If Shinji were to die in the final film.

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby Joseki » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:42 pm

If they were planning something they would have at least planned it well like in "The Truman Show" you cited earlier, the outcome is (one of many) proof that they didn't really plan anything and just did what they thought was the right thing to do.
Asuka bursting in the room acting like she was on the edge of a breakdown to me doesn't feel like something carefully planned to manipulate a confused teen.
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Postby xanderkh » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:42 pm

But, if Shinji WERE to die somehow in the Final movie, or at any point, I think it would fundamentally hurt a good number of the cast members (Misato and Asuka especially) to a huge degree.

They may regard Shinji as a threat, but I believe that parts of them, Misato especially, feel immense regret for putting Shinji that position in the first place. They just can't afford to feel or show vulnerability in such a hostile world now.

In fact, there's a really good fic called "Victory" by our very own GLOR that shows possibly how the majority of the cast would react if Misato had denotated the choker before Shinji escaped, and I think it does a damn good job showing their pain and regret following such a choice, no matter how "justified" it may have been.
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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:55 pm

Stillborn, you are one of the most confusing human beings I have ever encountered.

You reject a positive interpretation of Evangelion and paint Anno as some kind of cynical asshole who just enjoys watching his self-insert suffer (which would make him a masochist rather than a sadist -- something you don't ever seem to acknowledge). This makes one wonder what you could possibly like about Eva at all or why you keep coming here (I am being charitable and assuming you are not doing it to troll, at least not on purpose). You act as though you resent both Anno and the work itself (just going to refer to Eva collectively, since I can't remember you ever saying anything positive about either version), and are always armed and ready with something snide and sarcastic to say about both, while at the same time treating your comments with an acidic insincerity, like you are mockingly representing a viewpoint that you don't actually believe. The irony being, of course, that you post with sardonic negativity so often that it is basically inseparable from you, and I envy the perceptive powers of anyone who can determine what you "really" think about anything. In any event, the impression thus received is that the thing you truly resent is not what Anno or anyone else has brought to the table, but what YOU are bringing to it, by way of your internal conflict regarding how things are versus the way you maybe wish they should be (but are too jaded to accept). You're not really having conversations with other people on this forum so much as you're arguing with yourself. So you're not going to get any kind of resolution from the outside; you need to change the way you look at things first.

I'm quite aware that this kind of armchair psych reading is frowned upon, but your repetitive posts bursting with paradoxical negativity juxtaposed with that grotesque username and avatar are basically screaming for the attention. :p

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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:46 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:But, if Shinji WERE to die somehow in the Final movie, or at any point, I think it would fundamentally hurt a good number of the cast members (Misato and Asuka especially) to a huge degree.

They may regard Shinji as a threat, but I believe that parts of them, Misato especially, feel immense regret for putting Shinji that position in the first place. They just can't afford to feel or show vulnerability in such a hostile world now.

In fact, there's a really good fic called "Victory" by our very own GLOR that shows possibly how the majority of the cast would react if Misato had denotated the choker before Shinji escaped, and I think it does a damn good job showing their pain and regret following such a choice, no matter how "justified" it may have been.

How would it hurt Misato and Asuka if Shinji were to die at some point? And to what degree as you say it would?
And how is it that Misato would feel regret for putting Shinji in the position he's in now?
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Postby Sachi » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:22 am

^ Are you suggesting it wouldn't hurt Asuka and Misato if Shinji died? After all the positive experiences they had together? Complicated as theit relationships are now, they'd have to be sociopaths not to feel any empathy toward Shinji's death. The opposition between Shinji and everybody else isn't because there's a fundamental incompatibility between them; the complication in their relationship is because they got close enough to care, and also close enough to feel deeply hurt and betrayed. Hello, Hedgehog's Dillemma. The pain Misato and Asuka feel is raw and emotional. Therefore, we can expect their reaction to his death to be the same.

Also, we're explicitly told Misato uses Shinji for her personal vendetta against the Angels. Of course she holds a level of guilt in that regard.
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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:17 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:^ Are you suggesting it wouldn't hurt Asuka and Misato if Shinji died? After all the positive experiences they had together?

It's just hard to tell exactly how it would impact them, in a good or bad way, considering how negative they were towards him. It's apparent that they blamed him for the impacts he caused. And it's true they did spare his life given the opportunity to end it, but I don't think it outweighs the negative emotion they have towards him; the resentment is there, as well as their hatred. And because of that, I have a hard time believing that they may have any positive feelings for him, and the same could be said for NGE Asuka.

