Mari Breaking the Loop?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby anonymaus » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:36 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:The idea that it has been modified at all is pure conjecture. And it's not even clear to me that Mari fits the definition of a spy (nor that sabotage is the job of a spy in any case).

Both are so clear that I legitimately don't understand how you can fail to see them unless you're willfully denying them.
Evageeks has to be the worst place on the internet for discussing the rebuilds, there is some kind of irrational aversion to new ideas on this website that makes people go through insane logical hoops to justify keeping their pet theory intact

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:54 am

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:Evageeks has to be the worst place on the internet for discussing the rebuilds, there is some kind of irrational aversion to new ideas on this website that makes people go through insane logical hoops to justify keeping their pet theory intact

I, at least, don't have a pet theory - do you? My approach is to do my best to find a logically consistent interpretation of what we actually see and hear rather than what might possibly have happened out of sight. There is no special value in a new idea if it is not well supported in the films.
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:18 am

I’m not against new ideas. Those ideas just need to be verified within the text, and not be contingent upon what some other future text might say. I personally am entertaining the theory that Mari is a miniaturized, self-sustaining, fully autonomous Evangelion Unit. (This is why she likes LCL so much.) You don’t see me trying to prove it with movies that haven’t come out yet. That would be ridiculous. (Heck, at this point it’s not a theory inasmuch as it’s just a thought.)

Shinji’s SDAT player seems to be as important to the narrative as Gendo’s broken glasses. Rei cherished both objects earlier on in the narrative based on the emotional connection she has with the previous owner of said objects, and then abandons them at some point in the story for various reasons. I suspect that the real narrative payoff in Shin Eva will be when Rei II returns and has to decide between Gendo and Shinji again, which would probably be revealed by which object she gravitates towards first. Based solely on what’s been established in the narrative thus far, this is the most likely role of either objects in the story. Everything has only been used as a fun metatextual wink to the audience.

Mari's real role in NTE is to be the first miniaturized, self-sustaining, fully autonomous Evangelion Unit. (This is why she likes LCL so much.) Just wait until Shin Eva comes out. Then you’ll see just how right I really am. :wink:

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:20 am

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:Those 'coincidences' are foreseen matters in the dead sea scrolls. Did you forget SEELE has knowledge of the arrival of angels?


The Dead Sea Scrolls have always struck me as being more of a guide than a set of precise predictions. All Seele knew was that the Angels would be coming, and the various ways to initiate an impact. They didn't have specifics about the Angels, or the exact dates of their arrivals. If they did, why would they let Gendo, the man they employ to head the fight against the Angels, go to the moon when an Angel's arrival was imminent? Why let 03 be infected?

[quote[I don't know what she did to it, or anything about its nature. It is clearly more than an audio playback device. That's the whole reason Mari targeted it in the first place.[/quote]

We've never seen the SDAT do anything but play music. The only reasons it's important to the plot are that Shinji uses it to distract himself from reality, and he attaches sentiment to it.

She didn't just randomly parachute onto Shinji. Mari is a spy character, sabotaging things is in her nature.


It's possible that she placed a listening device on it, but I don't see how that breaks any time loops.

But hey, maybe I'm biased... I get that you want NGE to connect to RoE, but personally, I prefer the idea of it being a completely different retelling. No time loops or anything.
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:21 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Mari's real role in NTE is to be the first miniaturized, self-sustaining, fully autonomous Evangelion Unit. (This is why she likes LCL so much.) Just wait until Shin Eva comes out. Then you’ll see just how right I really am. :wink:


Shin Eva looks really damn good so far.

Image
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Godzilla VS Evangelion: Who Will Know?

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:40 am

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:Shin Eva looks really damn good so far.

Image

I need those things.

