Was Lilin Evolution Artificially Guided?

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Was Lilin Evolution Artificially Guided?

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Postby imprimatur13 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:17 pm

Hi! Just to introduce myself, I watched the series and EoE in April, and, since then, have been turning the show in my head over and over again. So, I was hoping I could share some of my thoughts with you folks, and see how my senpai-tachi feel about them. I post most of these on reddit, but I thought it might be worth doing it here, too. Far as I'm concerned, I just want to get feedback. Without intelligent feedback, I have no idea whether my ideas actually have merit or not... Here goes nothing!

According to the F.A.R. wiki article, the FAR were humanoid. Which, explains why Adam and Lilith are humanoid as well. Next,

It is implied that Lilith's LCL went into the world oceans, providing the primordial ooze out of which life evolved on Earth. I think we can assume that in the progression of evolution in NGE, primates and other humanoid species did not appear for a very long time. Finally, homo sapiens emerged, and so sentience was achieved.

Here's my question: What is the likelihood that humanoid creatures, which just happen to resemble the FAR, would evolve by chance? Is it possible that, somehow, the evolution of homo sapiens was planned from the beginning? Let's put it this way: Perhaps the FAR wanted to be reborn in bodies similar to their own, with sentience, and somehow directed human evolution towards that end (at least, in those Seeds of Life that had the Fruit of Knowledge).
Does that make sense?

P.S. The other Angels, that is Adam's Children, also began life as humanoid entities. I imagine that ties in somehow.

By the way, here's the link to the reddit post. https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/comments/6oc6h1/was_lilin_evolution_engineered/
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Re: Was Lilin Evolution Artificially Guided?

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Postby CommanderFish » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:37 pm

imprimatur13 wrote:Finally, homo sapiens emerged, and so sentience was achieved.

I think the proper word here is "sapience"; and even then that may not be exactly right.

imprimatur13 wrote:Perhaps the FAR wanted to be reborn in bodies similar to their own, with sentience, and somehow directed human evolution towards that end (at least, in those Seeds of Life that had the Fruit of Knowledge).

When you say the "FAR wanted to be reborn", are you talking about the souls within the Chamber of Guf?

imprimatur13 wrote:P.S. The other Angels, that is Adam's Children, also began life as humanoid entities. I imagine that ties in somehow.

Where did you get this information? I haven't heard of this before.
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Re: Was Lilin Evolution Artificially Guided?

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Postby imprimatur13 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:10 pm

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:I think the proper word here is "sapience"; and even then that may not be exactly right.

Ah, it probably would be a better word. Correct me if I'm wrong though, is there any evidence of any pre-homo sapient creatures? (I suppose neanderthals might count, but...)

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:When you say the "FAR wanted to be reborn", are you talking about the souls within the Chamber of Guf?

Yes.

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:Where did you get this information? I haven't heard of this before.

https://wiki.evageeks.org/Angels#Nature
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Re: Was Lilin Evolution Artificially Guided?

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:35 pm

I find it hilarious that Eva-verse humans work the same way as orks from 40k.

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Re: Was Lilin Evolution Artificially Guided?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:51 pm

I wasn't aware the Lilin were an engineered form of humanoid fungus.
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Re: Was Lilin Evolution Artificially Guided?

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Postby CommanderFish » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:24 am


Oh yeah, "humans who cast aside their human form". I straight up forgot about that line. My bad.
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Re: Was Lilin Evolution Artificially Guided?

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Postby Zoop » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:59 am

Angels are just very similar (dna and all) to human(oids) but they embraced the fruit of life, not wisdom, thus shedding their "human side" as it were.

This doesn't mean they were born like human(oid) entities and then changed forms as we see in the series.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:12 am

View Original PostZoop wrote:This doesn't mean they were born like human(oid) entities and then changed forms as we see in the series.

Not completely sure what you're trying to say here, since you sound like you're contracting yourself. We see in the series that they are born human and then change form (displayed by Sandalphon), so that's exactly what "humans who rejected human form" means.
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Postby Zoop » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:57 am

I never thought Sandalphon was an actual human (just because he looks like a human embryo, same with adam in his devolved form doesnt mean its actually human), if he was, he could not have survived those conditions. Which is kinda my point.
Its not like they get born from a human as a baby and then turn into an angel (right?).

The only exception would be Tabris, and he's only "human" because he was made so.

Point im trying to make that i think it's not supposed to be so literal. Angels arent humans that just turned into an angel. That would also mean any angel would have the power to be born as a normal human (even tho they are adams children) without any angelic powers and any human could turn into an angel just by "rejecting their human form" and i dont buy that.

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Re: Was Lilin Evolution Artificially Guided?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:53 am

You're mistaking "Lilin" for "human", when the latter means something much more broad in this particular context. Don't forget that Adam, Lilith, and the Evas are also human. Not Lilin, but human. The Angels are the same. Sandalphon's fetal state (which is much more specifically humanoid than Adam's embryo -- look at the arms and legs, which are fully formed) reflects the Angels' true nature, also evident in their genetic code. If they did not "reject" this form for their individualized ones, they would likely develop into beings similar to Adam or the Evas.

You should read this translation if you have been skipping over that thread so far, since it provides some apparently needed context to Misato's episode 25' exposition.
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Postby Zoop » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:39 am

No i'm not, i know the difference between lillin and angels. But when they are both called humans, i dont think they mean their actual form (arms, legs, all that). Less literal. I'm not convinced that all angels start out as a humanoid and then change however they see fit. I always thought it as a more spritual thing. That our souls are very similar and thus compatible. To me thats what defines a human (in nge), not appearance. Or would Sachiel have cast away a little less of his human form, since he still has arms and legs? I dont think its about that at all. Thats why i got trouble with "angels are humans who cast away their human form", i dont think thats to be taken literal at all (especially since some angels still have a bit of a human form) but more a reference to the fruit of life.

