Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Chuckman » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:41 am

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:That not though why I hate the idea of Rey showing compassion to Kylo I hate it because its a forced love interest perspective like women in movies can not go with out a love interest its like they can't just be friends with guys and I'm not saying I hate romance I do enjoy it but in Hollywood its in almost all movies and its annoying as hell.

The Last Jedi also feeds in to abusive love trope that abusive assholes like Kylo just need love to fix them which I hate and its a very dangerous message to send. Its the 90's beauty and the beast cartoon all over again and young men and women need to stop being fed this toxic message period as it causes real issues in the outside world and male and female characters who act this way should be given zero reward and held accountable for there actions.


On the one hand: It's a movie written and directed by a man, so it's a man's presentation (possibly) of the Beauty and the Beast trope (Gendo'sPapa doesn't see any romantic connotation to those scenes, and that interpretation is perfectly valid) which can very easily slide into problematic territory.

On the other: Why do women need to be told this trope is toxic if it plays out in real life, or sheltered from it by excluding it from film?

Let's look at some male-centric tropes. My favorite example is James Bond: Dude lives the life, right? Adrenaline rushes, fast cars, wealth from nowhere, master gambler, the hottest women on earth constantly fall on his dick and disappear with no strings attached before their shit becomes tiresome, right? Yet it's also assumed that most men are aware that Bond is a broken man (especially the Craig version) who had and lost a reason to live and just absorbs all these compensatory pleasures (yeah I'm going to be a pretentious asshole and slip a Hemingway reference in there) without truly engaging in them, either. I'm sure everyone is confident that if asked, they would be confident that most guys would say yes, they want the fast cars, unearned luxury, and easy sex with beautiful women- but since being James Bond also entails getting whipped in the balls to the point of hospitalization, torture, nearly dying from poison, and all the other shit that's happened to him up to and including voodoo curses, no (sane, well adjusted) guy would actually want to be James Bond with all that entails given the opportunity.

In other words, guys are assumed to know the difference between reality and fantasy. A male viewer is assumed to know that it's fun to temporarily identify with Bond or John McClane or Batman or whoever but actually being that person would suck.

Even the parallel trope to Beauty and the Beast -the Manic Pixie Dream Girl- is assumed to be a pure fantasy that never works in the real world. Guys are taught early to "never stick your dick in crazy" i.e. don't even have a fling with a woman who'd be a comedic love interest in a movie. In the real world those types of partners steal your credit cards or stab you in your sleep or decide it would be great to let homeless people pee in your sink as a performance art installation or something.

Where am I going with this?

Feminist film is not made by men deciding women can't handle fantasy. I have the same issue with people criticizing, say, Fifty Shades of Grey for the same reason. It always seems to turn into a debate between men of what men think women can handle in their entertainment.

Also Rey pretty solidly rejected him in the movie so it's not like she went full Disney Princess and changed his heart or whatever. It's pretty clear that they're not going to get together unless it's purely in an emotional sense five minutes before he expires.

As janky as TLJ is, I'm about 90% certain that Johnson would not under any circumstances just play the beauty and the beast trope straight to the end and mush the characters together. Kylo Ren killed Han Solo. He's dead, sooner or later.

Which is what is going to happen, because that is what happened sort of in Return of the Jedi, and the next movie is being made by Abrams, who is constitutionally and spiritually incapable of making an original movie in a franchise series if there's a way he can take on that already exists and make it louder, dumber, bigger, and tentpoled by faux-nostalgic HEY REMEMBER THIS FROM THAT OTHER MOVIE? beats.

(KHAAAAAAAN! This callback totally makes up for us casting Bumblewhite Caucasianbund to play a character Rodenberry envisioned as Sikh-descended superman)

I think the intent behind their interactions in TLJ is that Rey and Ben Solo (had he never turned evil) and/or the part of Ben Solo that still exists could have an attraction to each other but don't because he's an evil self centered asshole. It's bush league greek tragedy plotting but it's still greek tragedy plotting; his hubris denies him true fulfillment yadda yadda.

