Rebuild is shallow tangent

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Nahash » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:10 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Does she have to be? She's no more of a main character in NTE than Ritsuko is. She's a supporting cast member, and nothing about the NTE films suggests otherwise. Shikinami fulfills that supporting character role flawlessly.


I know, my English is horrible. I know, everyone does not have the time to read a long comment.
But, could you read my comment in full?
You understand, it is slightly annoying to see someone answer you and missing the point because he read only the first line.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:47 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:(actually they already did, but no one ever says something about it, even if it makes the original two final episodes even more disconnected than they were originally).
Ahem.
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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:33 pm

View Original PostNahash wrote:I know, my English is horrible. I know, everyone does not have the time to read a long comment.
But, could you read my comment in full?
You understand, it is slightly annoying to see someone answer you and missing the point because he read only the first line.

I read it, and, while you expressed your feelings about Asuka in 2.0, you didn't provide examples within the movie that lead to your conclusions. How exactly does Asuka feel like a more developed character in 2.0 than on 3.0? How does her depiction in 3.0 feel un-earned by the story?

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:It's kinda sad when you realize that since apparently Rebuild is the version Anno wanted to tell all along that him shafting all of the other characters in order to concentrate on his "totally-not-a-self-insert" character makes one cast NGE in a different light. Almost like he considers character development for side characters to be nothing more than padding the runtime of the episodes.

Could you site your source on that piece of Anno trivia?

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby CommanderFish » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:00 pm

Joseki wrote:Prove it if you can (and you can't, because it's impossible to prove that red is a better colour than green).

In the realm of characters as a whole, NGE Shinji and NTE Shinji are far more alike than they are different, and it is reasonable to compare them if you wanted to. Not saying I agree with Asuka'sBigBrother, though.
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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:09 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Could you site your source on that piece of Anno trivia?


There are a couple of statements that he has made that strongly imply this:

http://www.animenewsservice.com/archives-decx/
11-16-06 (9:42AM EST)—- Latest Rebuild Of Evangelion Details

The latest issue of the Japanese edition of Newtype Magazine includes many new details on Gainax’s upcoming Rebuild Of Evangelion movies:
– No longer constrained by technological limitation of 12 years ago, Director Hideaki Anno is said to be happy that he can finally recreate Eva “as he wanted it to be” in the beginning.


This is probably the ur-example that people give when they say that Anno has gone full-on George Lucas in that he seems to care more about the ability to exploit special effects than telling a creatively satisfying story while revisiting his old franchise.

The second one is from his statement announcing the Rebuild project:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070219023711/http://eva.yahoo.co.jp/gekijou/big_message.html

As the creator of this project, [I assure you that] a very new-feeling Evangelion world has been constructed.
For this purpose, we are not returning to our roots at Gainax. I have set up a production company and studio, and it is in this new setting that we will start again.
Without looking back, without admiration for the circumstances, we aim to walk towards the future.
Thankfully, we have gathered staff from the old series, new staff, and many other fantastic staff to work on this series.
We realize that we are creating something that will be better than the last series.


There's also this:

http://www.otakuusamagazine.com/evangelions-anno-gives-up-on-escapist-otaku-in-interview/

As for the previous Evangelion, many people took what I made as ‘entertainment’ and turned it into a ‘target of dependence.’ I wanted to take responsibility for those people becoming impudent.I wanted to bring the work back to the level of entertainment. However, I’ve started to pull back from that subject (criticizing ‘escapist otaku.’) Those kind of people don’t understand, no matter what you say. I finally realized there’s nothing you can do.”


The reading here is that he felt guilty of creating a series that people became overly obsessed by. But what were they obsessed by? The action scenes? Sure. The lore behind the series? Of course! The characters? Definitely! Now it's unhealthy to obsess over anything, but does give you a major clue into the overall source of the series' success.

This seems like pretty concrete evidence that he's never been satisfied with how NGE and EOE turned out and this whole endeavor has been motivated by the desire to make something that appeals more to what he wants to see out of Evangelion rather than anything else. Anno has said that the parts of Evangelion that he doesn't like are the parts that he's in. NGE was created directly after (and also during) a period where he had significant psychological issues and he used the series as his method of expunging all of his pent up frustrations. This in turn created characters who themselves had issues, and in turn made those characters feel more like real, flawed human beings.