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby anonymaus » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:12 am

The idea that Mari has tinkered with the SDAT, likely to further her goals, is very likely. I explained why thoroughly back on page 1.
And it's an interesting idea which could lead to rewarding directions of thought. Good discussion of Evangelion theories happens when participants are acting as collaborators and not 'lawyers' for their own ideas. Evageeks has a pseudo political thing happening where facts which might contradict their theories are denied. It really holds the site back. You'll learn much more if you're excited by different opinions instead of being afraid of them.

Some of you have spent literal years never accepting an idea about Evangelion which came from another person. Don't you think it's likely that you're spending too much mental energy propping up the beautiful integrity of the ideas you hold now, and not enough energy exploring exciting new possibilities? I don't think there is anyone anywhere who has the whole truth of all that happens in Evangelion.

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:18 am

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:The idea that Mari has tinkered with the SDAT, likely to further her goals, is very likely. I explained why thoroughly back on page 1.


But how would tinkering with a music player break any time loops? And what evidence is there for a time loop?

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:Evageeks has a pseudo political thing happening where facts which might contradict their theories are denied. It really holds the site back. You'll learn much more if you're excited by different opinions instead of being afraid of them.


Okay then. Give me proof that the SDAT player has any significance other than as a sentimental item for Shinji, and as a tool to escape reality. Give me proof that the rebuild films are a continuation of the series.

Because I am interested in the ideas you're presenting - why else would I be posting in this thread?
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby anonymaus » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:20 am

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:Okay then. Give me proof that the SDAT player has any significance other than as a sentimental item for Shinji, and as a tool to escape reality. Give me proof that the rebuild films are a continuation of the series.

I already talked plenty about the SDAT in previous posts. As for the idea that rebuild is a sequel, it's an old theory with plenty of evidence.
Here's an image, not mine, on the subject: https://i.imgur.com/uON8u9Y.jpg

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:24 am

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:I already talked plenty about the SDAT in previous posts. As for the idea that rebuild is a sequel, it's an old theory with plenty of evidence.
Here's an image, not mine, on the subject: https://i.imgur.com/uON8u9Y.jpg


But many of the differences between NGE and RoE occur well before Mari has any chance to modify the SDAT. If there was a loop that was broken, it was broken well before Mari had any chance to.
My fanfics:
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Godzilla VS Evangelion: Who Will Know?

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:59 am

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:Evageeks has a pseudo political thing happening where facts which might contradict their theories are denied. It really holds the site back. You'll learn much more if you're excited by different opinions instead of being afraid of them.

EvaGeeks is a platform where anyone who chooses can put forward any idea for consideration by their peers - as you are doing. Sadly, your response to criticism appears to be to insult those who don't accept your theory on the basis that you have not yet provided adequate proof of it; this is not a sound basis for improving people's opinion of it.
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby Joseki » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:37 am

In my opinion the idea of Mari being the catalyst for a radically new ending is valid.

We know that Anno wanted a brand new ending from the very beginning, and we also know that Mari was needed to break the old Eva and to go in new directions, so suggesting that Mari will be a key player in 3.0+1.0 seems pretty reasonable to me, especially considering that she is well informed of what is going on in 2.0 and 3.0 (or at least she can deal with everything in the same way Gendo can).

However I don't think that she orchestrated or executed some Gendo-like masterplan for 14 years, she doesn't seem to be that type of character.
What I think she could do is act like "glue" keeping Shinji, Rei, Asuka and Misato united (she already acted like a peacekeeper in 3.0).

On a fundamental level EoE is simply a story about a group of characters splitting and going heads down in different directions hurting each other before being forcedly reuinited by third impact.
Sometimes all it takes to salvage a relationship is looking at things from a broader prospective, realizing where you are wrong and what you could do in a different way. If Shinji, or any of the character, isn't able to do so because they are consumed by their own personal suffering, then Mari would fit pretty well in that role I think.

Metaphorically, or even literally if a time loop is really involved, she could have a role in breaking the loop, and it wouldn't require the SDAT being anything more than a beautiful symbolic element in the story.
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:26 am

View Original PostJoseki wrote:In my opinion the idea of Mari being the catalyst for a radically new ending is valid.

