Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby IronEvangelion » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:27 pm

I've now watched The Last Jedi, so I'm finally caught up on all the SW films until the Solo film comes out. As for my opinion of TLJ, someone else on the internet summed the film up perfectly: It's like they made the best SW film of all time, and the worst SW film of all time, then spliced them into a single film.

SPOILER: Show
I'll start off by saying that I loved the parts involving Luke and/or Rey, and most of the Krayt segment at the end. Those were the great parts of the film. I loved how sassy and snarky Luke was, and the dry humor he demonstrated in scenes like the "That's the Force!" scene on Ach-To. I don't find Rey as unlikable as I used to, either. She does seem to have developed some, and also seems to be better-written and acted than she was in TFA. And the best part about it was, we finally got to see her fail at something. Badly. To the point where she almost died because of her bad judgment. That was wonderful, I've been waiting for that to happen since TFA. Hopefully she learns from it and matures as a result, and I believe she will, since learning from your failures is the core theme of the film.

However, the space segments of the film were cringe-inducingly bad. They were the military/tactical equivalent of the Padmanakin romance scenes in AOTC, except the TLJ space scenes took up roughly 40% of the film. Star destroyers sit idly by and watch their dreadnought get slaughtered by an x-wing and a very lucky bomber, Poe doesn't notice what a bad idea his raid on said dreadnought was until Leia points out to him that the Resistance lost most of their small attack craft as a result, force-sensitives can survive and fly in space (Leia) without the aid of protective gear, the vacuum of space will only suck you out of an open door or hole in a ship if it's convenient for the plot, Holdo decides that being obstinate and generally being as much of a dick as she can be is a better idea than working with her new subordinates and gaining their trust, Finn and Rose knowingly leave their fully functional ship parked in a location that will cause them to be arrested after being told they can't park there, Rose prevents Finn from making a good tactical move that would have left the Resistance in a much stronger position at the cost of his life (and it's portrayed as a good thing)... Ugh.

I get that the theme is to show everyone failing and learning from their mistakes, but the force-user arc had much more believable fails. The fails in the space arc were so exaggerated and boneheaded that they insult both the characters' intelligence and that of the viewers. Poe is not dumb enough to not notice his own mistakes after the fact. Hux surely did not get to where he is without knowing that having all of your ships engage the enemy instead of just one is a good idea. Finn and Rose are not dumb enough to not realize that leaving their ship in a known no-parking zone will bring the law down on them and jeopardize their mission. How did Holdo get to such a high leadership position when she's worse at working with her subordinates than Vader was with his? How does Rose not realize that allowing Finn to sacrifice himself will destroy the only door-breaching gun the First Order has on the battlefield, leaving the Resistance secure behind an impenetrable door and rendering Luke's interference unnecessary? Come on, these characters are not that dumb.

Overall, though, I do approve of the film since it brought in a lot of much-needed character development for the newer cast members. A lot of the hate I see directed at the film is about the cast being depicted as flawed human beings who make a lot of mistakes instead of acting badass. While I do believe that certain parts were poorly done or straight up bad (see above), I also believe that the characters being depicted as flawed was a good thing overall, because that was the whole point of the film: showing the characters failing and learning from their mistakes. Poe screws up repeatedly, learns from it, and becomes a much better leader. Finn screws up horribly, learns from it, and becomes a better person. Rey finally screws up and has nobody there to cover for her, and is nearly killed as a result. She learns from it and becomes more mature. Luke goes through catharsis and emerges stronger than ever because of it. Even Kylo becomes less weak over the course of the film.


My ranking of the films from favorite to least favorite now looks like this:

Return of the Jedi
The Phantom Menace
The Empire Strikes Back
Rogue One
A New Hope
The Force Awakens
The Last Jedi
Revenge of the Sith
Attack of the Clones

While TLJ was mostly great, the sheer amount of dumb stuff that happened during the space scenes really drags it down a few pegs. If the film had ditched that arc to focus entirely the on Luke/Rey/Kylo arc, TLJ would easily have been much higher on my list because that stuff was great. It's still a better film than RoTS and especially AotC, though. The only reason I have TFA above it is because that film was of a much more consistent quality throughout, while TLJ was really great in some parts but really bad in others, which makes it somewhat painful to watch.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:16 am

Rogue One should not be high. The acting and dialogue there is vastly outstripped by waht we see in the likes of ROTJ and TLJ, andit's story is vastly inferior to ROTS'. Rogue One might just be the most overrated film of the franchise.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Sachi » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:38 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Rogue One should not be high. The acting and dialogue there is vastly outstripped by waht we see in the likes of ROTJ and TLJ, andit's story is vastly inferior to ROTS'. Rogue One might just be the most overrated film of the franchise.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Thu May 03, 2018 11:48 pm

So, seeing as this is Star Wars related...
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby movieartman » Thu May 24, 2018 9:50 pm

James Mangold (cop land, 310 to yuma, the wolverine, logan) will write & direct the Boba Fett movie...

