Was Adam trying to create human life?

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Was Adam trying to create human life?

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Postby AdamMalkobitch » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:38 pm

As the story goes on, the Angels seem more and more Human like. Adam was nothing but destruction and creation rolled into one, mothering the other Angels. It seems like it's trying to create a human, like Lilith so easily did, and getting closer and closer each time. This jealousy brings up another theory I have. Lilin and Angels seem very similar to Cain and Able, the sons of Adam and Eve, and the first naturally born humans on earth. Over time, one brother grew jealous of the other's special treatment from God, and murdered him. Back to my original point, it's as if Adam is trying over and over to create human life. Sachiel is pure destruction, but more focused than Adam in it's goals. Shamshel goes after Unit 01 first, likely a strategic move to make it's contact with Lilith easier. Ramiel is pure power and timing, and Gagiel decides to go for her mother instead of Lilith. Leleil is built to deceive. Zeruel is a combination of all the best parts of the preceding Angels, raw power, speed, and strategy, dispatching any Eva it comes across immediately. Arael is the first to try to understand humanity, but does so very clumsily, accidentally destroying it's research subject. Armisael is the last alien-looking Angel, and other than Tabris, the only to already feel emotions. It doesn't understand itself, however, and seeking help, violently lashes out. It gets an answer from one Lilin, but wants more information, and tries to fuse with Unit 01 when it appears. Armisael is the closest Adam got to creating his own perfect offspring before he was reduced to an embryo after Second Impact. Tabris is Adam's soul, and so human that it can manifest and take control of a human body with no problems, and still use it's powers.
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Re: Was Adam trying to create human life?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:19 am

Canonically speaking, Adam's Children are human. Misato states this in EoE, though some translations choose to obfuscate the reveal. She says the Angels were another possibility: a human race who discarded their human form. What this means is explained in this stickied topic.

The reason Kaworu looks like a Lilin is because he actually IS part-Lilin, the result of an experiment wherein a "donor" made contact with Adam and his genes merged into Adam (with one of her ova, specifically?) to create a hybrid being.
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Re: Was Adam trying to create human life?

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Postby AdamMalkobitch » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:16 pm

So does that mean that in a similar way to Rei, Kaworu's body is a clone of that of the man who took place in the contact experiment?
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Re: Was Adam trying to create human life?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:50 pm

We don't know enough to say if Kaworu is a "clone" per se -- but, yes, presumably he looks like a younger, palette -swapped version of the donor.
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Re: Was Adam trying to create human life?

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:14 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkobitch wrote:So does that mean that in a similar way to Rei, Kaworu's body is a clone of that of the man who took place in the contact experiment?

When Yui was involved in a contact experiment, she was making contact with Unit-01, not Lilith. They also state that Rei's clones are made from all that could be salvaged from Yui Ikari (which may have been hairs or whatever from the dressing room she was in, for all we know). Kaworu's cloned body DNA donor isn't necessarily going to be the same as the donor whose DNA "dove" into Adam. Second Impact was manufactured on purpose to allow for a human controlled Third Impact to occur after all the angels that the Dead Sea Scrolls predicted would awaken were eliminated (neutralizing any chance that an angel initiated impact could interfere with SEELE or Gendo's final goals for humanity). The contact experiment was more or less a cover for causing an impact, giving SEELE plausible deniability for setting it off.

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Re: Was Adam trying to create human life?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:38 pm

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:Kaworu's cloned body DNA donor isn't necessarily going to be the same as the donor whose DNA "dove" into Adam.

Why would you think several hints were deliberately added to the show about Adam being experimented on with Lilin genes, if NOT to explain Kaworu's origins? The economy of information in fiction is our friend, not the enemy. More on this here, specifically addressed in this post.
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Re: Was Adam trying to create human life?

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:46 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Why would you think several hints were deliberately added to the show about Adam being experimented on with Lilin genes, if NOT to explain Kaworu's origins? The economy of information in fiction is our friend, not the enemy. More on this here, specifically addressed in this post.

All I did was point out that the donor for the DNA used to initiate 2nd impact isn't necessarily the same as the clone's DNA donor. I'm not really stating either way that it was or wasn't the same donor, just that if you're going to use the contact experiments involving Yui and Unit-01 as your basis for a hypothesis then logically it doesn't necessarily follow that the donor is the same.

I mean yeah, Kaworu was born the same day as the Second Impact, but why does that necessarily mean that he was born as a direct result of the contact experiment between Lilin DNA and Adam? Again, don't take my questioning here to mean I'm actually pushing any idea in particular here, I'm just genuinely curious why you're almost dogmatically shooing the idea away.