NGE was a hit because, like all massively successful properties, it found a way to connect emotionally with an audience in an explosive fashion. Now, can a property connect that way because of the series' lore? Not really. How about with the action scenes? They may make you excited, but why? Because it's because of the characters involved in those scenes. We empathize with them and want to see what happens to them.

The simple fact is that there are many people who do not connect with the characters in Rebuild because they felt like shallow clones of their NGE counterparts for the first two films, and then completely changed in 3.0, which was a film that majorly focused on only 2 characters.

I do want to see how Anno decided to finally end this story once and for all, but I can't help feeling after watching 3/4 of this new saga that it has felt like a cross between being a huge missed opportunity or something completely extraneous and not needed.
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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Gendo'sPapa » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:19 am

Fascinating discussion. Don't agree with much of the statements about Rebuild being shallow but I can see and appreciate where people are coming from. Not something I'm going to get a passionate argument - this is one of those discussions that can go on for pages & ultimately means nothing because the only thing that matters is how YOU relate to the films as a personal experience - but fascinating nonetheless.

Though I will say regarding some of Anno's statements about Rebuild being Eva as "he wanted it to be" or it being "better", I'll just say as a part-time professional filmmaker that's pure PR. Over drinks, I've talked with dozens of filmmakers from around the globe all with different life stories and different standings in the field with vastly different views on all things social, political and artistic BUT the one thing we can ALL agree on is no matter where you're from - if you ask a filmmaker what their best movie is the answer will always be "the one I'm working on right now". Filmmaking is a hard and dirty job with long hours and one of the best ways to keep moving forward is to tell yourself "this is the best work I've ever done". There's very little room to be objective when making a film. I have to imagine that's multiplied by a great deal in the animation field. If someone asked Anno the right question about Love & Pop or His & Her Circumstances back in 1998 I'm positive he'd give a similar answer - "this will be better than Eva." If anyone ever cared to ask me that question about which of my films is the best - there is no reason too, I'm small fry - that would be my answer.

Also, I do strongly disagree with the talk of Anno going "full Lucas". It's up there with the empty "Anno is a troll" meme that often gets passed around as fact. To go "full Lucas" Anno would have to try to bury the original versions of NGE in shame due to the advances in special effects. If anything, Anno & Khara went beyond the regular expectations by releasing almost every cut imaginable of NGE, Death, & EOE on Blu-ray/DVD back in 2015. I'd also argue it's hard to say Anno has given up on character for FX when 3.0 is a stark statement of purpose - with an equally strong & divided fan response - of what the new films are about. The answer is Shinji. You don't have to like it but that's a movie that makes a strong take-it-or-leave-it stance. Same as his political allegory Godzilla film. I wouldn't be surprised if Anno continues down this path for the rest (or a lengthy) period of his career: films that have a very strong viewpoint, don't play games and work wonders for those on it's wavelength and is horrid for those who don't. Meanwhile, Lucas' entire body of work post the original Star Wars (he is not the director of Empire & most of the real creative decisions where made in his absence) has been wishy washy because it's all about the FX & not the text.

I also hold the stance that Anno is not going "full Lucas" but is more going "full Hitchcock" in that he's returned to one of his earlier works* after years of creative & personal experience and is approaching the same story from a much different perspective and going about telling the story in a vastly different way with a whole new endgame. It's not replacing one version trying to replace the other but rather they are complementary. Though I can understand people who want more Asuka or argue the character work in Rebuild is vapid (not how i feel but to each their own) won't agree with that viewpoint in the slightest and that's okay.

Anywho, those were my two cents.

*Hitchcock remade his 1934 film The Man Who Knew Too Much in 1956. His famous statement regarding the two films is the original was the work of an amateur hungry & relatively new to their craft while the 1956 version is the work of an established professional. While he's being extremely modest in the stance of himself as an amateur that's an astute observation and one that very much ties into Anno's relationship with the two Evas. The '34 version is a bit rough around the edges technically but works like gangbusters & while the '56 version is a far more polished works wonders in different ways from the first version but one could argue exists more for the opportunity it offered in creating beautifully constructed set pieces. Sound familiar?

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:18 am

Yea, these Lucas comparisons are unfounded.

For NGE: Anno made a single tv show and a great movie before he directed a watered down version of what he already made and then adding a subpar installment that worsened an already existing story.

