If Shinji were to die in the final film.

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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C.T.1290
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If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:57 am

Things have apparently gone to Hell for Shinji, and for others as well. It seems as if the main characters were fated to never find happiness.

What if Shinji were to die in the last film? Wether it be having him executed by WILLE members as his punishment for setting off Third and Fourth Impact, or if he decides to make some form of self sacrifice, his own way to make things right for the people he cares about, though it may cost him his life in the process. If there was a way for him to reset the world, but there is some steep price to pay, I bet Shinji would be willing to pay any price to make things right, even his own life. Plus, Shinji doesn't seem to care what happens to him anymore, seeing where things are going now. And he'd be willing to accept his fate, whatever it may be.

And it's hard to tell what will happen to Shinji in next film, but whatever it is, it probably won't end well for him when he's back on the Wunder. It seems to me that in his view, many people lost their lives because of him, and it'd be only right for him to give his in return since there's nothing left for him now. The world has hated and rejected him, like it always have before.

So what if he dies in the end? What outcome would there be? How would it affect others? What consequences would there be?
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Postby Ray » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:36 am

I remember someone on some forum somewhere saying that "If Shinji dies in the final film, I'll burn all of my Eva merch".

A lot of people here seem to think that Shinji dying in the final film isn't going to happen because it would "undermine the message of Eva", whatever that even means anymore as applied to the Rebuilds. As for Shinji dying? While part of me wants to see the poor suffering Bastard put out of his Misery (ain't know way he's getting out of the Final movie with ANYTHING resembling a happy ending after the crap he pulled in 3.33), I know it's not going to happen. That would be too easy for Anno.

But, to humor your argument. IF Shinji were die in the Final film? I'd prefer it to be a heroic sacrifice or something in that vein. I'd like to see him take the bullet for Misato this time as opposed to the other way around. That way she can live with the guilt for once.
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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:47 am

View Original PostRay wrote:That would be too easy for Anno.

How would it be too easy?
I'd like to see him take the bullet for Misato this time as opposed to the other way around. That way she can live with the guilt for once.

Or have him dismembered by MP EVAs and that way, Asuka will live.
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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby Ray » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:56 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:How would it be too easy?


Because they can't have streamlined the story of the series to focus on HIS story (sometimes at the expense of developing other characters and fleshing out WTF happened) to just have him die after 3/4ths of his story is over.
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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby Joseki » Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:11 am

"Eva is a story of repetition.
It is a story where our protagonist faces the same situation many times over and determinedly picks himself back up again.
It is a story of the will to move forward, even if only a little. It is a story of the resolve to want to be together, even though it is frightening to have contact with others and endure ambiguous loneliness."


An eroic sacrifice, or any scenario in which he dies "so he could be redeemed", would be the the easy way out for Shinji and pointless being him dead after the redemption.
The world is hard for him at the moment so once he finds a reason that will magically make him be perceived as good he'll kill himself like a coward, gaining nothing and losing everything.
If Anno wants to portray Shinji as a total failure killing him like an idiot should be the way.
I also think that Asuka would really hate him after such a cowardly action, she's lending him a hand and he decides to play hero.

I think that a fitting ending for Shinji's tale would be the realization that there's still beauty and good in the world, that it is still worth fighting for it and that he has to give everything he has to stay in this world.

Recently I was wondering what's the line that marks the difference between "subverting expectations" and "bad writing".
After three movies everything seems to be pointing at Shinji finding a place where he can live at the end, so if he dies because is the only possible outcome from any of his possible choices would it be a plot twist or simply lazy writing to just create a cheap emotional reaction?
(My original thought was about "I'll help Asuka!"/"Save the princess"/"You didn't help me" but I think it could be applied here too).
Last edited by Joseki on Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby Rei IV » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:10 am

If Shinji were to die in the final film.

.......It would be ultimately pointless and totally defeat the purpose of the narrative/film series. Seriously though, lots of people must really LOATH/HATE Shinji if they think his death will resolve anything.

