Rebuild is shallow tangent

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: A decade has gone by since the first Rebuild film (Jo)....

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:21 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:It's possible to reboot an existing franchise whilst telling a very different story, with Captain Harlock as an example accomplishing this several times

Sure it's possible, but if you're just going to replace a very well written story with a significantly worse version of it, it's not a very good idea.

In general, you should build off good stories, not in place of them.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Nahash » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:56 pm

That's just reiterating the complaints of those who want NTE to be a rehash of NGE because they lack the imagination to see beyond that. It isn't; things are different because it's a different story.

The problem is that it is not the case.
Rebuild, especially the third film, makes a lot of reference to the original series, I think in particular the character of Kaworu. You can (not) understand his actions (his willingness to help Shinji) and his aspects (especially christlike) only if you have already seen the original series. Otherwise, it's a very empty and incoherent character.

And the old "Asuka is not as fully developed a character as in NGE" is an old bit of nonsense that is probably never going to go away. Ah well. Asuka was arguably the second lead in NGE. That's not the case in Rebuild, she's 100% a supporting character (one who - like Misato - actually showcases some subtle character animation acting in 3.33 which is a first for Eva) & anyones inability to reconcile with that is them brining their own bias to the new films. Asuka has shown a perfectly fine character arch befitting her role as a supporting character. But, despite her prominence in marketing & all in the end she is still just a supporting character this time around. If one had to rank the characters in terms of importance to the story being told she'd probably rank 5th or 6th overall, a major change from her status as essentially the co-lead of the original anime.

I think the problem of incoherence is not between NGE and RoE, but inside Rebuild itself. It seems that Anno doesn't know what to do with Asuka's character. On the one hand, we have a character with a beginning of development in the second movie. And on the other, a character very conceptual and very little developed in the third movie. It's almost like there are two Asukas in Rebuild.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:28 pm

View Original PostNahash wrote:I think the problem of incoherence is not between NGE and RoE, but inside Rebuild itself. It seems that Anno doesn't know what to do with Asuka's character. On the one hand, we have a character with a beginning of development in the second movie. And on the other, a character very conceptual and very little developed in the third movie. It's almost like there are two Asukas in Rebuild.

How do we have two different versions of Asuka in NTE? Asuka's reaction to Shinji destroying the world in Eva Q seems in line with the type of character that was established in Eva Ha. She was established as a character who took no nonsense in Eva Ha, and in Eva Q she still doesn't take any nonsense. Were you expecting her to somehow suddenly take nonsense in Eva Q? If so, why?

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:In general, you should build off good stories, not in place of them.

...But, isn't the latter what a reboot does? What it inherently is? What it's very existence is meant to be?

Did you like the Gus Van Sant shot-for-shot remake of Psycho, too?

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Nahash » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:28 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:How do we have two different versions of Asuka in NTE? Asuka's reaction to Shinji destroying the world in Eva Q seems in line with the type of character that was established in Eva Ha. She was established as a character who took no nonsense in Eva Ha, and in Eva Q she still doesn't take any nonsense. Were you expecting her to somehow suddenly take nonsense in Eva Q? If so, why?


...But, isn't the latter what a reboot does? What it inherently is? What it's very existence is meant to be?

Did you like the Gus Van Sant shot-for-shot remake of Psycho, too?


The problem that I point with Asuka's character does not have much to do with the storyline.
It's something much more subtle. When I say that the Asuka character in the second movie is not the same as the one of the third movie, I mean it's not the same kind of character.
When I say that, I do not want to talk about the main / supporting character difference, but a difference of conception.
There is different kind of character, some want to be original, some want to be deep, some on the contrary, are limited to their concept.
Contrary to popular belief, the main character is not necessarily the most developed character of the plot, there are main characters undeveloped and they can be very good. And on the contrary, there are supporting characters with deep characterization.
To put it simply, the character of Asuka in the second film is a developed character, it is a character whose psychology evolves over the plot, in the beginning it behaves like a bitch, in the end she ended up befriending Shinji.
While the character of Asuka in the third is nothing more than a being animated by hatred and anger. For me, the problem here is not that she is a being animated by hatred and anger. But that it is limited to that, in other words, it is no longer the character who evolves that we had in the second film, but a character who is limited to this concept.
That's why I say there are two Asuka.
After, I do not think that the conception of a character is completely immutable. I think it can evolved. But for that it must be justified, at the level of the background. But also at the level of the plot. And the problem is that I do not see anything at the level of the plot that justifies this sudden change of conception. On the contrary, the second film seemed to announce a more in-depth development for the next film.
To summarize, the fundamental problem is not so much the different conception of the Asuka of the second film and the Asuka of the third film, as the lack of link between the two conceptions.