This is so perfect.
Really hope its not him as a kid learning to be a hunter.
Ether go...
A.) Him in his prime pre Empire Strikes Back as a Punisher style inevitable boogeyman of the Star Wars Underworld.
B.) A older him post Return of the Jedi having escaped the Sarlacc like in the old canon and his injuries he received in the Pitt taking a long term toll on him.
For anyone skeptical of option B I recommend reading the Fett story arc from this anthology book - https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/sta ... Bounty.jpg
Option B would also allow them to bring Temuera Morrison back and his age not be a issue.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri May 25, 2018 10:34 am

Watch him get fired or all of his material rewritten.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Fri May 25, 2018 10:56 am

Considering how poorly Solo is doing they may not. But this is Disney, and they know everything :rolleyes: so I'm sure they will not only fire him at some point in the not so distant future, but also re-write the script.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby IronEvangelion » Sat May 26, 2018 9:11 pm

At least Solo seems to be doing better than TLJ in viewer reviews. Rotten Tomatoes has it at 57% favorable from people who saw it, while TLJ is at 46% IIRC. Maybe a significant portion of the naysayers are part of the very vocal crowd that hate Disney for not making a clone of Harrison Ford to act in the film.

I'll reserve judgment on the film until I've seen it, though. It could be a great film that's getting bashed by Ford fanboys, or it could suck and deserve all of the negativity. I have plans to see it in a theater this coming week, so I'll know soon. But judging by the trailers, I find it hard to believe that it's actually a 57% film.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby EvangelionFan » Sat May 26, 2018 11:29 pm

I don't often comment about Star Wars anymore, and I admit, it's because these newer post-Lucas works haven't been altogether satisfying ... and Solo: A Star Wars Story is unfortunately a disappointment. I do like Lando (Donald Glover) and his droid companion 'L3', who are definitely the standout characters (and components) of this film. I feel the actor they have portraying Young (TM) Han Solo (TM) is alright. And the film could be alright, if the story actually kept its promise by being a film about Han Solo.

As it is, it's actually a film about
Seriously this is a spoiler  SPOILER: Show
the cinematic return of Darth Maul, and Lucasfilm/Disney's impression that the return of Maul's character to the mainstream Star Wars films is what fans are looking for, or, worse still, that Maul is a 'requirement' for an interesting or compelling Star Wars Cinematic Universe.

I am deadly serious. The apprentice who is supposed to have died in The Phantom Menace, who was brought back for a few comics and side-stories in the expanded universe to re-sell the character to a fraction of interested fans, and, more recently, reappeared in both of the Star Wars animated TV series, is once again in a Star Wars film.

For a moment, as the film slowed panned around that seated hooded figure in hologram, I had hoped that it would be Snoke - something I thought would be a little inspired in light of how bland and uninteresting the 'big bad syndicate' had been through to that moment - and, to my horror, I was wrong, he lifted his hood and it was Darth 'I just don't fucking die' Maul.

And if you're in doubt, Maul stands up briefly, revealing he has the mechanical bottom half just as he does in the aforementioned EU works, and he goes as far as to flick on a red lightsaber to intimidate the audience (and Qi'Ra). And then Qi'Ra flies away in the big bad ship, supposedly going to Maul, and more worryingly, leaving that line of the story open for further development in future films...


And it's a shame because I feel the film could've come out decent if that angle of the story had been left on the cutting room floor. Unfortunately, it's there, as are the awkward lines of dialogue that infer Han Solo's adventures in the Original Trilogy (as though he somehow has to hear specific things from specific people to be inspired to abandon his smuggler's life and become a hero in the OT ... but that's already his arc in A New Hope), and the awkwardness of L3's otherwise inspired and amusing character in a bland dramatic origin story.

Someday I'd like to learn about all the alterations that Lucasfilm/Disney argued for and that Phil Lord and Christopher Miller argued against ... as it is, I doubt anyone is going to step forward and speak about it for the foreseeable future. I feel could've come together as a fine caper if it got an inspired storyteller guiding its creative and dramatic direction (and not a studio intent on doubly using the film as a vehicle for developing a cinematic universe in the style of another cinematic universe they already happen to own). Instead, done as it is, it's a clutter of a film.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun May 27, 2018 4:08 am

The Last Jedi scores aren't too trustworthy, since people spammed 1s and created multiple accounts to lower the score.
Imdb I think is a better representation.

Solo was a fun yet simple movie. Imo nothing wrong with that. Other than a character appearance that I think felt out of place, no complaints. Loved the Kasdan dialogue.
Well, I guess the direction could have been a little crazier and inventive keeping in mind the subject matter, but it was good, and we all know how little time Ron Howard had.
Not a film on the level of the likes of Empire at all, but fun.
L3 was pretty hilarious too.