For SW: Lucas oversaw two great movies(directed one, did the writing for another), a good movie, went out of form with 2 bad movies before churning out an award winning tv show solid addition in ROTS. He then followed up by making an even more prestigous tv show in SW:TCW.

Simply put, Lucas did a lot more for SW than Anno did for NGE.



Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:47 am

View Original PostJoseki wrote:No, just no.

Prove it if you can (and you can't, because it's impossible to prove that red is a better colour than green).

I never said I'm arguing anything more than my personal opinion, so enjoy:
Image

View Original PostJoseki wrote:Personally I think that a character able to chose but making the wrong choices because of things outside of his control

Except that both times Rebuild Shinji almost ended the world with choices, things were inside his control.
View Original PostJoseki wrote: is much more relatable and interesting than a characters that doesn't chose at all

Right, Shinji, didn't choose at all, aside from when he literally chose to save all life in the story's climax.

Honestly though, none of this really addresses how the two versions compare in terms of depth. NGE Shinji is deeper because they actually go in-depth and explore his character.

This is what I mean by in depth characterization:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TISVubPMeM

Or this:
https://ww3.gogoanime.io/evangelion-the ... de-1(24:40)

That's a level of depth Rebuild never comes close to reaching because it's too busy with sh!t like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAfD-YPmcfQ
Or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKLYA1xO9y8

This isn't to say NGE didn't have fanservice(albeit much less), but NGE wasn't supposed to be a "streamlined version" of existing material. Instead of keeping what was important, Rebuild trades characterization away rather than unneccesary fluff.

Additionally, Rebuild Shinji

A. Has significantly less character development than his NGE counterpart

B. Doesn't have an in depth-foil like Asuka which helps explore his character further.

Rebuild's decision to shun any real exploration of Asuka so that they could add a character who offers the story nothing in Mari consequently makes Shinji a weaker character as Asuka's relationship with Shinji was a key pillar of Shinji's original characterization. Shinji's relationships in rebuild comparatively have little to no depth which again, makes him weaker.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:55 am

Yeah, there's very little reason for filmmakers to make a movie unless they believe that it will be better than their last movie. After all, as soon as you believe that you've created the best movie of your career, then there's no need to make another movie. I still believe that (so far) NGE is Anno's best work, but I'm thankful that Anno himself doesn't believe that. If that were the case, he would have never made another project since Eva. I really enjoy Love & Pop as well as His & Her Circumstances. And as far as Shiro Sagisu is concerned, I think his best musical work with Anno was actually in The Secret of Blue Water. Sure, his more current work is more grandiose, and by some standards more impressive. But he had a very sincere charm with the small orchestra used for Nadia that I can rarely find captured in other, similar works of the time. I'm certainly glad Sagisu didn't stop after Nadia, or I never would have had gotten to listen to awesome, repurposed Nadia scores for Eva Q.

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:This is probably the ur-example that people give when they say that Anno has gone full-on George Lucas in that he seems to care more about the ability to exploit special effects than telling a creatively satisfying story while revisiting his old franchise.

I think much of the fans would rather George Lucas would go full Anno, and release every single version of the Original Star Wars movies onto Blu-ray, just like Anno did with D&R and EoE.

To the rest of your point, if I remember correctly, I don't think Anno was ever happy with NGE, even while he was directing it. I don't think that it was because of the lack of special effects or anything like that. NGE has some of the most impressive TV animation in 1995, which is quite an impressive feat in and of itself. Since there was nothing else in television at the time with which to compare his stunning production to (that is, if he had already reached the pinnacle of animation effects at the time), then why was Anno not happy with Eva during it's original production? Also, it's important to note that Anno himself never directly referred to special effect whenever he claimed that NTE would be better than NGE. (The quote you picked for your post specifically has the article's writer inferring special effects preferences onto the director's original statement. A statement which was cherry-picked for the sake of the writing of the article.) Instead, I think that Anno simply doesn't want to associate his wildly popular series with with the terrible emotions that he often experienced during the start of his career. Shortly after the original production was finished, Anno would often say that he was surprised anyone liked the original show because, "all of the characters were sick." He would also often seem to distance himself when referring to NGE at conventions or during interviews, saying that he "didn't realize how interesting [Eva] really was." I think much of NGE's production for Anno was a blur of unpleasant emotions, something that no healthy person wants to revisit. If all Anno is doing wth NTE is creating an Eva that he can enjoy as much as his fans enjoyed NGE, one without the negative association of a truly terrible part of his life, then that's okay with me. Anno wants to remember Eva as a project that launched his fresh new animation studio, and I don't want Anno to feel sad. And if that's what makes NTE "better than the original" for Anno, then so be it.

