Rebuild is shallow tangent

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

Moderators: New Moderators, Board Staff

Asuka'sBigBrother
Adam
Posts: 85
Joined: Oct 20, 2017
Gender: Male

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:46 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Just so we can judge your ability to discern character development within fictional narratives without presenting an argument in a way that involved ad hominem attacks, exactly how does changing Ham Solo’s behavior as influenced by the nature of his core appeal as a character in his introductory scene not actually change the nature of his core appeal as a character in his introductory scene? How does that not influence the reading of the nature of his core appeal as a character in the rest of the movie?

Because Han Solo has plenty outside of that scene that grants him virtually identical characterization, like, for example, shooting first when he saw Darth Vader or his initial interactions with Princess Leia. That moment isn't essential to Han Solo's characterization.


View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:How can you say that the directors of Eva replaced NGE when the directors actually actively bought the rights from Gainax in order to keep the original NGE circulating in its best possible quality? (That in particular seems like an internal contradiction in the argument your making.)

Because regardless of what was done out of universe, the Rebuild movies occupy the same space NGE occupied in the story. I'm commenting from an in-universe perspective as I clarified in a part of my post you conveniently decided to ignore.
View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:How does any of this prove that NTE is ultimately shallow?

That wasn't the focus of the post of mine you replied to. If you want me to elaborate on that, respond to a post I made which actually argues that.
View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Please be detailed, show your work, and use citations for your sources whenever possible.

Pass.

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7569
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:29 am

The whole "NTE takes place in the same space as NGE" argument seems forced and contrived when you consider that NTE takes place in a space where the oceans are red, the Key of Nebuchadnezzar is a thing, and there are no less that 4 Adam running amok. None of this was true in the space NGE took place in, so, logically speaking, NTE must be taking place in a different space. After all, the Pauli exclusion principle clearly states that two or more identical fermions (particles with half-integer spin) cannot occupy the same quantum state within a quantum system simultaneously.

Basically, the red oceans of NTE cannot occupy the exact same space as the blue oceans of NGE. Therefore, it's a different space.

Asuka'sBigBrother
Adam
Posts: 85
Joined: Oct 20, 2017
Gender: Male

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:51 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:The whole "NTE takes place in the same space as NGE" argument seems forced and contrived when you consider that NTE takes place in a space where the oceans are red, the Key of Nebuchadnezzar is a thing, and there are no less that 4 Adam running amok. None of this was true in the space NGE took place in, so, logically speaking, NTE must be taking place in a different space. After all, the Pauli exclusion principle clearly states that two or more identical fermions (particles with half-integer spin) cannot occupy the same quantum state within a quantum system simultaneously.

Semantics. The minor changes in setting you've noted doesn't stop NTE from being a reboot. Reboot's out a retelling of pre-existing material, not new material that builds of it's predecessor.

CommanderFish
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Age: 17
Posts: 256
Joined: Jul 31, 2016
Gender: Male

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby CommanderFish » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:35 pm

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:^ I’m noticing that anytime Anno decides to focus less on the waifu material and focus more on Shinji, things get dicey with American/Western audiences.

It sounds like you're implying that they were designed to just be waifus from day 1. I feel like you don't really believe this, so I can't quite understand why you're saying it. Is it meant to be a joke, or hyperbole, or something?

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:The whole "NTE takes place in the same space as NGE" argument seems forced and contrived when you consider that NTE takes place in a space where the oceans are red, the Key of Nebuchadnezzar is a thing, and there are no less that 4 Adam running amok. None of this was true in the space NGE took place in, so, logically speaking, NTE must be taking place in a different space.

New world, same characters?

If you don't want to believe it's possible I completely understand, but I do think that this is a rather limited way to view things.
"The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth"

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 71
Posts: 9414
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby pwhodges » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:20 pm

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:It sounds like you're implying that they were designed to just be waifus from day 1. I feel like you don't really believe this, so I can't quite understand why you're saying it. Is it meant to be a joke, or hyperbole, or something?

He's pointing out that the Anglophone audience tries to take something from it other than what Anno was putting in (at least in emphasis), and this leads to distorted viewpoints compared with those prevalent in Japan.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Sad, sad Shinji... (details); Past avatars.
Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7569
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:37 pm

Yes. Overall, most Western audiences seem to enjoy focusing on the attractive female characters (especially the pilots) over Shinji, the actual main character to the show. As a result, most of their insights on these characters tend to be used in mainly fortifying “best girl” arguments. This is also why many complaints about New Theatrical Evangelion usually begin with “Let me tell you about why Soryu is better than Shikinami...”

anonymaus
Adam
Posts: 65
Joined: Sep 10, 2017

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby anonymaus » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:20 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Overall, most Western audiences seem to enjoy focusing on the attractive female characters (especially the pilots) over Shinji, the actual main character to the show.