To draw a parallel, we can say that the character of Asuka Rebuild suffers from the same problem as the Rei of the original series. Its development was thought in the short term, but not in the long term. This makes the character has a real crossing of the desert. For Rei it was the middle of the series. For Asuka, we can hope, this is the third movie.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:31 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:
...But, isn't the latter what a reboot does? What it inherently is? What it's very existence is meant to be?

Hence why, IMO, you should only reboot if

A. the original story is bad

B. The animation/film is incredibly outdated(in which case your reboot should be virtually identical)

C. You reboot significantly deepens or enriches the original story

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Settie » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:53 pm

One thing to keep in mind is that 3.0 is heavily heavily biased towards Shinji's POV. So the sudden distinct apparent differences in characters (mainly Asuka and Misato) are due to that restrictive perspective. We don't know much of what happened between 2.0 and 3.0 nor do we know what happened after Shinji left for NERV in 3.0. That lack of information is something i believe was done on purpose to feel jarring and alien, suddenly these characters we knew both from OG NGE and in the previous films come off as different and alienating.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:18 pm

View Original PostSettie wrote:One thing to keep in mind is that 3.0 is heavily heavily biased towards Shinji's POV.

It's a shame that Rebuild Shinji is a significantly less well written version of his NGE counterpart.


Hardly the only reason, but a great deal of that is likely because his foil, Asuka, is essentially disregarded and lacks any of the depth she used to have.

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Re: A decade has gone by since the first Rebuild film (Jo)....

Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:40 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Except it isn'tIn the end Anno has the right to do whatever he wants, but we also retain the right to criticize the hell out of it if what he does is bad. And that's exactly what's happening here.

Kinda like those Star Wars prequels everyone seems to dislike so much.
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Re: A decade has gone by since the first Rebuild film (Jo)....

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:28 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Kinda like those Star Wars prequels everyone seems to dislike so much.

Not at all. The prequels are still new stories, not reboots. They don't take the place of already established lore, they build on it.

The new Disney trilogy is a better pseudo example because the premise of TFA essentially renders the original saga's conclusion meaningless and basically sets the universe up in the exact same place it was back in ANH.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:13 am

I was going off more that we're criticizing what Anno's done wrong and the voicing of dislike or preference to the original , like Lucas did with the prequels, and as you pointed out, what Disney is doing with the sequels/soft reboot, or for that matter the JJ ST films, and so on and so forth.

But you are correct that TFA does exactly what 1.11 does by hitting the reset button. And as retelling a story goes, the Rebuilds do fall short off the original only because the original exists to compare it to. If NTE were the only Evangelion property in existence, then it would viewed in a better light as there is no shadow that can be cast upon it from an older show, similar to how Star Trek and Star Wars fans knock things around about the different properties within their own fandom. Something came before it that this new thing doesn't match up to, so it's different and bad.

And as reboots go, I would have much preferred an anime adaptation of the manga rather than the rebuilds. It would have been more enjoyable, at least to me considering I did like the manga a bit more than the anime
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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:34 am

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:44 am

View Original PostNahash wrote:The problem that I point with Asuka's character does not have much to do with the storyline.

Does she have to be? She's no more of a main character in NTE than Ritsuko is. She's a supporting cast member, and nothing about the NTE films suggests otherwise. Shikinami fulfills that supporting character role flawlessly.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Ray » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:59 am

I'll say this.

The whole point of the series is to streamline the story so it focuses exclusively on Shinji's character. It was more apparent in 3.33 than in the first two, but the whole series kind've had to 'dumb-down' the characters and plot from the original series for the sake of both runtime and the sake of the audience.

I've gotten on the Rebuilds case for 'not having enough time' to tell the kind of story I wanted to tell. I wanted to see more of the characters I saw in the original series, but the Rebuilds literally couldn't give us that because of the Runtime of 90-120 minute movies.

at the end of it all. None of the characters matter except Shinji. Seeing them change the way they did. was shocking. But ultimately it doesn't matter as the story is meant to focus exclusively ON Shinji as a character. Shinji's meant to be horrified by seeing the people HE knew intimately change so much, abandon him, mistreat him, etc. We only know them by their interactions in Shinji's life and the occasional glimpse into their lives.