I too still prefer NGE more than NTE, though. It is, to this point, a far more impactful story.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:10 am

For SW, Lucas's two bad movies aren't overshadowing two award winning shows, or the 4 other movies of the saga.

For NGE, Anno, is literally replacing his great work of art with an inferior one.

Anno would do well to go "more Lucas",

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:19 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:For SW, Lucas's two bad movies aren't overshadowing two award winning shows, or the 4 other movies of the saga.

Not when you look at DVD sales. Special Editions completely overshadow the originals.

For NGE, Anno, is literally replacing his great work of art with an inferior one.

Not when you look at DVD sales. The originals completely over shadow the newer stuff. Heck, Evangelion: Death got a theatrical re-release a few years back, so you also have ticket sales to compare to.

Anno would do well to go "more Lucas",

Whatever floats your boat, man.
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EDIT: I think the major frustration of “Rebuild is literally replacing NGE” is uniquely a Western problem. In the USA, NGE has long since been out of print, shortly after the “Renewal” release in Japan. In Eva’s native country, however, both NGE and NTE are available in multiple formats, sometimes as a result of Anno’s invested interest in keeping the originals circulating. There’s no replacement going on by Anno, only a lack of adequate Funimation releases.

But anyway, I guess this has gone a bit off topic.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:34 am

Guy Nacks wrote:It's kinda sad when you realize that since apparently Rebuild is the version Anno wanted to tell all along that him shafting all of the other characters in order to concentrate on his "totally-not-a-self-insert" character makes one cast NGE in a different light. Almost like he considers character development for side characters to be nothing more than padding the runtime of the episodes.

Well, then I'm glad he was able to make the Evangelion he didn't want, because it is far superior to the Rebuilds in terms of story telling. While the effects are visually captivating and are extremely detailed with how things move compared to the anime, this increased focus on the effects (like Guy Nacks and others have mentioned) does bring the Rebuilds into the George Lucas School of how to add to your IP. The story does suffer from lack of a deep plot like that in the anime (or manga for that matter) because of lack of time to go into great detail on every character. Also, as Guy Nacks mentioned above, Anno regrets how people reacted and identified with the series, so his own regret and hopes of keeping that process from repeating have also damaged the story in some way or another, most notably Asuka, who in the series is a confident pushy girl on the outside, and a deeply scarred and psychological mess on par with Shinji (or perhaps even more fucked up) while in NTE she is just a bitch, because there is no expositive background to explain her characterization.

We also know from another thread that Tines linked in an above post that EoE hasn't aged as well as the series, and was Anno's first attempt to recton the series to fit his original vision, whatever that may be. Also, considering that Cowboy Bebop came out around the same time as NGE, Anno's excuse about special effects really doesn't fit that we'll considering Bebop's exquisite animations. Knowing all this is why I feel NTE can't live up to NGE because in some respects, it is more shallow than the original.

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:They should have just done a sequel or a prequel imo. That tends to be my stance in general though I'm sure there are exceptions.

As for the talks on prequels/sequels, the show wasn't really designed to be expanded like other properties such as ST and SW. It's a standalone story dealing with the War of the Angels and the circumstances leading up to instrumentality. So, doing a prequel doesn't really do much, and a sequel would undercut the poingent ending that EoTV and/or EoE gave us originally.
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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Joseki » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:18 am

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:This seems like pretty concrete evidence that he's never been satisfied with how NGE and EOE turned out and this whole endeavor has been motivated by the desire to make something that appeals more to what he wants to see out of Evangelion rather than anything else. Anno has said that the parts of Evangelion that he doesn't like are the parts that he's in. NGE was created directly after (and also during) a period where he had significant psychological issues and he used the series as his method of expunging all of his pent up frustrations. This in turn created characters who themselves had issues, and in turn made those characters feel more like real, flawed human beings.

NGE was a hit because, like all massively successful properties, it found a way to connect emotionally with an audience in an explosive fashion. Now, can a property connect that way because of the series' lore? Not really. How about with the action scenes? They may make you excited, but why? Because it's because of the characters involved in those scenes. We empathize with them and want to see what happens to them.


