and redemption for a mistake that had lasting consequences).
It's REALLY eerie. Might also explain the reception.

I also think this movie starts to show the strain of the 'everything is canon' approach as there's a lot of important stuff in the books and supplementary material.
SPOILER: Show
The circumstances of the Republic allowing it to be taken down so easily, the FO conquering systems because they're just surrendering, and there's some nuggets of a possible origin for Snoke. There's even a mention of the Hyperspace Tracker in Rogue One as in-development
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:37 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:I also think this movie starts to show the strain of the 'everything is canon' approach as there's a lot of important stuff in the books and supplementary material.
SPOILER: Show
The circumstances of the Republic allowing it to be taken down so easily, the FO conquering systems because they're just surrendering, and there's some nuggets of a possible origin for Snoke. There's even a mention of the Hyperspace Tracker in Rogue One as in-development

Rogue One was so poorly paced, there could have been a hundred things I missed because I was so bored and half asleep.

As to the "everything is canon" approach...
SPOILER: Show
It's nice that they give us all this in supplementary materials (which when purchased adds to Disney's hefty bottom line), but they're writing the First Order like the most "Space Nazi" Nazis that have ever Space Nazied. Systems rolling over like that, the literal "Zeig Heil" gesture in TFA. Hux being the crazy Hitler-like guy and his general air of "I will rule everything" and "Aryan" looks. The uniforms ask look far more Nazi-like than the Empire's, which seemed impossible, but there we have it.

It would be nice if Hollywood could get away from making all badguys a redress of the Nazis. We know the Nazis are horrible assholes, we've seen all the WWII movies and documentaries on the subject. But it's actually getting old, and Hollywood needs to let go of its Nazi fetish.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Chuckman » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:50 pm

The general theme of TLJ is that the battle against evil never reaches and endpoint where everything is okay forever. Whatever else it may be trying to do with making Star Wars more of a franchise over a self contained saga, it’s main goal is to demythologize the whole.

Edit:

I think, also, that TLJ decided to say "There were good ideas in the prequels, they were just terribly and lazily explored. Let's pretend that good prequels exist, and build off these imaginary movies."

SPOILER: Show
I feel like that's where there were going with those ancient Jedi tomes. We'll probably learn that the Prequel-Era Jedi with their "attachments" stuff are responsible for the constant rise of the Sith by imbalancing the Force. Yoda's cameo in TLJ points to the new series eschewing Lucas' idiot "balance means only the light side is in power" equation in favor of a "know your shadow side or it will rule you".

Luke's absolute abhorrence and fear of the dark side is clearly the weakness that led to the fall of his temple. The Jedi can't utterly reject the dark side or the dark side will find expression in people like the Sith, Snoke, Kylo, and so on.

Consider: The prequel Jedi were weak because their vision of the Jedi Order was dominated by a reaction to the dark side; attachments bad, etc.

Luke's failure was due to his reaction to the dark side in his apprentice.

To balance the force, stop fearing the dark side and learn to balance it. Fear leads to hate, etc.
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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:33 am

There's also something I've been meaning to ask...
SPOILER: Show
How is it that Snoke isn't considered a Sith? We saw him use force lightning and strangulation on Kylo Ren. And he's clearly aligned to the dark side of the force. And yet,
he and Kylo are not strictly categorized as Sith, not even bearing the title of Darth. And I forgot to mention that Snoke doesn't even have a lightsaber like Sidious did. Why is that? How is it that these two aren't considered Sith? Are they not true Sith or something?
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Postby Cybermat47 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:29 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I think, also, that TLJ decided to say "There were good ideas in the prequels, they were just terribly and lazily explored. Let's pretend that good prequels exist, and build off these imaginary movies."


Thankfully we don’t have to rely on imaginary movies - seasons 3-6 of The Clone Wars have great stories that actually make Anakin’s turn to the dark side, Order 66, and the failure of the Jedi more believable.

True, TCW is a kid’s show, but I think that the writers forgot that they were supposed to be making a kid’s show, given that later seasons have suicide, implied rape, mass murder of civilians, a lot of torture, mass fratricide, neck breaking, spine snapping, and politics.

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:There's also something I've been meaning to ask...
SPOILER: Show
How is it that Snoke isn't considered a Sith? We saw him use force lightning and strangulation on Kylo Ren. And he's clearly aligned to the dark side of the force. And yet,
he and Kylo are not strictly categorized as Sith, not even bearing the title of Darth. And I forgot to mention that Snoke doesn't even have a lightsaber like Sidious did. Why is that? How is it that these two aren't considered Sith? Are they not true Sith or something?


There have been other Dark Side force wielders in the new canon, such as the Nightsisters. They have their own ways of using the dark side, and have been both allies and enemies of the Sith. There was also the Sith-worshipping cult known as the Acolytes of the Beyond, which had no Force-sensitives among them, and the Inquisitorius, who were former Jedi who served the Sith. They were solely combat-based, with none of the higher motives of the Sith.

Based on that, I’d say that what sets the Knights of Ren apart from the Sith is their beliefs in how to achieve their goals and propogate themselves. Darth Bane, who reorganised the Sith with his rule of two, believed that the Sith Master should seek out the most powerful individual that they could convert into a Sith. We see this when Sidious discards Maul and Dooku in favour of Vader when he proved his power, who he then attempted to replace with Luke.

SPOILER: Show
Snoke, on the other hand, doesn’t even try to convert Rey, despite her power, vulnerability, and lack of proper training, even though that is the exact reason Sidious wanted to convert Luke. He simply mindrapes her and orders her death. She’s already oroven herself to be capable of beating Kylo, despite his training and her lack of it. It’s a small but interesting difference.