(oh and i've read that thread before, i'm not a big fan of the games, even though its concidered canon i prefer sticking to the stuff in the series, eva lost a lot of its mystique for me when the "gods" where just a bunch of aliens).

Please tell me if i'm not making any sense :)

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Re: Was Lilin Evolution Artificially Guided?

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:56 am

Perhaps what the angels cast away is not human form, but humanity, which could be seen as an expression of the fruit of knowledge.
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Postby Zoop » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:05 am

Exactly!

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:30 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Perhaps what the angels cast away is not human form, but humanity, which could be seen as an expression of the fruit of knowledge.

他の使徒達は別の可能性だったの。ヒトの形を捨てた人類の。
Hoka no shitotachi wa betsu no kanousei datta no. = The other Angels [hoka no shitotachi] were [datta] another possibility [betsu no kanousei].
Hito no katachi o suteta jinrui no. = A human race [jinrui] that abandoned [suteta] human form [hito no katachi o].

形 (katachi) refers to shape or appearance in a physical sense. For instance, 形から入る (katachi kara hairu) means "start with the looks; start by focusing on the superficial".
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Postby Zoop » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:06 am

I still think its not meant to be literal, because, well, think about it. Its already a mystery how angels exactly appear (they are just there), but now ive got to believe they first spawned as a human(oid) and then change intro a weird abstract form (like Leliel or Ramiel)? They all first spawn like Sandalphon? I dont find that very believable. In my opinion Sandalphon was an exception.

If its to be taken a little bit literal at all, then i'd say it should be taken in the context of evolution. Like the very first (adam) is human(oid), its children, however, abandoned that form and thus are born in a shape of their own chosing. I really find it weird that all angels would start out as a human.

The angels experiment with their forms, trying different approaches with each angel. Sandalphon was just trying something new, like forming itself after it spawned (who knows what kind of benefit it has, maybe its a shapeshifter or some sort) and its embroyic form happened to look human (i think this would be more an art-choice, because how else do you depict an infant angel?).

Aside from this passage (which is in my opinion not to be taken literally) there's no reason to believe that each angel develops like sandalphon did.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:54 am

From what I can see, you're taking every bit of information in the show about what the Angels actually are and discarding them because they don't fit your preconceptions. The whole "I don't believe what's right in front me!" routine is, amusingly enough, something that the show itself repeatedly calls out characters for -- as if it's anticipating this behavior in fans such as yourself.

Its already a mystery how angels exactly appear (they are just there)

Adam laid eggs in White Moon. Adam gave souls to eggs at Second Impact. Adam blew up and scattered eggs across Earth and into space. Eggs hatch and Angels proceed toward Japan.

I really find it weird that all angels would start out as a human.

Their genome is 99.89% the same as Lilin's, so what in the world is weird about it?
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Postby Zoop » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:01 am

If all angels start out as embryoic like sandalphon, why didnt they put more effort in locating the angels before reaching maturity? Sandalphon is literally the only one ever shown like that. Seeing how dangerous and important the angels are "oh yes, we know there a bunch of naked dudes / eggs buried somewhere / floating in space, lets just wait over here until they mature and fck everything up", is that how it is supposed to be? Please ...

And again, i look at this from whats shown in the series, nge2 can suck it.

-edited-
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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:23 am

In a work of fiction, you don't HAVE to tell the audience an important piece of information over and over again. Usually, it suffices to just reveal something once and let the audience's powers of extrapolation do the rest. NGE is the kind of work where if you miss a SINGLE reveal, you will have no idea what's going on. It doesn't spoon-feed you.

If the Angels weren't embryos incubating within eggs, I honestly wonder what you think they were doing for those fifteen years, and where they were doing it such that they'd completely avoid detection.

If you put it like that you seem very condensending.

"oh yes, we know there a bunch of naked dudes / eggs buried somewhere / floating in space, lets just wait over here until they mature and fck everything up", is that how it is supposed to be? Please ... (...) nge2 can suck it.

:uhh:

This seems like a good place to stop. I'll respond to other people, but I don't think you and I should keep at this any further.
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Postby Zoop » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:37 am

Thats the thing, in my opinion its meant to be left ambigious. With all the religious themes and all i think you cant simply explain everything just by entepreting a single sentence. Thats why i hate nge2, it turns mythology into actual science fiction.

Like, what is the chamber of guf? Is it a literal room? If anything, its some sort of space outside of the physical world a place in "heaven" if you will. I figured thats where the angels came from.

If you literally explain everything in "material" terms then it really raises more questions than it answers.

Anyway, lets leave it at that. This has gone offtopic and its clear i have a different conclusion about it.

- edited -
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Re: Was Lilin Evolution Artificially Guided?

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:48 am

View Original PostZoop wrote:If all angels start out as embryonic like Sandalphon, why didn't they put more effort in locating the angels before reaching maturity?

Because what with rebuilding civilization after the damage caused by second impact they didn't have the horrendous resources required to locate a dozen or so eggs of unknown size and appearance anywhere in the world or even in near space? How about a little practicality here?

View Original PostZoop wrote:what is the chamber of guf? [...] I figured that's where the angels came from.

No, it's where souls, both human and angel, come from. As for what it is, try Wikipedia. The Chamber of Guf and the Tree of Life are, of course, prominent in End of Evangelion.
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