During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Irohas » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:07 pm

Hi, new to the forum just binge watched Evangelion and I've read a lot of details on the forum. Thanks for your guys input but onto my question.

During the end of Evangelion when Shinji was having all of his thoughts as the Human Instrumentality was beginning were Rei, Asuka, and Misato just projection's in his own mind that he imagined ? More specifically when Asuka was yelling at him about how she knows all about his jerk-off fantasies about her was that actually her saying that with her mind / being or just what Shinji imagined. I know that when Shinji choked Asuka during the coffee-pot scene it was mostly his own inner thoughts and projection of her but I'm not sure if that was actually just in his mind or Asuka experiencing that argument and choking, I'm trying to understand how connected their minds were and at what points they were all sharing the same thoughts / memories. Like when Shinji saw Kaji and Misato having their 1 week session if he was the only one seeing it or if Rei and Asuka were as well. Ty again ^^
Last edited by Irohas on Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: During the EoE movie was Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projection's in Shinji's mind?

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Postby imprimatur13 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:12 pm

Well, it IS somewhat unclear. I personally like to think it was ALL in Shinji's mind, but general consensus holds otherwise. I think I'm wrong :). Certainly in EoTV in "Misato's Case" etc., that was her own. Here's the thing, though: Instrumentality, all minds become one. So, at that point, there really is no difference, because Shinji's and Misato's minds don't exist anymore. There is only one mind now. Kind of screwy, but that's how it is :).
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projection's in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Irohas » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:26 pm

Ya it's kinda convoluted :c

Like what about when Shinji was having a conversation with the 3 girls in the train ? Was that just his image of them and their personalities or was that actually their souls / beings speaking to him ? I realize that it doesn't matter since in the end they all became one being for a certain amount of time meaning they know everything about each other but I just wanted to know if the responses he got from the girls regarding the jerk-off fantasies and the questioning about if he actually tried to understand others was coming from them or something that he imagined.

I love detailed anime like this but it is a bit confusing heh I like questioning if these responses came from the characters or if it was just what Shinji imagined them saying because it gives me a better understanding if like Asuka's response to him doing that was her own and if the things they were saying in his mind were how they really felt. ^_^

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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:51 pm

Personally, I think that they were all real. I view the coffee scene as the culmination of Asuka and Shinji's pre-instrumentality relationship, in which they finally express their feelings for each other with actions rather than words. And Shinji, being the more reserved and shy one, has much more pent up anger, which is why he chokes Asuka - and why she's so shocked about it (we see a brief shot of Asuka's shocked eyes after Shinji lunges at her).

In the post-instrumentality world, Shinji, resigned to living in a world of pain, and not thinking straight due to his isolation, still has that anger towards Asuka, and so he continues choking her. But, through instrumentality, Asuka now understands Shinji - the misunderstanding between them, arguably the cause of all negative relationships is gone. She strokes his face in an attempt to comfort him, and he cries as he receives an act of kindness from Asuka. But she isn't going to just forgive everything and move on, especially not Shinji's violation of her. "How disgusting."

There's still a lot of issues to work out between them, but instrumentality gave them a glimpse into each other's souls. Think of all the negative relationships you've had - did you really understand the other person? Did they understand you? Instrumentality, I feel, forced Asuka and Shinji to understand each other. Without it, their relationship would have gotten worse. With it, it can get better.
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Irohas » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:10 pm

@Cybermat47 such a well thought out interpretation, the stroke to Shinji's cheek from Asuka followed by the "Kimochi Warui" showed great character progression and that they finally understood each other. Kind of like a despite our differences and how much we hurt each other we can find happy moments together.

I hope we get a glimpse into what happens after Asuka and Shinji are left to rebuild the world on their own >< like what other humans are reborn and how civilization could make a return. Would love to see their progression, praying we get something in 4.0.

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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:54 am

I'll trot out my usual response to this question -- "Yes, it was all in Shinji's mind, but it's just that everyone else happened to be using it at the time." Flipping back to TV episode 25, Gendou lays it out plainly as "All minds become one mind."