We also saw multiple Knights of Ren in the “forceback” scene in TFA, so it seems pretty unlikely that they have the Sith’s rule of two.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:23 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:There's also something I've been meaning to ask...
SPOILER: Show
How is it that Snoke isn't considered a Sith? We saw him use force lightning and strangulation on Kylo Ren. And he's clearly aligned to the dark side of the force. And yet,
he and Kylo are not strictly categorized as Sith, not even bearing the title of Darth. And I forgot to mention that Snoke doesn't even have a lightsaber like Sidious did. Why is that? How is it that these two aren't considered Sith? Are they not true Sith or something?

Because they are the Alt-Sith, and do not like The Establishment's old ways of raking their Comrades.

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:29 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:There's also something I've been meaning to ask...
SPOILER: Show
How is it that Snoke isn't considered a Sith? We saw him use force lightning and strangulation on Kylo Ren. And he's clearly aligned to the dark side of the force. And yet,
he and Kylo are not strictly categorized as Sith, not even bearing the title of Darth. And I forgot to mention that Snoke doesn't even have a lightsaber like Sidious did. Why is that? How is it that these two aren't considered Sith? Are they not true Sith or something?


SPOILER: Show
”Sith” is not generic term for any dark side Force user, it refers to members of a specific order/sect. All Catholics are Christian but not all Christians are Catholic kind of thing. The same is technically true of Jedi.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby silvermoonlight » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:09 pm

Okay I just got back from this film and this will be spoiler free all I will say is I really enjoyed it but I do understand why some wouldn't in terms of Luke's ending and I did hear about the whiny fanboy petition and I agree with you guys they should be reading the novels or comics because they do give him a better ending than in this movie.
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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:22 pm

Just got back from a second viewing. My lurking feelings from a week earlier are confirmed: The film is kind of a hot mess.

Chuckman wrote:It's like someone took the worst Star Wars movie ever made and the greatest Star Wars movie ever made and cut them into a single film.


Basically this. It's got so many good ideas, but it spreads them so thin over the long runtime that it doesn't give any of those ideas enough depth to really resonate. It really needed a second writer on board to help shape and focus the story.

SPOILER: Show
Also, if you're going to kill off Luke, I want to have fucking tears in my eyes. Having a general feeling of "Huh? What?" When he disappears off that ledge is extremely anticlimactic and problematic.
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Postby Chuckman » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:03 pm

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Luke becoming one with the Force is the perfect ending for him, but the execution was weak.
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Postby Cybermat47 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:23 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:
SPOILER: Show
Luke becoming one with the Force is the perfect ending for him, but the execution was weak.


Agreed. I didn’t even know what was happening for a few seconds. When I realised, I was more confused than anything else.

But, in all fairness, they did establish that it would happen earlier on.

SPOILER: Show
When Kylo first starts seeing Rey, he says that she can’t be the one doing it - the strain would kill her.
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Postby Chuckman » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:17 pm

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:Agreed. I didn’t even know what was happening for a few seconds. When I realised, I was more confused than anything else.

But, in all fairness, they did establish that it would happen earlier on.

SPOILER: Show
When Kylo first starts seeing Rey, he says that she can’t be the one doing it - the strain would kill her.


SPOILER: Show
This is why we needed *some* explanation of why Snoke was so powerful. How was he casually able to do something that killed Luke?

JJ Abrams does on occasion produce some good stuff but his storytelling style is frustrating and annoying. I hope that after this trilogy is done and Rian Johnson gets his own, Disney lets the franchise move away from JJ as a house style.

I’m annoyed, really, that he made Star Trek and Star Wars look the same. He does make good looking movies but he has a tendency to go for visuals for visuals sake. Old Trek would at least offer a two line technobabble about how the supernova collapser thing works, but JJ only cares about having a really big red ball in the movie because he thinks it looks cool. (He actually said that)

Also something JJTrek and now JJWars have in common is a total lack of understanding of the scale of space that’s really jarring and actively hurts the films.
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Postby MuscleRobo » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:24 pm

My one word review: Bodhidharma

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:19 pm

I saw the movie a second time. The good parts still feel good, and there's a lot of good there, but the movie also feels like it's constantly interrupting itself to convey those good parts. In other words, the pacing is awful. Total crap. Luke's Survival Skills Scene along with the last parts of the Free The Space Horses Scene could have (and should have) been cut entirely and the audience would have missed nothing. There are other examples of this awful pacing, but those two are the ones that stick out the most in my head.

Also, I am now dubbing the BB unit that the First Order had "BB-Hate," because I can and it gives me joy.

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Postby Chuckman » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:44 am

The big flaw in the film was

SPOILER: Show
The slow-speed chase concept. It would work on its own, in a movie solely focused on it, but they wanted to have a bunch of asides and have this lengthy training sequence set opposite the chase. Logically, Rey's time with Luke must have been longer than the actual chase took; presumably the resistance fleet was found near the end of the pursuit when hyperspace no longer became an option. So she "caught up" to the more current events of the chase, but the film didn't convey this pacing very well at all.

I smell rewrites. I think the chase was intended to be less tense (more of a "they keep finding us" thing than "we'll last longer if we go full on the throttle instead of going to hyperspace" thing) with the First Order constantly catching up to Leia's ships as they bounce from place looking for allies. It feels like they had two competing script concepts here and they decided to merge them, creating a whole host of new problems that butted up against the production schedule for the movie, which I would presume to be less than lenient. The horse racing planet and some of the other plot elements feel like they're there to give some of the lesser used characters something to do while the main action unfolds.
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