And it's unknown how things will end for Shinji and the others, but as I've said earlier, it probably won't end well.
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Postby Sachi » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:26 am

Do negative experiences cancel out positive ones, or do they build upon each other into something gross and complicated? Also, how heavily do these negatives weigh in this instance? Do we know for sure? Is it enough to erase entirely any and all empathy for someone? Is it possible to forgive, and to want to forgive someone despite a painful history?
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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:34 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:Do negative experiences cancel out positive ones, or do they build upon each other into something gross and complicated? Also, how heavily do these negatives weigh in this instance? Do we know for sure? Is it enough to erase entirely any and all empathy for someone? Is it possible to forgive, and to want to forgive someone despite a painful history?

I'm not so sure in the case of Misato and Asuka.
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Postby xanderkh » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:39 am

You know, it is possible to be ROYALLY pissed off at someone, but still grow to care for said person. Like how our parents would still love us even after we've screwed up how many times in our lives for being spoiled brats.

Emotions are complicated, and it actually takes quite a lot to hate someone on a fundamental level. Hatred, is like a drug. It FEELS powerful at first, but it just eats you up inside.

Yes, Asuka and Misato are pissed the **** at Shinji right now, and they have every right to be considering what he's done.....but that still doesn't mean they HATE him. He's just......obstinate, which really isn't something to hate him for.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:49 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:It's just hard to tell exactly how it would impact them, in a good or bad way, considering how negative they were towards him. It's apparent that they blamed him for the impacts he caused. And it's true they did spare his life given the opportunity to end it, but I don't think it outweighs the negative emotion they have towards him; the resentment is there, as well as their hatred. And because of that, I have a hard time believing that they may have any positive feelings for him

When I was a child I set the family home on fire. It was the result of a deliberate action, not an accident, but I was unaware of what the greater consequences would be. The fire brigade saved the house, but there was some damage. My parents did not hate me for this, nor even develop resentment. You see, people are generally a whole lot more understanding and forgiving than your characterisation suggests; life would become intolerable otherwise.
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Postby Ray » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:59 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I'm not so sure in the case of Misato and Asuka.


I make a whole thread talking about this if you're interested in hearing arguments and counter arguments about that.

thread/18194/Memories-Of-Shinji-Months-Of-Good-Vs-A-Decade-of-Bad/
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Postby Settie » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:51 pm

Shinji's journey is about finding his place and purpose in the world, is it piloting eva? gaining his fathers approval? seeking redemption for his mistakes? I just don't see it culminating in his death, it'd be counterproductive to his journey as that require he actually lives.

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Postby Ray » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:01 pm

View Original PostSettie wrote:Shinji's journey is about finding his place and purpose in the world, is it piloting eva? gaining his fathers approval? seeking redemption for his mistakes? I just don't see it culminating in his death, it'd be counterproductive to his journey as that require he actually lives.


Exactly.

I personally have doubts on the quality of said life ( which will probably entail the rest of his childhood/early adulthood being spent in a prison and/or insane asylum heavily medicated). But I do agree, him dying would be counterproductive to whatever message Anno is trying to convey.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
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Postby Reichu » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:00 pm

"Probably", followed by something that would never happen in an Anno script, huh? Ray definitely gonna Ray.

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Postby Ray » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:09 pm

I'm trying to meet you guys halfway here. :irked:

Anno is known for breaking the "show don't tell" rule of cinema. So I'm not expecting him to actually show that happening. He'd probably imply it through imagery or a discussion between characters.

Even if Shinji can turn things around, the road to recovery after 3.33 is going to take years at best.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:26 pm

Implying things that don't need to be spelled out, rather than showing them directly, is precisely what "show" is.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show,_don%27t_tell

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Postby Sachi » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:01 am

Should recovery even be an emphasis? EoE was an excellent analogy for expressing that even in the wakes of absolute destruction, one can still have hope and pursue happiness. It works well because what seems to be the most devastating tragedies, the literal end of the world, is not the actual end of the world for people if they can find the will to live on. I don't need to see how Shinji gets better. I just need the promise that it's possible.
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Postby Ray » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:52 am

I don't need to see how Shinji gets better. I just need the promise that it's possible.


Just once from Eva, I'd like things to not be left hanging. Just once, I'd like a promise delivered on. Just once, I'd like to KNOW Shinji is going to be alright and have a semi-decent future to look forward to by the time the end credits roll. It might be different for you, but i didn't get that from EOE.
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Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby imprimatur13 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:22 am

For what it's worth, I'm with Sachi.
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Postby pwhodges » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:56 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Just once from Eva, I'd like things to not be left hanging. Just once, I'd like a promise delivered on. Just once, I'd like to KNOW Shinji is going to be alright and have a semi-decent future to look forward to by the time the end credits roll. It might be different for you, but i didn't get that from EOE.

Hope and happiness have to grow within the mind - they're not part of the scenery. And given that there's always a future (until actual death), knowing that there is something to look forward to and work towards is a bigger driver for happiness than merely getting things on a plate.
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