Your point here clashes with Anno's feelings about the three movies:

Anno in 2015 wrote:“…after it was released, I was broken. I fell into what’s called a depressive state, the natural result of having spent six years grinding down my soul making Eva again.”

Anno in 2016" wrote:“Evangelion can only be described as my soul. It’s a work that chips off parts of me. Up until then, after doing the third entry Evangelion: 3.0 You Can (Not) Redo, I thought I wasn’t going to make any more. At that time, I went into talks with Toho, and it saved me. I think this is how I’m able to keep making Evangelion. However, since it is a fact that I’m making everyone wait, I deeply apologize for that.”


Anno clearly is putting parts of himself in the movies, he's infact putting all of himself in the movies.

And NGE was a hit, but it wasn't an universally acclaimed anime, it was quite the opposite: one of the most divisive anime ever. People that connects with the characters love it, but there's an equally big amount of people that doesn't connect with the characters and doesn't love NGE.
Is that any different than the reactions about the movies? I don't think so. The movies are a hit too (especially Q) and the reactions were mixed. There's a group that connects to the new characters and a group that doesn't connect to the characters.

Image

To put it in graphical terms:

C is the audience of NGE/Rebuild
A is the audience that connected with NGE
B is the audience that connected with Rebuild
The parts of A and B that overlaps is the audience that connected with both

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:Except that both times Rebuild Shinji almost ended the world with choices, things were inside his control.

Right, Shinji, didn't choose at all, aside from when he literally chose to save all life in the story's climax.


This could potentially spin into a long tangent, but Shinji has made two choices (actually the movies tells us that people forced him into making those choices) ignoring the consequences of those choices because Gendo and Kaworu kept him ignorant for their benefict. The previous events teached him to chose (he doesn't choice against Bardiel and his hands were literally forced on the controls against his will resulting in what he wanted to avoid) and then he's exploited.

And yes he did made a choise at the end of EoE, but that was the final puzzle in his character development. During the course of NGE Shinji is passive and submissive, a concept that gets pushed to the maximum in Episode 25'.

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:Honestly though, none of this really addresses how the two versions compare in terms of depth. NGE Shinji is deeper because they actually go in-depth and explore his character.

This is what I mean by in depth characterization:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TISVubPMeM

Or this:
https://ww3.gogoanime.io/evangelion-the ... de-1(24:40)

That's a level of depth Rebuild never comes close to reaching because it's too busy with sh!t like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAfD-YPmcfQ
Or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKLYA1xO9y8

This isn't to say NGE didn't have fanservice(albeit much less), but NGE wasn't supposed to be a "streamlined version" of existing material. Instead of keeping what was important, Rebuild trades characterization away rather than unneccesary fluff.

Additionally, Rebuild Shinji

A. Has significantly less character development than his NGE counterpart

B. Doesn't have an in depth-foil like Asuka which helps explore his character further.

Rebuild's decision to shun any real exploration of Asuka so that they could add a character who offers the story nothing in Mari consequently makes Shinji a weaker character as Asuka's relationship with Shinji was a key pillar of Shinji's original characterization. Shinji's relationships in rebuild comparatively have little to no depth which again, makes him weaker.


First of all exploring something in depth doesn't make it deeper. Have you ever read a hermetic poem? Salvatore Quasimodo won a Nobel prize "for his lyrical poetry, which with classical fire expresses the tragic experience of life in our own times" and this is his most famous poem:

Salvatore Quasimodo wrote:Italian:

Ed è subito sera
Ognuno sta solo sul cuor della terra
trafitto da un raggio di sole
ed è subito sera


English:

And suddenly it's evening
Each of us is alone on the hearth of the earth
Pierced by a ray of sun
And suddenly it's evening


An almost unlimited amount of thesis has been made on those 4 lines of text.

Extensive monologues revealing the entire gamma of emotions and thoughts a character have is one way of telling a story, and showing a three small figures walking on a static background is another. Both works flawlessly and provoke strong emotions if done right, and this and this (or this) prove it.