We're only meant to care for them, as far as they pertain to Shinji's Story.
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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:04 am


Thank you for that, I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it.
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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:08 am

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:I was going off more that we're criticizing what Anno's done wrong and the voicing of dislike or preference to the original , like Lucas did with the prequels

Fair enough.
View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:. If NTE were the only Evangelion property in existence, then it would viewed in a better light as there is no shadow that can be cast upon it from an older show,

Probably, but that's what happens when you do reboots. It's also why I tend to be nervous whenever someone attempts rebooting a memorable or special franchise. It rarely goes well.
View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:And as reboots go, I would have much preferred an anime adaptation of the manga rather than the rebuilds. It would have been more enjoyable, at least to me considering I did like the manga a bit more than the anime


They should have just done a sequel or a prequel imo. That tends to be my stance in general though I'm sure there are exceptions.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:14 am

It's kinda sad when you realize that since apparently Rebuild is the version Anno wanted to tell all along that him shafting all of the other characters in order to concentrate on his "totally-not-a-self-insert" character makes one cast NGE in a different light. Almost like he considers character development for side characters to be nothing more than padding the runtime of the episodes.

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:Hence why, IMO, you should only reboot if

A. the original story is bad

B. The animation/film is incredibly outdated(in which case your reboot should be virtually identical)

C. You reboot significantly deepens or enriches the original story


Totally agree here, and Rebuild only got significantly more interesting in the 3rd film because they actually made something significantly different than the original series.
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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:30 am

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:

Totally agree here, and Rebuild only got significantly more interesting in the 3rd film because they actually made something significantly different than the original series.

Significantly different isn't the same as better. They made things different by stripping away all of Shinji's heroism, simplifying the fck out of the supporting cast, and opting for cool action scenes rather than storytelling or characterization.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:40 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Significantly different isn't the same as better. They made things different by stripping away all of Shinji's heroism, simplifying the fck out of the supporting cast, and opting for cool action scenes rather than storytelling or characterization.


Again, I'm pretty much in agreement here.

I've been pretty vocal on this forum about my dislike of 3.0 for several years, but one of the only positive things about the film was that it took a big risk and finally shook things up...which is something that frankly should have happened back with 1.0.
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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:44 am

View Original PostRay wrote:
at the end of it all. None of the characters matter except Shinji. Seeing them change the way they did. was shocking. But ultimately it doesn't matter as the story is meant to focus exclusively ON Shinji as a character. Shinji's meant to be horrified by seeing the people HE knew intimately change so much, abandon him, mistreat him, etc. We only know them by their interactions in Shinji's life and the occasional glimpse into their lives.

We're only meant to care for them, as far as they pertain to Shinji's Story.

The thing is, rebuild Shinji is also a very cheap and shallow version of his NGE counterpart.

Also the whole "short run-time defense" doesn't work when you're going to add characters to your story who serve no purpose in it and don't improve your story in any way:

https://tenor.com/view/rebuild-of-evang ... if-7172916


Also, if you're just going to give us a shallower version of NGE, then why even bother with the reboot?

And honestly, 3 90-120 minute movies are more than enough to develop a deep protagonist and a deep supporting cast. The reason why Revuild fails to this is because it spends too much time focusing on action scenes and fan service rather than focusing on actual storytelling or characterization.

If you're going to streamline something, you get rid of non-essential fluff, not fundamentally pivotal aspects of the show, like Asuka and Shinji's relationship, or the symbolism of AT fields. If the best you can hope for is a watered down version of the original, then you shouldn't be rebooting anything in the first place.



by Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:47 am

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:Again, I'm pretty much in agreement here.

I've been pretty vocal on this forum about my dislike of 3.0 for several years, but one of the only positive things about the film was that it took a big risk and finally shook things up...which is something that frankly should have happened back with 1.0.

I disagree, there was no need to shake anything up. They should have just made a sequel or a prequel building off the lore or made an entirely new story.

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Re: Rebuild is shallow tangent

Postby Joseki » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:40 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:The thing is, rebuild Shinji is also a very cheap and shallow version of his NGE counterpart.


No, just no.

Prove it if you can (and you can't, because it's impossible to prove that red is a better colour than green).

Personally I think that a character able to chose but making the wrong choices because of things outside of his control is much more relatable and interesting than a characters that doesn't chose at all, but I won't say that one is better than the other, they serve different purposes for different reasons.

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:And honestly, 3 90-120 minute movies are more than enough to develop a deep protagonist and a deep supporting cast. The reason why Revuild fails to this is because it spends too much time focusing on action scenes and fan service rather than focusing on actual storytelling or characterization.


This is factually wrong. In 3.0's case the amount of screentime dedicated to battle scenes is roughly 1/3 of the movie, with the other 2/3 spent on Shinji's development (extremely well thought development).

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:I disagree, there was no need to shake anything up. They should have just made a sequel or a prequel building off the lore or made an entirely new story.


The author felt otherwise, it's enough of a reason, especially considering that they didn't went full George Lucas changing the original product (actually they already did, but no one ever says something about it, even if it makes the original two final episodes even more disconnected than they were originally).

I strongly disagree about a prequel or a sequel. The show is named Evangelion, so there has to be Evangelions in it, and it's about Shinji's development. For prequels and sequels spin offs are enough.
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