SPOILER: Show
-You need anything?
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It was hilarious. The timing was so good with that exchange.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Sachi » Sun May 27, 2018 3:45 pm

Solo surpassed all expectations. In ways unlike the other SW films, Solo has the feel of an adventure movie that is exciting and lends itself to great humor. Despite it being clear that the film went through production hell, which mostly shows through the whiplashes in direction whenever they transition between acts, the film accomplishes a great deal of world building and establishing its own identity. Much how Alden Ehrenreich did a fantastic job in making the Solo character his own, which was the advice Harrison Ford gave him (apparently Ford "adores" the film, which says a lot considering the grump he is). My favorite character was certainly Woody Harrelson as Tobias Beckett, who plays a sort of Long John Silver type and mentor to Solo; despite Harrelson mostly just playing himself in movies, it really works here. Of course Donald Glover was perfect as Lando (who doubted that), and I was surprised by how fun the droid L3-37 ended up being.

One thing I need to talk about is how Solo connects to the greater SW lore, particularly the animated series, and the implications this has for future SW films. Very much so, this film feels very much in the spirit of the two canon animated series, The Clone Wars and Rebels. Continuing the trend started with inserting Saw Gerrera from TCW into Rogue One, the characters in Solo freely and casually reference events and characters from the animated series. That's fine and fun, but here's the kicker :

SPOILER: Show
Maul has returned to the big screen. In a twist reveal, it's shown that Maul is the secret boss behind the Crimson Dawn. For those who have only seen the films, this is going to be incredibly confusing, frustrating even. The last they saw of him was him getting chopped in half by Kenobi in TPM. Well, however you feel about it, TCW decided to resurrect his character, and it ended up producing some of the best damn stories from that series. It's all very much canon, but for a while it seemed like it would be regulated to the cartoons, as sort of second tier canon. Bringing back Maul to the big screen legitimizes the cartoon shows and the lore they've provided, and promises that the future of SW will continue to be interwoven. This may even mean the introduction of other major characters making the jump to the big screen, such as Thrawn or Ahsoka.

It definitely took me some time to process this information, but the more I think about it, the more happy I am about what this could mean for future SW films. Overall, Solo isn't the greatest film, nor is it the best SW film, but it's hell of a lot of fun, and I can't wait to see it again.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun May 27, 2018 4:07 pm

∆ Ford SEEMS grumpy, he's actually a nice guy. It shines through.

Have never said this on this site I believe, but H. Ford is like one of my gods.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Chuckman » Sun May 27, 2018 4:33 pm

Huh. How about that.

SPOILER: Show
I haven't seen it yet but I'm looking forward to this. Is it still Ray Park or has someone else been cast?

This may sound odd, but Maul is such a blank slate that I'm happy to see them take him up. Okay, he's not 'original' in the strictest terms but I'd love to see them develop an actual original-ish character other than all the people who die in Rogue One.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun May 27, 2018 11:16 pm

@Chuckman:
SPOILER: Show
It's Ray Park, with the voice of Sam Witwer.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby EvangelionFan » Sun May 27, 2018 11:25 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:
SPOILER: Show
I haven't seen it yet but I'm looking forward to this. Is it still Ray Park or has someone else been cast?

This may sound odd, but Maul is such a blank slate that I'm happy to see them take him up. Okay, he's not 'original' in the strictest terms but I'd love to see them develop an actual original-ish character other than all the people who die in Rogue One.


SPOILER: Show
Apparently he is portrayed by Ray Park, but is voiced by Samuel Witwer, who has voiced the character in The Clone Wars and Rebels. Appropriate casting in my opinion.

Insofar as the theatrical films go, you're right the Maul is a blank slate and that he could have potential for a great villain ... unfortunately, that's already been done by both Clone Wars and Rebels, and given that he dies permanently in Rebels, I don't feel there's a lot of wiggle room to be done with him short of a film that focuses explicitly on his managing the inner workings of his Crimson Dawn syndicate and Qi'Ra's involvement in it. It's an interesting concept for a stand-alone film.