Anno even said as much. But I just don't see that S-DAT being a necessary part of that process.
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:24 pm

Arima and Miyazawa broke the loop in Eva with Kare Kano music in Eva Jo. That is all.

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby Settie » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:45 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:I already talked plenty about the SDAT in previous posts. As for the idea that rebuild is a sequel, it's an old theory with plenty of evidence.
Here's an image, not mine, on the subject: https://i.imgur.com/uON8u9Y.jpg


The issue with using similar scenes and shots is that there really is no way to discern which one would be "legit" sequel proof or just NTE using the same scenes and shots with better animation. NTE is filled whith near/identical NGE scenes and shots, so they can be all proof of sequel or simply updated versions for a new continuity, and figuring which one is which leads to rabbit holes and arbitrary scene selection.

Like take this video on the comparison of the Unit-1 vs Zeruel battle, are all those similar shots proof of sequel or updates for the NTE?

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:44 pm

Honestly, the biggest, in-universe strike against Sequel/Loop Theory as portrayed in that image is the fact that all of the adult characters call the Impact that turned oceans into blood “Second Impact,” which all of the characters agree happened 15 years before Eva Jo. Seeing as how this means that there were blue oceans in Misato and Kaji’s living memory (Kaji even exposits upon this fact in Eva Ha), it’s very unlikely that the red oceans are evidence of New Theatrical Evangelion being Neon Genesis Evangelion TV series’ sequel.

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Postby cyharding » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:50 pm

^I think the main problem is that some people are trying to explain events in NME using NGE's rules and worldview (it does explain the initial reactions to the events of 3.0), but that's forcing a square peg in a round hole.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:59 am

^ Well, even TV Tropes makes this mistake, stating that NTE is impossible to understand unless the audience has already seen the original TV series. First of all, the original TV series loves to go as long as possible without explaining anything. As a result, there aren't any real explicit explanations until EoE; so really the audience would have had to have seen the final original movie in order to use NGE world-building to explain NTE plot points. But, at the same time, waiting until the very last minute to explain everything seems to be the constant element of Anno's Eva narratives. So really, just like how viewers of NGE would have to wait until EoE before everything his explained, viewers of the newer NTE series would have to wait for the same approximate thing in Shin Eva. But since NGE came first and all of the Tropers on TV Tropes are really just there to have fun and not be patient about things, they'll post anything that categorizes their nonsense more "neatly" in the fasest possible way. (Seriously, half of the material in their main trope page for NTE should be on their "WMG" pages instead.)

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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby ArvisTaljik » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:30 am

I don't want to try and "extend" the argument for nor against the sequel/loop theory but I'll just toss my $0.02 in here.

Having watched the entire TV series and Rebuild and read a lot of the mangas, there is nothing that I see in Rebuild that leads me to think of it as a sequel.

IMHO, it is more likely that Rebuild is to NGE what the 2009 Star Trek is to The Original Series; it's a reboot set in an alternate universe. Same characters, same premise, most of the same life choices with a few small variations and then there's a single grand divergence point at which the two separate. [cough] Zeruel [/cough]

I'm going to add to this that NGE may have very well looked more like what we see in Rebuild if the visual production technology and 3D rendering we have today was available back when NGE was first created. To be entirely fair, the visual differences we see in the animation, mech and angel designs, and even the backgrounds is due purely to the advancement of 3D rendering technology and Anno being able to do things that he probably wanted to do in NGE but couldn't due to the conventional animation capabilities they had at the time. In Rebuild, Tokyo-III and the entire Geofront is rendered almost entirely in 3D in most shots and gives Anno and his creative team MUCH more lattitude to create stunning visuals simply by repositioning the camera in 3D and re-rendering the scene instead of having to re-draw the entire scene from scratch to show a different view.

Conclusion: Rebuild IS NGE if NGE had been done with today's technology.
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Re: Mari Breaking the Loop?

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Postby Archangel » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:36 am

"Conclusion: Rebuild IS NGE if NGE had been done with today's technology."