Honestly, I read the posts you shared and they're hardly conclusive at all. What the show "hints" at or whether or not it actually hints at anything is arguably entirely subjective. I won't deny that it's a natural conclusion to come to, but my reason for replying to you in particular right now has everything to do with how quickly you dismissed even the possibility of what I said and even went as far to almost criticize me (even borderline insult me depending on who you ask--lines like "The economy of information in fiction is our friend, not the enemy" are more than a bit unnecessary for discussing a TV series we both love in our spare time, don't you think?) for noting a fact and keeping an open mind despite in all actuality agreeing with you on the subject.

I'm not trying to be rude but this isn't really the first time I've seen you do this, even including toward some of my own few posts around here. I just don't understand what good it's doing you to be so locked in and stuck in your conclusions about the show. Honestly I imagine it would kill all the fun out of exploring all that the show has to offer. I can get why you're so adamant sometimes, but isn't it just fun to speculate from time to time? And isn't it important to keep the facts separated from conclusions you've come to from unreliable sources of information, like something as vague as hints?

I'm just of a similar mind to Kaji, all I really care about is getting closer to the truth. Sometimes that means entertaining seemingly dumb ideas and revisiting some older topics that you thought you had all figured out just to see if you've been fooling yourself this whole time. In this case though, I find nothing dumb about the fact that, unless you have some sort of logical inconsistency to point out with what I've laid out, what I've said here about the donor not necessarily being the same as the one that caused Second Impact is factual based off the available explicit, conclusive information. Unless you have something solid to argue against that with (which I wouldn't be all that surprised if you could come up with something, I made the original post in a hurry and it might just well be the case there is some conclusive evidence that the donors are definitely the same), it's the only legitimate solid ground there is on the subject, the rest is speculation (even if it's totally reasonable speculation that is likely the case).
Last edited by StrokeMeGoat on Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Was Adam trying to create human life?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:03 pm

I feel like you're taking my enthusiasm for parsimony a bit too personally.
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Re: Was Adam trying to create human life?

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:13 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I feel like you're taking my enthusiasm for parsimony a bit too personally.

The bit about taking it personally is probably true, but given parsimony is defined as "1. a principle according to which an explanation of a thing or event is made with the fewest possible assumptions. Compare Occam's razor. ", you'd think you would agree with what I've said regarding the donor(s). I'm not making any claims, just stating what's known. In terms of who has made fewer assumptions, I think none is fewer than one.

Again, I actually believe the donor is the same myself, but I find it absolutely baffling why you would see the need to even respond to my first post given I never made any assertions about the donor(s). The topic moved toward the donor for the clone, and so in my effort to explain things to the OP who seems to really only be very familiar with the Rebuilds, I found it prudent to keep the information I shared factual--I saw no reason to make any conclusions for him that he was likely going to make anyway himself.

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Re: Was Adam trying to create human life?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:25 pm

It's possible I misread what you intended -- always possible.

I interpreted what you wrote as saying that, yes, Adam was experimented on using the genes of a human donor, but this event doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the one by which Kaworu -- an offspring of Adam in the shape of a Lilin -- was created. Parsimony would tell us that the most reasonable conclusion, especially in a work of fiction which unlike nature actually IS designed, is that the experiment and Kaworu absolutely are related. If not, you need to explain the non-Kaworu importance of the genetic experimentation as it pertains to 2I, and you need to invent a new event from whole cloth to explain where Kaworu came from -- both paths of greater resistance.

Hopefully my response makes more sense now.
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Re: Was Adam trying to create human life?

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:34 am

Thanks, I appreciate you clarifying things. I think it's important to mention that when I say that the donors aren't necessarily the same, that doesn't mean that the contact experiment and Kaworu being Adam's soul placed in a clone are unrelated or that one isn't important to success of the other. That doesn't necessarily exclude the possibility that they somehow are unrelated or unimportant to one another, but for the sake of argument we're going to make the (safe) assumption that they're related in a significant way.

For instance, I think the fact that Adam regressed to an embryonic state after "exploding" could be extremely relevant and maybe even paramount to achieving SEELE's goal of producing an angel in a Lilin body. It may even be possible that they were able to stimulate one Adam embryo sample into developing but keep it from rejecting a human form. Now, whether that would require genetic manipulation with Lilin DNA or not is definitely up in the air (especially considering they're 99.89% identical anyway). Aside from all that, the contact experiment with Adam also serves as a valuable source of data on impact mechanics, the time it might take for things to happen (in terms of like anti-AT Fields being produced, if/when the chamber of guf opens, how large of an area the AATF encompasses and its rate of expansion, what might've happened with the Lilin DNA if data on that could be retrieved, data on the S2 engine and what exactly happens to it as a result of fusion with Lilin DNA, etc.), and so on.

I think to mention that the donors might be unrelated is actually a discussion capable of bearing fruit and therefore worthy of a bit of investigation. On the other hand, mentioning that the contact experiment and the achievement of producing a Lilin-bodied angel may not be important or significant to one another in any real significant capacity is hardly worth more than a single statement because there really isn't anything I can think of that a discussion about that might reveal.


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