:shrug:
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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:00 pm

Joseki wrote:I also think that Asuka would really hate him after such a cowardly action, she's lending him a hand and he decides to play hero.

How is it that she would hate him more for choosing "the easy way out"? Wouldn't that relieved her problem towards him at least?
Rei IV wrote:.......It would be ultimately pointless and totally defeat the purpose of the narrative/film series. Seriously though, lots of people must really LOATH/HATE Shinji if they think his death will resolve anything.

:shrug:

I'd like to see how it would effect the other characters. That is, if they still care about him.
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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:45 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:How is it that she would hate him more for choosing "the easy way out"? Wouldn't that relieved her problem towards him at least?

No decent human prefers the suicide of an acquaintance to some other means of resolving their problems. I would like to think that Asuka is depicted as a decent human being, at least.
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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby Stillborn » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:27 pm

Sacrifice of a loose canon and a dumb one at that, is preferable to a problems he may cause for mankind. It's for the grater good after all. And if they can't pull the trigger, if he does it for them, all the better. No moral dilemma, and questionable threat removed. They can focus on saving the world from a man that wants to see his wife (the fiend! :angry!!: )
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Postby xanderkh » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:49 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Sacrifice of a loose canon and a dumb one at that, is preferable to a problems he may cause for mankind. It's for the grater good after all. And if they can't pull the trigger, if he does it for them, all the better. No moral dilemma, and questionable threat removed. They can focus on saving the world from a man that wants to see his wife (the fiend! :angry!!: )



Honestly Stillborn, what kind of message would that send to the real world?

"If you screw up enough, just kill yourself because you're too much of a burden and an idiot to matter?"

Do you realize how many teenagers would take that to heart if they believe that? Teenagers take screwing up to a whole deeper level, and YES, it's not the equivalent of "ending the world", but in a teenager's eyes, it means a blow to their world.

I doubt Anno would want to perforate THAT kind of message in his series.

No, if Shinji was meant die, he would've died LONG ago, considering there were plenty of opportunities for Wille, Misato, and Asuka to do so. And don't hide under that schlep of "moral dilemmas", cause they already past that the moment they put the choker on. No, Shinji's not going to die, not by a long shot.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Stillborn » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:04 pm

"If you screw up enough, just kill yourself because you're too much of a burden and an idiot to matter?"


Yeah. Pretty much that's it. If you aren't productive member of society, you can disappear. That seems to be very prevalent mindset in Japan (but not only) even if it's rarely voiced aloud. Also it's completly valid in utilitarian world that Q is set in. Even more so, when you cause problems by just being alive, not to mention actively screwing things up and putting multiple lives at danger.

But of course he is not going to die. Shinji is the Truman in "The Truman Show". The show needs him alive but contained because his death would go bad with the public and if he's alive at least some audiance will be entartained by his constant fails and humilation.

This is a "What if" thread so I go into "what if" and justify why it would make sense from in universe perspective, not why Anno will keep the universal joke alive.

Also I don't hide behind schlep of "moral dilemmas". I don't need to. Because everytime someone mentions the choker, someone else defends it that "Misato didn't killed him even when she could/should. So choker is completly ok." So many people else do the moral dilemma for me. I just use their own arguments in mine.
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Postby The Cruel » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:31 pm

That Shinji lives or dies doesn't matter. What matters is the context behind this and if it's justified. Everything can happen to him in FINAL, because how uncertain it is and it's up to him and others how it 'll be. Going on like before solves nothing, makes the suffering only worse, and only Gendo gains from this.

Because of what happened in 3.0, I don't care how FINAL 'll be. All I want is that Eva ends. Then I can finally be certairn of what it's all about.
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Postby xanderkh » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:40 pm

The show needs him alive but contained because his death would go bad with the public and if he's alive at least some audiance will be entartained by his constant fails and humilation.