It's cute that you think this is an exclusively western thing. Go on 2ch's eva board and count the number of threads about Shinji vs the number of threads about Rei and Asuka. There is this very American idea that only Americans like sex appeal, while superior cultures clearly want nothing to do with it. Actually the reverse is true. You're the folks self flagellating over your instincts. Humans are highly sexual creatures.

It also has more reasoning besides sex appeal by the way. Shinji is an amalgam of traits that the average anime viewer is likely to have. If you give someone a mirror and a picture of two interesting people, they'll naturally look at the other people more. You feel me?

I'd also like to use this post to say that Rebuild is really amazingly bad, especially 3.0, and anyone who pretends otherwise is practicing wishful thinking. If I had a machine which measured the net dopamine release in your brain when you watched NGE versus Rebuild, NGE would score higher for every single one of you.

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7569
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:49 am

I never said that only Americans were into sex appeal. I've only said that the lack of focus on Asuka and Co. in NTE doesn't seem to be as big of a deal-breaker in Japan as it is in the US. Japanese audiences as a whole still seem to enjoy NTE despite it's laser-focus on the character of Shinji Ikari at the expense of the "Main Character" status of everyone else. Also, I never said that I feel as though NTE was better (or even more enjoyable) that NGE. To the contrary, I've opined several times that I prefer NGE to NTE. I just don't think NTE is terrible either. Not everything I like has to be the "Best. Thing. EVAR." I just need to think that it's really good. I compare NTE more to solid James Cameron action movies (especially the first two films), whereas I would compare NGE more to Stanley Kubrick films.

If you can give some reasons as to why you think that NTE is amazingly bad, please do so. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.

Asuka'sBigBrother
Adam
Posts: 85
Joined: Oct 20, 2017
Gender: Male

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:13 pm

Yea, it's evident westerners aren't as obsessed with sexualized animated characters as the Japanese when you look at what we put in our animation.

Japan over sexualizes animated characters to pander to a Primarily Japanese audience, not a primarily western one.

Lennik
Tunniel
User avatar
Age: 25
Posts: 180
Joined: Apr 18, 2013
Location: USA
Gender: Male

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Lennik » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:20 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:I'd also like to use this post to say that Rebuild is really amazingly bad, especially 3.0, and anyone who pretends otherwise is practicing wishful thinking. If I had a machine which measured the net dopamine release in your brain when you watched NGE versus Rebuild, NGE would score higher for every single one of you.


:rolleyes:

This is why threads like this are never a good idea. They basically exist for frothing-at-the-mouth keyboard pounding.

Sachi
Oh Daddy!
Oh Daddy!
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 9880
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Location: Hollywoo
Gender: Male

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Sachi » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:14 am

3.0 brought an uncontrollable smile to my face, in a way that NGE never did. Dopamine is no issue. The Beethoven moment gives me shivers and is probably my favorite moment of the entire Eva franchise. Absolutely gorgeous.
"Chaos is merely a human construct. The world only knows its own natural law of harmony and order."
"So you are saying it's the human heart that throws the world into confusion."

anonymaus
Adam
Posts: 65
Joined: Sep 10, 2017

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby anonymaus » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:45 am

View Original PostLennik wrote::rolleyes:

This is why threads like this are never a good idea. They basically exist for frothing-at-the-mouth keyboard pounding.

I didn't make this thread, I commented the first post as a reply to a thread which was something like "what were your thoughts on Rebuild" and somebody moved it to a new thread

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7569
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:35 am

In Japan, Eva tends to be as popular as The Matrix or Star Wars. In America, Eva tends to be only slightly more popular then any other low-brow fan service-riddled monstrosity. Sure, both NGE and NTE (and almost any Eva merchandise out there) tends to have elements of sex appeal about them, Eva is not primarily about sex appeal. Just like how The Matrix or Star Wars tend to also have elements of sex appeal about them (beautiful actors in skin-tight leather in The Matrix, Princess Leia's slave outfit in Return of the Jedi), those titles aren't primarily about their sex appeal either. In both examples, sex appeal is used to a greater narrative goal of character development and world-building.

But, one couldn't really find any contradiction in selling either Star Wars or The Matrix in an environment where sex appeal is the main focus. After all, the sex appeal in both titles are fairly successful in achieving the desired effect in their respective viewers. (One Star Wars fan told Carrie Fisher that he "thought of her" at least four times a day.) It all depends on what you sell along side of those titles that will decide how the surrounding culture that shops at your store consider those titles. Now, in America, those who consider mostly only sex appeal when thinking of The Matrix to Star Wars are in a minority. Much of the culture still consider these titles to be more pop-culture icons rather than titles that feature sex appeal. But you can still find a few places that only sell merchandise of these titles that relate to their inclusion of sex appeal. (Spencer's Gifts readily comes to mind, though there may be others.)