And by the way you should compare similar part of a story. Episode 26 and EoE can be compared to parts or 3.0 and, when it will be released, 3.0+1.0 because they are the final parts of a story. The scenes of 2.0 you provided are probably similar to the episodes of NGE around Asuka's arrival and before Toji's incident inside Unit 03, and those scenes are very similar to Asuka making Shinji wear her plugsuit before a fight against an angle or Asuka flirting with Shinji talking about her chest while touching it.
The structure of both NGE and Rebuild is very similar from this point of view: the beginning has Shinji slowling accepting and managing the new obstacles, then the story takes a rapid turn into something similar to a slice of life comedy before taking another U turn into depression and despair because of characters being unable to communicate and poorly made decisions.

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:EDIT: I think the major frustration of “Rebuild is literally replacing NGE” is uniquely a Western problem. In the USA, NGE has long since been out of print, shortly after the “Renewal” release in Japan. In Eva’s native country, however, both NGE and NTE are available in multiple formats, sometimes as a result of Anno’s invested interest in keeping the originals circulating. There’s no replacement going on by Anno, only a lack of adequate Funimation releases.


I'm quite sure that the problem is mostly related to the US and UK and not widely spread in the western world, NGE is still printed in most of the European countries.
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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:47 pm

^ I’m noticing that anytime Anno decides to focus less on the waifu material and focus more on Shinji, things get dicey with American/Western audiences.

EoTV literally puts in plain writing that it can only really focus on Shinji by Ep 26, and suddenly some people feel like it was an incomplete ending.

EoE also tosses aside the waifus by Ep 26’, and suddenly people complain that it’s a “retcon.”

NTE uses all of the waifus only as supporting cast members and focuses entirely on Shinji as the main character, and people complain that the story as a whole is somehow incomplete.

Conclusion: Eva is a story about waifus. Don’t change the waifus.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:37 pm

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Conclusion: Eva is a story about waifus. Don’t change the waifus.

This seems appropriate considering your conclusions:
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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:33 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:As for the talks on prequels/sequels, the show wasn't really designed to be expanded like other properties such as ST and SW. It's a standalone story dealing with the War of the Angels and the circumstances leading up to instrumentality. So, doing a prequel doesn't really do much, and a sequel would undercut the poingent ending that EoTV and/or EoE gave us originally.

It doesn't undercut the show as much as literally replacing it with a worse version of it's self.



Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:36 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Not when you look at DVD sales. Special Editions completely overshadow the originals.

Seriously?

I understand the special editions were mostly terrible, but in the grand scheme of things, they're incredibly minor changes which don't fundamentally change the story in any way. Special Editions can't overshadow movies they barely change.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:46 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:EoE also tosses aside the waifus by Ep 26’, and suddenly people complain that it’s a “retcon.”
No, it's the DC episodes, especially 22', which did the retrospective changes to the continuity. The magic word for EoE is "concurrency".
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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:22 pm

^ Ah, that is an important distinction. My mistake.

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Seriously?

I understand the special editions were mostly terrible, but in the grand scheme of things, they're incredibly minor changes which don't fundamentally change the story in any way. Special Editions can't overshadow movies they barely change.

I’m sorry, I thought we were discussing the act of directors literally replacing things. Special Editions count, regardless of perceived quality.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Gendo'sPapa » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:13 pm

Apparently, NGE is playing on Japanese TV next month at a choice time. I think EOE has played multiple times on Japanese TV this year alone. So any & all claims that Rebuild "replacing" NGE seems hyperbolic at best. The new films have simply used the world of the original narrative as a starting point to tell a new story that zigs where the original zagged & will most likely end up at a completely different endpoint than the original. It's not trying to replace NGE with the same experience, it's something new. You can dislike the new films - perfectly justifiable viewpoint - but Khara certainly isn't burying the originals. They openly want the two to live from here on out side-by-side. The film's official website even includes NGE as part of the color cycle logo & is one of the key reason why fans keep saying it's all one narrative (which I doubt).

Original Star Wars meanwhile has been completely replaced. A whole generation has grown up on the changed versions of the film. It's not the same film & has been altered with hundreds of new effects, sound changes, digitally replaced actors, editing nuances, altered performances & more. Unless you have a VHS copy of the film purchased in the 80s you can't see Han shooting first*. Pretty much everyone who grew up on the prequels & the new franchise has never really seen the original Star Wars.

Again, it's okay to not like or even hate the Rebuilds but it's insincere to claim one thing (Rebuild is aiming to completely replace NGE with a lesser product & that's bad) because it supports your thesis and then turn around to justify an actual example of what you're fighting against (the original releases of the Star Wars trilogy have literally been erased from existence at this point in time, they are not available for viewing). We should leave the obvious warping of facts to politicians.