Which, again, brings me back to an important point in this discussion:

If Rey was a dude and the vibe between Guy Rey (Ray?) and Kylo Ren was "in another life, we could have been as brothers" between two guys, no one would bat an eye. If it's "in another life, we could have been lovers" between a man and a woman -potentially, anyway- we have to get all up in arms about whether this is *appropriate* for girls to see. The men who make up the majority of critical discussion of these movies just flatly accept male-male character dynamics but feel a need to discuss a woman's attraction to a man like they have some stake in it. Curious, really.

Also, for the record, I was fangirling pretty hard when I saw the movie in theaters and felt legit disappointment when Kylo stayed evil, even when the basic structure of narrative storytelling dictates it doesn't happen at that juncture or at all.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby movieartman » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:07 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:it's hard to grasp how the calm, collected Luke who truly mastered the Force the last time we saw him became a fearful hothead again.

I really think we need a Luke move set a few years before Kylo lost his shit that explores his teaching students, doing peace keeping missions around the galaxy (some through diplomacy & negotiation & some with his saber as a last resort) and show some conflict he witnesses sow the seeds of fearing that one of his students will betray him. I would much prefer that to the Obi Wan movie people seem to be clamoring for.
Give Hamill some creative input to incite him back.

The sequel trilogy was simply made too late, and the main actors were too old to properly resolve their characters.

Not so sure, I think what they should have done with TFA (using the same basic status quo that we got) is open it
SPOILER: Show
with Luke finding his temple burning after returning from space. Have the film be Luke & Han teaming up to track down Ben. Luke fears Ben may have been part of it as they recently had a falling out, but Han scoffs at this idea. Rey travels with them, flashbacks show Luke finding Rey on Jakku after hearing rumors of a scavenger using the force to defend herself. Rey doesn't get along with Luke but bonds with Han.
They find evidence Ben has been captured by a sith like figure Kylo Ren, and they infiltrate a First Order base (not a new death star), Kylo reveals himself to be Ben and kills Han in the same way that we got.
Introduce Finn during this 3rd act, freeing Rey before she can be tortured. She and Finn together help Luke escape a trap Kylo set along with proof that the First Order has been fully re-militarizing like Leia has warned and been ignored by the New Republic.
The 2nd film be Luke training Rey while Leia & Poe are put more center stage with the New Republic & First Order declaring full war on each other.
This would allow us to get a lot more of interaction between the original cast members, not deal with a damn 3rd Death Star, show us the New Republic and everything our heroes created after the original trilogy.


(Except Black Widow, who's there to push Joss Whedon's waif fu, feet, and beauty and the beast buttons)

Don't agree, she got a stand out moment with her manipulating Loki and they went into her background and touched on her friendship with Clint. The beauty & the beast thing didn't come till Age of Ultron mostly.

If they did make the decision to write the part as they did and cast Dern for the role based on diversity or more female characters or whatever, that doesn't make it an attack on men or something

Agreed, fine with Dern's casting & fine with a female general, just not a fan of the execution & possible message that was meant to be sent.

Compare Luke to Rey:

Luke still at least got a bit of natural progression with them showing him struggling during his training with Yoda (and not really doing anything with the force but aiming in the first film), Rey mind tricking the Trooper came out of absolutely nowhere.

Is John McClane a Mary Sue? How about Dutch from Predator?

McClane has been universally praised for NOT being one what with us seeing him being severely injured throughout his films and coming off as a everyman.
Dutch is closer but still not too outlandish + he gets really worn down by the end of that film.
Arnold in Commando & Rambo in his sequels fit the bill more.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:41 pm

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:I really think we need a Luke move set a few years before Kylo lost his shit that explores his teaching students, doing peace keeping missions around the galaxy (some through diplomacy & negotiation & some with his saber as a last resort) and show some conflict he witnesses sow the seeds of fearing that one of his students will betray him. I would much prefer that to the Obi Wan movie people seem to be clamoring for.
Give Hamill some creative input to incite him back.


