Why human souls in Evas can produce big AT Fields

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Lyrical
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Why human souls in Evas can produce big AT Fields

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Postby Lyrical » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:36 pm

This is something I've seen brought up a lot in debates in other threads (which I'm not posting in because tbh idk where I'd start, and also because some are old af) - mostly in discussions about "SoL souls are special compared to Lilin souls" vs "All souls are human and therefore the same." Generally speaking, the main observable difference is that Angel souls and SoL souls produce massive AT Fields whereas Lilin make ones that are only just strong enough to maintain their forms.

However, "all souls are equal" proponents tend to cite the Evas as evidence of their point: if Evas just have ordinary Lilin souls in them, and those souls can produce Angel-tier AT Fields, then there's nothing special about any particular kind of soul. This usually seems to be a component of arguments claiming that Particle-Wave Matter has a special AT-enhancing properties compared to LCL (though, personally, I'm given to believe that neither substance is necessarily better than the other, just different - and actually I kind of like a theory I saw proposed recently that PWM is actually just a special form of LCL)

I would argue, however, that [b]most people have ignored the primary difference between Evas and everyone else: namely, that most living things with AT Fields don't have the benefit of being hooked up to an enormous external power source via Umbilical Cable. The electrical power is probably being converted to energy to boost the AT Field's abilities.
[/b]

You might argue that the soul does all the work of producing the Field and the electrical power is just to keep the body running. But given that the limitless energy of the S2 Engine seems to be what powers Angels and friends enough to let them pull their shenanigans, and that those shenanigans are also typically related to the AT Field, it seems like we can infer that a physical power source (the Umbilical Cable) can be used to route power a metaphysical machine (the soul). This would handily explain the discrepancy in power between Lilin in Evas and Lilin as Lilin, to me, without ignoring the weird shit we see SoL souls pull outside their bodies, while also allowing us not to get mired in whether or not Kaworu and Rei's bodies are LCL or PWM.

You could bring up the very obvious counterpoint: what about when the Evas go berserk without power, as we see Unit 01 do on a regular basis? My guess is that the Lilin soul *can* deploy a high-energy AT for a limited period without external power - but it is *limited*. Ordinary people don't do it because they don't know they can - or if they do know that much, then they wouldn't know how to begin to go about it, whereas anything that's been living in Adam's body-doubles and that's been directed by the pilot and NERV to regularly deploy AT Fields in combat would have learned to pull all the stops.

As for why, then, an Eva still needs all those restraints if it can only deploy powerful ATFs for a limited time without the Cable/battery? Simple: against anything that isn't an Angel, it doesn't NEED a strong ATF. The Evas' skin, muscle and bone are strong enough on their own that a rebellious soul would really only need a strong enough ATF to keep the body together - if even that, since in the Eva's case, the body would have existed long before the soul, and therefore probably isn't reliant on it to hold its shape.

Does this guess make any amount of sense? If I'm retreading old ground and just missed it, or if there are holes in this, please don't hesitate to let me know.

imprimatur13
Sachiel
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Re: Why human souls in Evas can produce big AT Fields

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Postby imprimatur13 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:02 am

This is interesting, and I've done some thinking myself on the whole 'soul' thing. As I understand it, the S2 engine is what makes these ATFs possible. To quote the opening paragraph of the S2 wiki article:
An S² (Super Solenoid) Engine (S²機関, S² Kikan) is an organ located within the core of an Angel[1] which grants it a limitless source of energy. Evangelions are not born with S² Engines[2], and are thus (normally) dependent upon energy supplied via power cable or internal battery.

I think this confirms your point, that Eva's rely on the electrical power, and somehow convert it to psycho-energy.

I personally put my beliefs on the "all souls are same" side. I imagine that, if a human being were somehow to be able to process that power, they could do the same. As Reichu-senpai said (over on reddit):
Assuming that the FAR were fragile mortals much like us, I would guess that the biggest reason for not handing out the Fruit of Life like candy would be this: you need to already have the body of a god to handle the thing. We see that Lilin's bodies are very weak, and as a result their A.T. Fields are not much more than metaphors that bend at the first sign of trouble, whereas those who possess "god-flesh" (= resonate on a green or blue wavelength) can do pretty much anything. The S2 engine is an organic energy reactor that has a hypothetically limitless output, and the kinds of bodies it outputs into are the sorts that can actually be powered by "raw", non-metabolic energy (cf. plugging the Evas into the grid). I also suspect that a psychokinesis-grade ATF plays a central role in the organ's proper functioning, namely in terms of providing containment (something the ATF would be very good at) -- I mean, just look at how often the Angels blow up, seemingly without Sachiel-style intent, when they die.

So I would guess that if you tried to implant an S2 organ into someone lacking the proper body, it would not deliver the desired results. Maybe it wouldn't work at all. Maybe you'd burst into fire, or explode, or implode, or melt, or become seven notes of music. I dunno.


So, souls are the same, but Eva or Angel-type bodies are necessary to contain that much energy without being destroyed.