Hence all the mutual revelations about things that clearly would never have been told.
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Irohas » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:13 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:I'll trot out my usual response to this question -- "Yes, it was all in Shinji's mind, but it's just that everyone else happened to be using it at the time." Flipping back to TV episode 25, Gendou lays it out plainly as "All minds become one mind."

Hence all the mutual revelations about things that clearly would never have been told.


My main question was if Asuka, Rei, and Misato were actually responding to Shinji with their own thoughts / beings during the various scenes playing out in his head, like when Asuka was telling him she knows of his jerk-off fantasies or when Rei was telling him he never truly tried to understand others. As well as the first choking scene with the coffee pot, if it was just a scene playing out in Shinji's head or him and Asuka's thoughts clashing inside his head during the instrumentality. I realize that it doesn't matter in the end since they all became one momentarily and found out each other's thoughts and feelings but my reasoning for looking into this was to dive into the character's traits like verifying if Asuka's response to Shinji's violation of her / her reaction to him choking her was her own response / feelings or his imagination.


Thx in advance Tines ^_^

Edit : It's satisfying for me to know cause when Asuka says that if she can't have Shinji all to herself then she doesn't want anything from him if that's coming from her and not his inner thoughts it's good verification that she was actually jealous of Rei when her and Shinji were getting close. Good way to connect the dots and clear up if her feelings for him were genuine throughout questionable scenes. < Just one example of why I think up these types of questions ^^

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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Reichu » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:03 am

The other characters in that scene are real. Misato sharing the memory of her college sexathon is the giveaway. We the audience knew about this, because Ritsuko mentions it in episode 21, but Shinji had absolutely no way of knowing.
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Irohas » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:25 pm

Ahh I see ty for the replies guys I appreciate it ^^. Helped a lot, i'm more certain that was actually them talking to Shinji now. Time to watch rebuild and hope it's a lot better than all the negative posts I've read about it x.x.

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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby imprimatur13 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:40 pm

View Original PostIrohas wrote:Ahh I see ty for the replies guys I appreciate it ^^. Helped a lot, i'm more certain that was actually them talking to Shinji now. Time to watch rebuild and hope it's a lot better than all the negative posts I've read about it x.x.

Don't worry. They kept the Toji/Kensuke urinal scene. These guys know what they're doing. :cool:
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:46 am

The thing with EoE is that Instrumentality is just an excuse to go from a plot heavy show to an abstract representation of what the characters are feeling.
It could be interpreted many ways.
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Irohas » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:01 am

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:The thing with EoE is that Instrumentality is just an excuse to go from a plot heavy show to an abstract representation of what the characters are feeling.
It could be interpreted many ways.


Ya definitely, my original theory about them being projections in Shinji's mind or their actual selves speaking to him are both real possibilities still. Just wanted to ask to see if I missed any solid evidence that supported the idea of what I was hoping for. There are a lot of ongoing debates and discussions still going on about the ending of EoE having a lot of random signs that can possibly(or not) provide good evidence for many ongoing theories like how Misato's rusted cross showed a lot of time had passed before Shinji and Asuka appeared on the beach < I wonder if Shinji and Asuka came back at the same time if anyone knows feel free to post please. Anyways I was hoping me asking would bring in some hardcore fans that have noticed stuff like that that may have better convinced me of what I was looking for. But the answers you guys gave me were more than satisfactory enough ^_^ . Honestly I have soo many questions about the series but spend most of my time researching and googling it when I think about Evangelion, the characters are hard to not get emotionally attached too :c

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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:30 am

I did think it was the real Asuka and Shinji in the coffee room projection but I think the reason Misato and Rei don't show up here is because its a private projection between only them, though I do think Rei can see it as she's god but chooses to remain silent where as Misato can't. BecauseI believe if she could she would interact with it and stop the strangling because as bad a parent figure as she is I think that is one step to far even for her.