I am loathe to say "we don't need a movie" because I've often said that it's a lame, thoughtless criticism... but I usually say that when people are pre-critiquing the idea, rather than speaking in terms of dramatic need.

So I'm going to say it: We do not need any more movies with Luke Skywalker. It was a poor decision to integrate him into the new trilogy to the degree that he already was. They should have made a clean break and started fresh. Set Episode VII 200 years after or something with no rebellion/resistance vs empire/order plotline.

Luke Skywalker's story is done. At the end of Return of the Jedi he has become the ultimate Jedi. He defeated the Emperor with pure soul force. He won without fighting. He gave up violence and control. He stopped trying to command the turbulent river and instead became its banks, subject to it but also guiding it. He redeemed his father, destroyed the Emperor, ended the Empire, and was ready to fade into the background.

There is nothing more to add to his emotional journey.

George Lucas is reported to have answered a fan's question about what happened to Luke, Leia, and Han after the OT by simply saying, "They died."

Now, I think Lucas is a hack, but a broken clock can be right twice a day. He was correct there. Every story becomes a tragedy if it lasts too long.

TFA/TLJ suffer the same problem, writ large, that Solo did. They would stand fine on their own, but the connections to the Original Trilogy put too much weight on them and they crumble.

Really, the interesting idea for a movie -the decline and fall of the new Jedi order due to fear- happens between the movies and in flashbacks. The age of the actors and focus on a character who has completed an arc forces the new movies to focus on uninteresting rehash crap.

Don't agree, she got a stand out moment with her manipulating Loki and they went into her background and touched on her friendship with Clint. The beauty & the beast thing didn't come till Age of Ultron mostly.


I don't really want to get into a protracted off-topic debate about Marvel in the SW thread, but I remember as far back as seeing Avengers in the theater that there was a weird sexual subtext to a couple scenes with Natasha and the Hulk. Age of Ultron, which continued Whedon's vision of the characters, built upon and extended something that was already there.

She was definitely treated as a sex object by the movie. Do any of the other characters start the movie tied to a chair, surrounded by men, and jiggle their way out of danger? The other characters are introduced to the ensemble in such a way as to remind the audience of their character and powers. Black Widow is introduced to the ensemble in a bondage situation with as much boob as a PG-13 movie dares display.

Imagine if instead of a scene establishing his origins (man of out of time) and power (punching heavy bags right off their chains with several piled up to keep at it as exercise) Steve Rodgers had started off the movie in an homage to the ball torture scene in Casino Royale. They are essentially the same thing.


Agreed, fine with Dern's casting & fine with a female general, just not a fan of the execution & possible message that was meant to be sent.


I'm not quite clear what you think that message is, but if it's any variation of "women commanders are awesome and this dumb hotheaded man messed things up with his manness and was wrong all along, girl power", that's a huge reach. The much more obvious reading is that Holdo was an obstacle to Poe, at best mucked things up with an arrogant refusal to communicate, and had to atone with an epic suicide.

In other words, the character of Holdo is a bitchy woman boss who ruins things by carrying a chip on her shoulder and has to atone for her female bullheadedness by committing the manly act of seeking a beautiful death. It's not any kind of Tumblerina message no matter what anyone thinks of it.

Luke still at least got a bit of natural progression with them showing him struggling during his training with Yoda (and not really doing anything with the force but aiming in the first film), Rey mind tricking the Trooper came out of absolutely nowhere.