Hear hear!

As a wise old Dane once said... "let it go".

And by that I mean the series.

Let NGE go... at least when discussing Rebuild.

Seriously; there's liking something and then there's this... being such a fanboy that you can't enjoy the reboot without somehow linking it, in-universe to the original is sad.

Y'know; it's ok to like Rebuild without it being a sequel to NGE.

Liking Rebuild does not invalidate the existence of NGE.

NGE will always exist. It'll always be the original.

There are SO many unexplainable, in-universe inconsistencies between the original and Rebuild that it is literally impossible for Rebuild to exist in the same universe as NGE...

Here's a whole bunch;

Yui Ayanami vs Yui Ikari
Yui takes Gendou's last name in Rebuild vs Gendou taking Yui's last name in NGE.
Asuka Langley Shikinami vs Asuka Langley Soryu.
Mari... vs... ?
Shikinami is a Euro Air Force Captain and a fighter pilot vs Soryu being college student.
Shikinami is confident in her own abilities but is socially awkward/reclusive in Rebuild vs Soryu having a severe anxiety disorder which she covers up be trying to act like an adult in NGE.
Shinji hates Gendou in Rebuild vs Shinji being wishy washy with his feelings in NGE.
Evangelion unit 02 has red blood in Rebuild vs Unit 02 has purple blood in NGE
2nd impact has 4 Adams and 4 spears in Rebuild vs 1 adam and 1 spear.
The oceans turned red during 2nd impact in Rebuild vs the oceans not changing colour during 2nd Impact in NGE.
Evangelions Units 05, 08 and 13 and Mk 06 and 09 are individual Eva's with their own unique designs in Rebuild vs Evangelions 05, 06, 08, 09 and 13 all being mass produced Evas (re:albino orcas with red lipstick) in NGE.
Gendou cooperates with SEELE in Rebuild vs Gendou betraying SEELE in NGE.
Kaworu is the 1st Angel in Rebuild vs Kaworu is the last Angel in NGE... excluding humanity.
Ritsuko is not sleeping with Gendou in Rebuild vs Ritsuko riding Gendou's baloney pony in NGE.
NERV HQ will blow itself up if anything with "Pattern Blue" enters Terminal Dogma in Rebuild vs the self destruct has to be manually activated in NGE.
The Magi computers are just computers in Rebuild vs the Magi computers being Ritsuko's mum... powered by Windows and twice as moody in NGE.
Sakura Suzuhara is a character with a face and personality in Rebuild vs Toji's sister being a nobody in NGE.
The EVA's pilots are interchangeable in Rebuild vs Evas and Pilots have to be matched in NGE.
Unit 01 is the only Eva with a human soul in Rebuild vs every Eva has a human soul (or dummy soul) in NGE.
The Dummy system is a machine that speaks backwards in Rebuild vs the Dummy system is a Rei clone... powered by Apple and twice as moody in NGE.
The Angels have numbers in Rebuild vs the Angels have names that no character ever acknowledges in the show in NGE.
Shinji and Asuka are startled by Penpen because they have never seen a penguin and didn't even know birds like him existed; since lesser life forms like animals were wiped out in 2nd Impact in Rebuild vs Shinji being surprised by a penguin living in Misato's flat in NGE
WILLE... vs... ?
Kaji is (I suspect) part of WILLE from the start in Rebuild vs Kaji is a spy for that chick with the dog in NGE.
SEELE are an immortal monolithic illuminati who have guided human civilisation since the dawn of history in Rebuild vs SEELE are a committee of government lackeys who later go into hiding and use projected monoliths as "sound only" representations of themselves in NGE.
Keele is not in Rebuild vs Keele being SEELE's head honcho in NGE.

And many more besides...

And please don't try and explain how any of these are connected (they're not and I don't care).

Just let it go... Stop seeing what isn't there and polluting every conversation with this asinine sequel theory which doesn't make any real sense.
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