Apparently, "human compassion" doesn't factor in to another reason why Shinji won't die, aside from just "pandering" to the audience. And considering how many times we've HAD this conversation Stillborn, when have we EVER been amused by Shinji's suffering? Heck, how many threads have we had where we discuss a BETTER ending for Shinji? Trust me, people don't enjoy his failures like you say they do.

And as a "Prevalent mindset" in Japan? Apparently, you haven't read other stories, like "My Hero Academia", where people acknowledge that others have value, even if they're not immediately useful. Shinji just needs to find that place where he can do good without being manipulated. :)

And again, you haven't answered why Shinji will die without being contradictory? You've said on multiple occasions that Anno doesn't care what his audience thinks as long as it conforms to his view. And Utiltarian? Seriously? Again, that still doesn't answer why Shinji is still alive with Asuka, since she had the chance to kill him at the end?
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:45 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Again, that still doesn't answer why Shinji is still alive with Asuka, since she had the chance to kill him at the end?

Because the characters in this story, Asuka included, have generally not lost their human decency. (Not sure about Gendō, though!)
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Postby Joseki » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:56 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Yeah. Pretty much that's it. If you aren't productive member of society, you can disappear. That seems to be very prevalent mindset in Japan (but not only) even if it's rarely voiced aloud. Also it's completly valid in utilitarian world that Q is set in. Even more so, when you cause problems by just being alive, not to mention actively screwing things up and putting multiple lives at danger.


This baffles me, it's Hideaki Anno who's creating the story, have you ever seen NGE, EoE or even Shin Godzilla? Anno's stance on the matter is so clear that I'm incredibly puzzled by this post. The "outcasters" always end up being the example to follow.
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Postby Stillborn » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:00 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Apparently, "human compassion" doesn't factor in to another reason why Shinji won't die, aside from just "pandering" to the audience.


"Human compassion" in Eva is just a tool to make someone do or don't do something. You can recognize rare examples of genuine compassion by that, they are soon punished by Anno pulling diabolus ex machina for oh so beloved gut punches. :tongue:

^

Only if those outcasters bring something valuable to the table. Shinji does not. Shinji holds value of radioactive waste that just happens to be sentinent and that complicates disposal a bit, since we can't have Wille portrayed as anything other than selfless heroes, burdened by horrible shit that is Shinji, right? :tongue:
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Postby Joseki » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:12 pm

If Shinji is a "horrible shit" why does Wille goes in all sorts of troubles to rescue him instead of simply flicking a switch? If they really wanted to eliminate him, or even if they simply didn't care either way about him, he would probably be dead now. There's some clear fallacy here.

By the way I doubt that Wille are selfless heros, Eva is not about single dimension characters. Misato, Asuka, Shinji Rei... all have their faults and make a lot of mistakes, it's pretty well established in the span of three movies.
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Postby xanderkh » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:15 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:"Human compassion" in Eva is just a tool to make someone do or don't do something. You can recognize rare examples of genuine compassion by that, they are soon punished by Anno pulling diabolus ex machina for oh so beloved gut punches. :tongue:


Oh, like Sakura, Touji's sister, was to Shinji? Yes, she was probably peeved at him for what he had done, but that doesn't stop her from being a decent human being.

Apparently, you seem to view kindness and empathy and things that can be exploited, which is obviously not the case in Evangelion. Kindness is not a weakness, nor is it naivety. I will forever argue against such beliefs, and Shinji's case is no exception.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Stillborn » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:26 pm

In Eva it is. It's pretty much a sin in Eva that causes shit to happen.

Sakura being nice to Shinji? Give him someone to trust so he won't pilot Eva. Calculated move. Naturaly that failed cause Rei was closer to him than people who pointed guns at him and bomb collared him, and then tossed some random girl to his cell who claimed to be his shool pal's sister. But hey. All in good faith. :tongue:
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Re: If Shinji were to die in the final film.

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:39 pm

It must be tiring trying to find ways to justify all these unsupported claims about what happens in this series.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Kaworu starts to prepare Shinji for dual-piloting (details); Past avatars.
Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)


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