Personally I believe you can get a semi private protection like with Misato and Kaji's where one person can see you while others project there thoughts and a fully private one where certain people just can't see in because you don't want them to. As I don't think instrumentality is quite as open as the dream in Gendo's head and even inside people can close themselves off to others as they gain more control over the dream scenario over time.
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Irohas » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:48 pm

Yeah I can see that .. Being able to close each other off from seeing their thoughts as they gain more control wouldn't be completely out of the question. But I also think that it's equally possible for no one to be able to close off the others and that they were all forced to see each other's thoughts/projections.

Another concern I was having was if it was just Rei Shinji Misato and Asuka experiencing these thoughts and if everyone in the world got a glimpse into them as well < possibly towards the end of instrumentality when everyone's mind became one, or if it was just an exclusive event happening for the 4 of them. But I believe this doesn't matter as everyone momentarily became one before Shinji decided to split everyone back up, just wanted to know if the whole World was watching Shinji's conversation with Asuka Rei Misato.

Anno asking Yuko Miyamura what's the first thing she would say if she woke up to a guy that Masturbated over her comatose body helped me confirm that Asuka either found out from her mind connecting with Shinji's, or the theory about her being sedated and not actually in a coma was right and she knew what he was doing when he did it, which of these I have yet to come to a decision too so feel free to shed some light for me if anyone knows.

But ya sadly the implications of how the dream-like state worked during instrumentality will forever be riddled with questions and up to debate. It's enough for me to know that it wasn't just going on in Shinji's mind and that he was pretty much having a conversation with Asuka / Rei / Misato's souls. Praying that the last rebuild movie will give us clear answers as to what happened post Third Impact and Anno won't shaft us with even more unanswered questions ><

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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Sachi » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:15 pm

The ability to close people off is exactly what EoTV explores, specifically Ep 26. Shinji's isolated stage auditorium, his alternate universe, etc.

One popular interpretation, one that NemZ used to argue all the time, was that EoTV presents Instrumentality as a good thing, as a way for people to connect and complement each other, a techno-rapture. In the real world, people are fundamentally lonely and are unable to cross the barriers between them. Instrumentality is the solution, however Shinji is unable to join the others, trapped too deeply within his own shell. We receive discussion about creating new worlds, reshaping one's hearts, giving oneself parameters in which to operate, and finally an alternate reality of Shinji's choosing (which features individuals that exist within Shinji's mind, but not the individuals as they exist in their own mind). By the end, however, Shinji quits his retreat, rejoins the others in Instrumentality ("Congratulations!") and chooses to harmonize with other people (rather than his personal images of them).

For this conversation, I think it's also important to determine what qualifies as "just a projection" in Shinji's mind. EoTV goes to lengths to explain that the "you that exists in your mind" and the "you that exists in an others mind" are different yet equally valid. The example from EoE of Shinji witnessing Misato and Kaji's sexathon is clearly a version of Misato that exists beyond Shinji's mind, and therefore must come from the mind of another. However, another EoE scene of all the Eva women rejecting and "breaking up" with Shinji, is most likely not coming directly from them, but from the version of them that exists only within Shinji's mind. IOW, the rejection scene is a result of Shinji's personal anxiety regarding relationships.
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Irohas » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:14 pm

I loved the bit about Shinji visualizing them rejecting him because of his personal anxiety regarding rejection/relationships and continually shelling himself off because it coincides with his personality. In the end of the TV series him receiving applause from everyone as a sign of him finally unifying and discarding his own personal images of them makes perfect sense. I've read theories that the TV series could be what was going on in his mind and EoE was what was going on in the Real World during or after the events of ep 25 / 26. That seems a lot more plausible to me now.

I appreciate you taking the time to give me your detailed views on Evangelion guys, I know that there are endless possibilities and details that support certain points in the story but I'm honestly just trying to dissect the personalities of each character. For example, knowing if Asuka was the one who told Shinji if she can't have him all to herself she doesn't want anything from him < if that is coming directly from her it says a lot about her feelings and acceptance towards him, but on the other hand if it's just Shinji's thoughts and what he believes she would say regarding that it would mean that it isn't coming personally from her and she may feel entirely different about him regarding certain situations.