You mean like Luke moving the lightsaber with his mind at the beginning of ESB? When it wasn't even completely clear that Jedi could do that? In ANH Obi-Wan maybe moves something off screen to distract some stormtroopers but the only power we ever see him display is the mind trick and acting as a spirit guide. The Force in ANH is entirely a spiritual focus thing.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Gus Hanson » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:56 pm

*deep sigh* If they kill him off, why even bother to bring the OT cast at all?! :rolleyes:
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:03 am

The return of Lando was a given. I repeat, JJ Abrams is the most fan pandering working professional filmmaker today.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Chuckman » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:47 am

I look forward to the scene in which Lando must battle a much larger, newer Lando while the rest of the cast is somehow able to watch from the surface of another planet.

I just want to say that Lando's appearance will be redeemed if half his face is burned off by acid.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:22 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:The return of Lando was a given. I repeat, JJ Abrams is the most fan pandering working professional filmmaker today.

So should we also expect the Death Star IV Starkiller II something that's no moon and a Rey and Kylo are brother and sister or cousins angle?
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Chuckman » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:51 pm

It turns out that Kylo is Rey's father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:58 pm

SPOILER: Show
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:16 am

I mean frankly I’m expecting now that Rian Johnson (rightfully so) made Rey’s parents a bunch of nobodies that JJ Abrams’ response is going to be making Lando be Finn’s dad.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Chuckman » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:29 pm

I assume that after we learn that, Captain Phasma kills him and a romantic tension with a light flavoring of BDSM forms between them?

I mean, at some point, JJ has to start recycling his own movies. Then the circle will be complete.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Gus Hanson » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:37 pm

Is Phasma returning at all? I think I remember hearing that due to the overstocking of many characters in TLJ, it was possible that Phasma might not return for IX...
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Chuckman » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:32 pm

Considering that she isn't a character but a tall shiny stormtrooper I guess it depends if they feel like having her or not.
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:56 pm

Well... if the cast is diverse enough as is, she probably won't be back.

Though I'm afraid for Lando if he does get included in the film given their attitude for nonchalantly and unceremoniously killing off all the original characters, that'll we have to watch him die too with some sort of off screen death for Leia in addition to that.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Sachi » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:37 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Though I'm afraid for Lando if he does get included in the film given their attitude for nonchalantly and unceremoniously killing off all the original characters, that'll we have to watch him die too with some sort of off screen death for Leia in addition to that.

>nonchalantly and unceremoniously killing off all the original characters

You mean like Han Solo, whose death was a central point of the first film and continues to weigh upon the story and the characters?

Or like Luke, whose death was a central point of the second film, and was absolutely anything but unceremonious?

No, you probably mean Ackbar, who's only as popular as he is because of a dumb meme, right?
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Postby Guy Nacks » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:04 pm

View Original PostGus Hanson wrote:Is Phasma returning at all? I think I remember hearing that due to the overstocking of many characters in TLJ, it was possible that Phasma might not return for IX...


Phasma is even more pointless than Mari in Rebuild. It's been an utter waste of Gwendoline Christie.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Chuckman » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:47 pm

They keep trying to force a Boba Fett.
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:32 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:>nonchalantly and unceremoniously killing off all the original characters

You mean like Han Solo, whose death was a central point of the first film and continues to weigh upon the story and the characters?

Or like Luke, whose death was a central point of the second film, and was absolutely anything but unceremonious?

No, you probably mean Ackbar, who's only as popular as he is because of a dumb meme, right?

I say unceremonious because the trio never got back together, even for a moment of screen time, and if they hadn't rushed things along to meet the yearly release, we could have had a small reunion of the original trio. It was a wasted opportunity on the filmmakers part, and I really don't see Luke's death as being that pivotal considering his character was so misused to begin with. And I also include Ackbar, not for his meme, but Legends the EU, which I still enjoy reading.
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Postby Sachi » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:43 pm

So, what you're saying is that it was indeed ceremonious, you just didn't like the ceremony?
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Chuckman » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:39 am

The deaths haven't been unceremonious but they have been cheap tricks to buy emotion that neither movie earned.

Luke's final arc was a good concept, badly executed in a poorly paced movie with a bad script.
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