Unfortunately, it feels shoehorned into Solo: A Star Wars, a film that I had hoped would be about genuine galactic gangsters (Jabba the Hutt and Tattooine are referenced in dialogue in the last half hour, but apart from Beckett neither they nor their ilk appear in the film) and high stakes smuggling. Han Solo and co. hatch a plan for the Kessel Run job because they failed a previous job and have to do this one or else they'll be killed, only, the story is never going to permit Solo, Chewie, or Lando to be harmed any more badly than by a grazing shot from a blaster. But, worse in my opinion, the OT lore of the Millenium Falcon as 'doing the Kessel Run in 12 Parsecs' and being 'the fastest ship in the galaxy' is undermined - first by that fact that none of the so-called gangsters in the film has heard of anyone doing a 'Kessel Run' like how Han pitches it (implying that no-one normally attempts to steal spice unrefined hyperfuel from Kessel because of alliances between different criminal syndicates), and second, by the circumstantial appearance of a Star Destroyer which forces Han to dare for an otherwise inadvisable shortcut and in doing so accomplish the distance of 12 Parsecs ... once the Falcon is on land again and the hyperfuel is getting refined, Young Han quotes the statistic to Chewie as an interesting afterthought, there's a gag that Chewie says something and Han responds he's rounding it down, and it doesn't gel at all to Ford's Han Solo admonishing and Luke and Obi-Wan for their ignorance in the classic Cantina scene.

You can imagine my dismay that the filmmakers would be more interested in depicting the obviously Sith-inspired shadow play of a forgotten Sith apprentice from a prequel, than giving more narrative attention to and developing the amazing and dangerous underworld glimpsed in the Original Trilogy (and a little in Attack of the Clones and games like Bounty Hunter on the PS2)


I am directing a great deal of criticism here, however I'll clarify I do feel that fans ought to give Solo: A Star Wars Story a go if they are interested in the characters, as there notable performances here from Glover and Harrelson, the lead is alright, and there are few decent action scenes and comedy moments here and there.

That said, if my commentary isn't giving it away, I am of the opinion that the film repeats some of the failures of Lucas's prequels in choosing a few compelling lines of dialogue from the OT to develop films from, and then filling the gaps with too little of the right stuff.
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Postby Sachi » Mon May 28, 2018 1:09 am

SPOILER: Show
Maul actually got quite a bit of development between both animated series, much of it brought to life by Sam Witwer's amazing voice performances. Aside from being driven by revenge against Kenobi, Maul also attempts to get the attention of Palpatine by gaining influence in the criminal underworld, either to become his apprentice again or to rival Palpatine as the true Sith Lord (both reasons are considered). He eventually takes over Mandalore, before Palpatine confronts him. He appears again years later in the Rebels series (which takes place after Solo, before ANH), attempting to find the secret to destroying the Sith (having given up the Sith philosophy and denouncing his title as Darth), and eventually meets his end at the hands of Kenobi on Tattooine in the greatest homage to samurai duels ever, when Maul discovers Kenobi is hiding the chosen one. But there is this large gap of what he's been up to between the two animated series, which seems to be what is being addressed in Solo and will continue to be explored. At some point, Maul needs to lose everything again and become stranded on Malachor, so that it fits with Rebels. I'm predicting the Empire will chase him down again, perhaps even Vader this time. Would be great to see Vader versus Maul on screen.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby EvangelionFan » Mon May 28, 2018 2:41 am

re: Sachi  SPOILER: Show
I appreciate your post on this, though I am aware of some Maul's development and hisin TCW and Rebels. I've also seen the clip you linked to. It's a good scene. I thought it closed his character out well.

Which is why it's irritating that his character is being brought into the films again now, in what would be - as you say - an undeveloped period in his arc, and in a film that ought to have us talking about how awesome Han Solo is. Instead, here I am writing about how annoying I find it that the studio found a way to shove Maul in there to start to sell audiences on the potential for a future Maul story, and re-sell the stories in TCW and Rebels. I'd rather they just left those ideas on the cutting room floor and let Solo simply be A Han Solo Story.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Mon May 28, 2018 12:17 pm

I know I saw Solo: A Star Wars Story last night but it's such a tepid non-experience I can't recall anything about it.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby kuribo-04 » Mon May 28, 2018 1:53 pm

∆ My mind wanders between the two opinions being expressed here.
I think I love the film for the fun I had and will have when I rewatch it, on the other hand so much more could have been done.

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The whole "dissapointment story" with Han just didn't land. I expected a harsher story, of how dissapointment with other people can make you become those people, closing yourself off. We have always known Han was softer than he admitted, but what would drive a good guy to act like that?
In the film however, he acts pretty upbeat throughout.
I also know Kasdan can write a better character arc (Luke in ESB).
Not by any means a bad or mediocre movie though IMO
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
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"In any case, it (Kill la Kill) is the greatest work of fiction ever written and should be taught in schools." -Squigsquasher
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Guy Nacks » Mon May 28, 2018 4:47 pm

I actually was able to enjoy Solo more than TLJ simply because I had less things to gripe about, with the major exception of the twist at the end.

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It felt pointlessly dark and not earned. I would have been able to accept it if the reveal has been, say, of Boba Fett, but Maul just seemed too dark for Qi'ra to be in league with.


But yeah, basically another okay SW film that I'm not in any rush to see again. Would love to see the Lord/Miller cut, but we all know that won't happen.
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996


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