From everything I've read personally I've come to the conclusion that it may or may not have been them speaking to him, but the likely claim would be that it was all going on in Shinji's mind yet they all unified as one and saw each other's thoughts in the end anyway. If anyone has clear evidence that it was more likely their beings / souls speaking to each other during Shinji's internal conflict please feel free to post.

Thx again everyone ^_^

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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:51 am

View Original PostIrohas wrote:If anyone has clear evidence that it was more likely their beings / souls speaking to each other during Shinji's internal conflict please feel free to post.

Already did.

Reichu wrote:Misato sharing the memory of her college sexathon is the giveaway. We the audience knew about this, because Ritsuko mentions it in episode 21, but Shinji had absolutely no way of knowing.


Option A. Shinji's mind "projected" a version of Misato whose college sexploits were -- entirely by coincidence -- exactly the same as the real deal.
Option B. Misato was linked to Shinji's mind by Rei and showed him the memory.
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby kuribo-04 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:35 pm

I'l ladd that I see scenes during Instrumentaloty with differemt perspectives each time.
Depends on my current state of mind.
Sometimes it feels like we're seeing Asuka, and sometimes that it is just the image of her Shinji has in his mind.
And I think it's all valid.
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:04 pm

If Shinji and Asuka's minds are connected, then the Asuka in Asuka's mind and the Asuka in Shinji's mind become the same thing. No longer anything keeping them separate.
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Re: During the EoE movie were Asuka, Rei, and Misato just projections in Shinji's mind?

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Postby Irohas » Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:37 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Already did.



Option A. Shinji's mind "projected" a version of Misato whose college sexploits were -- entirely by coincidence -- exactly the same as the real deal.
Option B. Misato was linked to Shinji's mind by Rei and showed him the memory.


Ya great points, but based off the analysis Sachi made it's a definite possibility that they may have just been what Shinji's own personal image of them were inside his mind. We do know for sure that Shinji at the very least and possibly others had access to each other's past/memories. So it's safe to assume that Asuka/Misato may have been undergoing their own internal conflicts as Shinji was experiencing his. How connected they were and at what moments it was them actually speaking to him, i.e. the Hell train rejection scene or the coffee pot choking scene still seems debatable.

I do believe Rei as the one in control of instrumentality was witnessing and had a hand in everything Shinji was going through. So is it safe to assume that Misato and Asuka were going through their own personal conflicts as well while Shinji was going through his ? Maybe after their conflicts when they came to their own resolution as to why they're happy living on with others as individuals is when they come back to life and Asuka was the first to find her answer which is why she shows up next to Shinji first.

Now in the end Shinji and Asuka saw every single one of each other's thoughts and probably the internal conflicts each of them were going through leading them to a good understanding of each other. But sadly there doesn't seem to be any solid evidence that makes it 100% true that the Asuka Shinji was choking in the coffee pot scene or rejecting him on the hell train were entities he imagined in his head or their minds actually combining with his to speak to him.

Based off the information I've compiled (from your guy's great analysis and other ongoing theories,) it could be that Rei unified their minds during certain moments to give them a better understanding of each other. But it's also equally possible that it could have been Shinji's own personal images of them as they were experiencing it. I suppose it would be a never ending debate trying to pinpoint when and at what exact moments it could have been the girls speaking to Shinji inside his mind. But based off an outside party(Rei) being able to influence the events going on in his head and showing him specifics i'd say it's safe to assume that maybe Rei unified their minds during certain moments they were going through to give them a better understanding of each other, and some of the thoughts Shinji was having of them were his own and not actually them speaking to him < but some thoughts definitely could have been what they wanted him to know or say/respond to him being transmitted through Rei/Instrumentality.

Arghh that really frusturates me though, because as I said earlier it's nice to have a clear answer on if what one of them was saying to him was their own intentions/true feelings or if it was just what was projected in his mind as it gives us a good understanding as to how they felt about Shinji. Either way knowing of the possibilities is good enough, and the way things ended with them all seeing/understanding everything about each other is satisfactory.


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