*Not a Star Wars fans but having Greedo shoot first isn't a minor change. It's a massive change in who the character of Han Solo & changes the audiences relationship to who that character is. I get why fans are angry about that one. It would be like if Anno went back to the original NGE negatives & from now on all available copies of the show had Shinji ask Asuka if she wants to kiss when they're home alone in Episode 15. It's a minor technical change but has far wider implications on the character dynamics from there on out.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:44 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:^ Ah, that is an important distinction. My mistake.
I’m sorry, I thought we were discussing the act of directors literally replacing things. Special Editions count, regardless of perceived quality.

We are, and the special editions replace a great degree less than the Rebuilds do.



Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:02 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Apparently, NGE is playing on Japanese TV next month at a choice time. I think EOE has played multiple times on Japanese TV this year alone. So any & all claims that Rebuild "replacing" NGE seems hyperbolic at best. The new films have simply used the world of the original narrative as a starting point to tell a new story that zigs where the original zagged & will most likely end up at a completely different endpoint than the original. It's not trying to replace NGE with the same experience, it's something new. You can dislike the new films - perfectly justifiable viewpoint - but Khara certainly isn't burying the originals. They openly want the two to live from here on out side-by-side. The film's official website even includes NGE as part of the color cycle logo & is one of the key reason why fans keep saying it's all one narrative (which I doubt).

A fair point, though I wasn't really considering the availability of the original source material, more what the directors were doing. And whether or not NGE is available, as Rebuild literally occupies the same point of time as NGE, it's a replacement from a storytelling point of view.
View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Original Star Wars meanwhile has been completely replaced. A whole generation has grown up on the changed versions of the film. It's not the same film & has been altered with hundreds of new effects, sound changes, digitally replaced actors, editing nuances, altered performances & more.

Absolutely none of what you listed fundamentally changes the story which still has the same major plot points and essentially the same exact plot and characters. It's incredibly insincere to claim these technical details completely replace the movies.
View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote: Again, it's okay to not like or even hate the Rebuilds but it's insincere to claim one thing (Rebuild is aiming to completely replace NGE with a lesser product & that's bad) because it supports your thesis and then turn around to justify an actual example of what you're fighting against (the original releases of the Star Wars trilogy have literally been erased from existence at this point in time, they are not available for viewing). We should leave the obvious warping of facts to politicians.

Spare me the ad hominems.

Regardless of whether or not the original story is available or not, Rebuild is a story that takes place in the exact same setting as it's predecessor and hence it's purpose as a story is to replace NGE.

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:The rebuilds change pivotal aspects of the story, the special editions at worst change details in how the story is portrayed.
*Not a Star Wars fans but having Greedo shoot first isn't a minor change. It's a massive change in who the character of Han Solo & changes the audiences relationship to who that character is. I get why fans are angry about that one. It would be like if Anno went back to the original NGE negatives & from now on all available copies of the show had Shinji ask Asuka if she wants to kiss when they're home alone in Episode 15. It's a minor technical change but has far wider implications on the character dynamics from there on out.


Yea, no. If you think that scene fundamentally changes Han Solo's character than you're not giving Han Solo enough credit. Han Solo is still characterized virtually identically between the two versions of the movies.

A more comparable example for the hypothetical you drew would be if the scene between Luke and Vader before they enter the emperor's throne room was removed from ROTJ. That is a scene which is a significant part of Vader's character arc and contributed significantly to his characterization.

You're trying to equate a repainted doornail to removing a room from a house.

If you think the special editions made the OT greatly inferior, you're selling the OT incredibly short.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:52 am

Just so we can judge your ability to discern character development within fictional narratives without presenting an argument in a way that involved ad hominem attacks, exactly how does changing Ham Solo’s behavior as influenced by the nature of his core appeal as a character in his introductory scene not actually change the nature of his core appeal as a character in his introductory scene?

How does that not influence the reading of the nature of his core appeal as a character in the rest of the movie?

How can you say that the directors of Eva replaced NGE when the directors actually actively bought the rights from Gainax in order to keep the original NGE circulating in its best possible quality? (That in particular seems like an internal contradiction in the argument your making.)

How does any of this prove that NTE is ultimately shallow?

Please be detailed, show your work, and use citations for your sources whenever possible.


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