Lyrical
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Re: Why human souls in Evas can produce big AT Fields

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Postby Lyrical » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:23 am

Interesting! Mmm, just curious then, what would be your explanation for what seem to be differences between Kaworu/Adam/Rei/Lilith souls and everyone else's? (Mostly how their ATs seem to be so much more powerful than those of other Angels even while in Lilin bodies, and why those two souls specifically are needed for Gendo's "forbidden union" 3I?) I'm not vehemently against the "all souls are equal" camps, and I'm sure there are lots of ways to prove that Adam and Lilith aren't so different from the others - I mostly just question whether or not the Evas are even relevant to that discussion - but I feel like I haven't personally gotten to hear a lot of rebuttals to the "SoLs are special" side that didn't end up leaning on the Eva argument, if that makes sense.

imprimatur13
Sachiel
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Re: Why human souls in Evas can produce big AT Fields

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Postby imprimatur13 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:01 am

Let me try to address this as best I can. (You see, if you click the reddit link above, and go to the main comment thread, you'll see that Reichu's comment was part of a longer conversation between her and myself on essentially this subject (and Gurren Lagann :)). So, most of what I know, comes from her. :) )

Adam and Lilith both (I believe) possess S2 engines, so this makes sense. How does Kaworu levitate? Umm... According to the wiki, his body is made up of a mixture of a human donor's genes, and Adam's flesh. Whatever that means. Perhaps he possesses a "semi-S2 engine"? It also wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest that Rei also has some of Lilith's DNA, as if she were a "true" clone of Yui, she'd look exactly like her, which she doesn't. [Edit: And not only might they have "semi-S2"s, but also their bodies would be better able to process the energy.]

On 3I: Apparently, (and Impact-mechanics are pretty up there as far as obscurity and confusion go,) as I understand it (not very well), an Impact requires contact between 2 SoLs. In this case, Adam and Lilith. Now, here's where it gets fun. Gendo's 3I involved him, with the Adam embryo (and theoretically having incorporated Adam's soul into himself as well), fusing with Lilith, after she reincorporated Rei. Once Lilith reincorporated the part of her soul that was in Rei, Gendo (as Adam) would be able to have Rei (as Lilith) go along with him, and allow him to direct Instrumentality as he pleases, and let him be with Yui-sama.
However, Rei took the Adam embryo into herself, and thus, when she merged with Lilith, she immediately began 3I. She then handed control over to Shinji, who did as he liked.

So, I've heard theories about the necessity of a Lilin's involvement/lack thereof (to give permission, or something), and I don't really know about all that.
I also don't know if (and to what extent) an Adamic or Lilin offspring can substitute for the SoL. For instance, 2I was apparently caused by a Lilin (perhaps Dr. Katsuragi?) fusing with Adam. This confuses me :). (Perhaps only one substitute is possible, but one of the 2 has to be the original? I ask, because when Shinji touched Rei, and Kaworu, nothing happened. (Well, perhaps a different kind of Impact, but I digress... :) ))
Lastly, as for Kaworu's presence, I like to think that after Shinji killed him, his soul went back into Adam (well, the embryo). Which is why he showed up.

P.S. I think I'll PM Reichu, see what she says about all this.
Last edited by imprimatur13 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lyrical
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Re: Why human souls in Evas can produce big AT Fields

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Postby Lyrical » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:24 am

On 3I: Apparently, (and Impact-mechanics are pretty up there as far as obscurity and confusion go,) as I understand it (not very well), an Impact requires contact between 2 SoLs. In this case, Adam and Lilith. Now, here's where it gets fun. Gendo's 3I involved him, with the Adam embryo (and theoretically having incorporated Adam's soul into himself as well), fusing with Lilith, after she reincorporated Rei. Once Lilith reincorporated the part of her soul that was in Rei, Gendo (as Adam) would be able to have Rei (as Lilith) go along with him, and allow him to direct Instrumentality as he pleases, and let him be with Yui-sama.


Right, that makes sense! I guess my question is, if it's definite that Adam and Lilith's souls are especially important to 3I, then doesn't that just confirm that their souls are of a unique kind? Like, say you, I don't know, converted the Seeds' soulless physical bodies into Evangelions (sort of like what happened to one or more ADAMS in Rebuild) and shoved Lilin souls inside, and then brought those Evas together to interact. Does that still cause an Impact? I'm inclined to think no, but if all souls are equal then wouldn't that have to be the case?

(NOTE: I'm not suggesting that converting SoLs into Evas is necessarily actually possible in NGE-verse. It's more a general hypothetical of "What if you kept the bodies but swapped the souls?")

imprimatur13
Sachiel
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Re: Why human souls in Evas can produce big AT Fields

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Postby imprimatur13 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:22 am

I don't think SoL's souls are what trigger an Impact. I think it is just the bodies. (Such that, if you were to remove Adam's and Lilith's souls from their bodies, and replace them with Lilin souls, it would still work.) But, I haven't seen the Rebuilds, so I couldn't comment on those.


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