In America, however, Eva has always been sold along side more perverted, blatantly sex-obsessed titles. A fair amount of ADV's titles contain anime where the entire focus of the story was about sex. In order to watch Eva on ADV's DVD releases, I usually find myself watching ads that feature Colorful and Mezzo Forte, which have no thematic or genre similarities to Eva's main narrative goals. Their similarities to Eva are all aesthetic, featuring sexy girls either performing in action scenes or sexy girls in various states of undress. That is what Eva is sold with in America. This is how most Americans that know of Eva also relate to Eva. The audiences are mainly aware of the sex appeal. In Japan, however, Eva isn't paired with such titles in their pop-culture environment, so the connection between such titles isn't as prominent in Japan as it is in the United States. As a result, Japanese audiences may not as readily relate Eva with strictly the aspects of sex appeal found within Eva. Eva is about more than just sexy girls, and their cultural awareness of Eva reflects that notion. Sure there's sex appeal to be had, but that isn't even the main focus of the culture's interest in Eva. They're interested in it as more of a pop-culture icon than they are a series of gratuitous fanservice scenes.

Because Eva's sex appeal is further accentuated by the more obviously risqué titles that ADV (and now Funimation) associate with it, American audiences tend to focus more on the "waifu" characters of Eva than Japanese audiences would be, thereby effecting its critical reception. This is why NTE tends to get taken down in American discussions because "Best Girl didn't get enough screen time." After all, Eva is sold in America along side of all of the other late-night Anime titles, so why shouldn't an American relate to Eva in a way that isn't evocative of late-night Anime titles? (Which have become a weird Rubix's Cube of fan service and character development of late.) So, just like many people's first thought when it comes to Star Wars is lightsabers and Jedi, and not Leia's slave outfit, many Japanese people's first thought of Eva are the Units and NERV, and not Asuka's Test Plugsuit. But the marketing and associated titles in America, however, tends to warp that perception, causing American fans to be in it more for the waifus than many Japanese audiences are. Many American's first thought when Eva is mentioned (other than "What the Hell is an Eva?") is the body of either Rei or Asuka.

anonymaus
Adam
Posts: 65
Joined: Sep 10, 2017

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby anonymaus » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:22 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:American audiences tend to focus more on the "waifu" characters of Eva than Japanese audiences would be

This is incorrect, as was already explained in an earlier post

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7569
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:46 am

Well, you negated it in a earlier post. My request for an explanation has since gone unanswered. Also, what are your thoughts on the rest of the post? That might help build the cornerstone for your argument against my assessments.

Asuka'sBigBrother
Adam
Posts: 85
Joined: Oct 20, 2017
Gender: Male

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:11 pm

By the standards of American animation, Eva is full to the brim with sex appeal and massively sexualizes it's characters. Neither Starwars or the Matrix have a similar amount of sexualization.

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7569
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:44 am

^ Ah, yes, but it doesn't always do it in a way that applies to the commonly held notion of sex appeal. For example, Asuka in the hospital room scene in EoE is sexualized, but the scene itself has absolutely no intended sex appeal. The same thing is true for the scenes between Misato and Shinji in both Episode 23 or EoE. Our Rei in Episode 23. Or Ritsuko in EoE. Or Naoko in Episode 21.

Remember, we're not looking for just sexualization, but specifically for sex appeal. Rape is also a form of sexualization, but it is not appealing.

Also, how does The Matrix not count? There's a fully nude sex scene in The Matrix Reloaded while sweaty bodies in wet, translucent clothing grind on each other during a rave in the other room in ways that imply all manner of various sexual expressions. No Anno-helmed film direction, Eva or otherwise, can boast of sexualized content to that particular extreme, say nothing of it being presented in a way that is intended by the filmmakers to be appealing.

EDIT: I like how deep we have to go into NTE in order to prove that it's shallow, as this thread's title implies that we're still doing. It seems as though going this deep into NTE's narrative defeats the purpose of proving that it isn't deep.

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 71
Posts: 9414
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby pwhodges » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:04 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:EDIT: I like how deep we have to go into NTE in order to prove that it's shallow, as this thread's title implies that we're still doing. It seems as though going this deep into NTE's narrative defeats the purpose of proving that it isn't deep.

But your recent posts have been using examples from NGE, which is rather not the point, given the thread title!
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Sad, sad Shinji... (details); Past avatars.
Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

Asuka'sBigBrother
Adam
Posts: 85
Joined: Oct 20, 2017
Gender: Male

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:19 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:
EDIT: I like how deep we have to go into NTE in order to prove that it's shallow, as this thread's title implies that we're still doing. It seems as though going this deep into NTE's narrative defeats the purpose of proving that it isn't deep.

The sex appeal of lack of sex appeal of a show has little or nothing to do with narrative depth.

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 71
Posts: 9414
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby pwhodges » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:45 am

But it has a lot to do with how it is perceived, none the less - and the marketing in some areas can emphasise this.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Sad, sad Shinji... (details); Past avatars.
Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest