EVA 2.0 OST= Kare Kano OST? WTF???

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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EVA 2.0 OST= Kare Kano OST? WTF???

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Postby TheCarkolum » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:23 pm

I've recently watched Kare Kano and, while I was watching the show, the OST was playing and I couldn't believe it. EVA 2.0 take the majority of the songs of Kare-Kano! WOW, what an infuriating blatant copy-paste!! :um: :um: :um: I mean, not all the songs are a rip-off of course, but here's the list:

2EM07_KK_B09_InDoor
2EM10_KK_C01_AddGuit
2EM12_KK_A09
2EM17_KK_A08
2EM18_KK_C01
2EM21_KK_C01_Str+AcGuit

I'm pretty sure there's more, but since they are pretty much variations of the same songs, I just leave these 6.

What do you think? I think is laziness at its finest. I mean, not all the soundtrack is bad at all, I freakin love Shiro Sagisu. But you can't take some songs from a Gainax show and put them in a Gainax movie and be OK with that, that's an insult to the audience!
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Re: EVA 2.0 OST= Kare Kano OST? WTF???

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:30 pm

In Eva 3 - Q's soundtrack he goes on to pay tribute to his Nadia soundtrack. There's nothing wrong with recycling your greatest hits - J.S.Bach did it all the time (the whole of his B-minor Mass is reworkings of movements from his cantatas, and it's still regarded as perhaps his greatest work).
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Re: EVA 2.0 OST= Kare Kano OST? WTF???

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Postby jcmoorehead » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:56 pm

And Shin Godzilla also had tracks from Eva if I'm not mistaken?

I think it's cool having those sorts of references in there add to which it's his own music, up to him what he does with it. Jim Steinman reuses parts of his old songs all the time and it doesn't diminish the brilliance of it.

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Re: EVA 2.0 OST= Kare Kano OST? WTF???

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Postby TheCarkolum » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:26 pm

It's not the same thing. Bach and others (like Pink Floyd) have done that, but the difference is, the pieces which are recycled are part of an estructure. Bach uses his previous work to include them (amongst others) within an estructured work, I mean his Mass in B minor has 4 parts, and each one has a ton of movements, and by doing this makes a packed work to improve his previous work and the new ones. Same as Pink Floyd, who puts some pieces of songs into others in order to give the album a conceptual vibe (Breathe and Time). That's not bad at all in music (if it's done with a purpose). But when you're putting a soundtrack in a show, and you copy-paste the songs in another show because you are lazy, it's insulting. Also doesn't help the fact that there's 3 variations of the same song you stole from! Wow that's cynic! And the "tribute" thing is not an excuse. There's a ton of tributes in the Gainax series, but they are done with subtlety and don't absorb the narrative . The music is meant to help the visual narrative, but if you use so many songs in two different shows, you are adjusting the show to the music and not viceversa.
Last edited by TheCarkolum on Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EVA 2.0 OST= Kare Kano OST? WTF???

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Postby Sachi » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:28 pm

They're more clever homages than anything. The Rebuild series is full of them, not only with the music. One example is the uncanny resemblance between Q!Misato and Captain Nemo. Another are the symbols associated with the Adams that ended up being taken straight from Ultraman. To those familiar with the references, they're fun Easter eggs. Anybody else won't notice.
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Re: EVA 2.0 OST= Kare Kano OST? WTF???

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Postby TheCarkolum » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:50 pm

OK. Imagine I'm a dude who is in Gainax and I make a movie, I use the 80 % of the NGE soundtrack in my movie (even though my movie has another songs) throughout the 50 % of the movie, even when the movie is tonally and plotwise different from NGE. When the press asks me, I'll say: "Hey don't worry! It's an homage!" You would be ok with that? Do homages really justify everything? And about the Shin Godzilla thing, I think some track there and there could serve as a tribute, so what? It's not the case of Eva 2.0...
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Re: EVA 2.0 OST= Kare Kano OST? WTF???

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:05 pm

I think Eva's soundtrack use in Shin Godzilla is also a clever nod to the fact the film is a reaction to the IRL Fukushima disasters of 2011, and that the official clean-up project of that disaster was named after Eva's "Operation Yashima." As a result, the scenes that involve Eva's "Operation Yashima" and the scenes that involve Shin Godzilla's "Operation Yashiori" have the same theme music. (I think both Episode 6 of NGE and the climax of Eva 1.11 have the heaviest use of those timpani drums.)

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Re: EVA 2.0 OST= Kare Kano OST? WTF???

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:10 pm

Sagisu says a bunch of stuff about the KareKano songs in his 2.0 CRC interview. I can't attempt a translation right now, but I could post scans if anyone else ever wants to.

If I had to guess, though, I would think that it's not Sagisu being lazy, so much as giving Anno what he wanted.

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Postby Cybermat47 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:06 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:And about the Shin Godzilla thing, I think some track there and there could serve as a tribute, so what? It's not the case of Eva 2.0...


Funny you should say that... 80% of Shin Godzilla's soundtrack is recycled from Evangelion, earlier Godzilla films, and Battle in Outer Space.
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Re: EVA 2.0 OST= Kare Kano OST? WTF???

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Postby Sachi » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:25 pm

Let's say you didn't know where the bits and pieces were taken from, and you were just presented with Eva 2.0. You enjoy the movie just fine, because the pieces work together. Then you realize the pieces weren't originally made for Eva, but were taken from elsewhere. Does that knowledge diminish the quality of the final product? Would the quality have not been diminished if you remained ignorant of the true nature of those bits and pieces?

Think of it as a collage. They take scraps from various different works, and mash them together to create a new and unique work of art.
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Postby TheCarkolum » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:29 pm

I didn't know about the early Godzilla films because I didn't watch them... but that's considered a tribute? Idk man. They all are Godzilla movies, so a remasterization of the classic soundtracks seems passable, it's just a monster movie eventually. The rebuilds also do that, they use The Beast track and I didn't complain abouth that. About the other film, look I don't usually remember 50s soundtrack. If there's a tribute, few people might notice and I don't think there are so many tracks of this movie, it's not as obvious as the tracks for Kare Kano.
Anyway this is not a defense of Shin Godzilla, although it looks like...

Sachi wrote:Let's say you didn't know where the bits and pieces were taken from, and you were just presented with Eva 2.0. You enjoy the movie just fine, because the pieces work together. Then you realize the pieces weren't originally made for Eva, but were taken from elsewhere. Does that knowledge diminish the quality of the final product? Would the quality have not been diminished if you remained ignorant of the true nature of those bits and pieces?


I have heard this argument soooo many times throughout my career as a film critic, but at the end of the day, it just seems a fallacy to me. Let's say there's an unknown film. You make another with the same soundtrack, the same direction, the same script and the same cuts but you change the characters, the setting and the title in order to sell the movie as original (that is, neither remake nor reboot). Let's say, the elements of the unknown movie work perfectly. That's making your movie perfect? Well, your elements work perfectly by extension but you're not making them, you're cloning them. I honestly can't give credit to that. In the case of EVA 2.0, the tracks are used in the same situations as in Kare Kano, you know, the girl with her sisters and siblings, a family situation. In the Rebuilds, they emulate this happy family situation , so of course the soundtrack works (midly I mean, it's not amazing or anything) because it will as long as it will in Kare Kano. You're taking no risks! So, I can't give any credit for that. It's laziness.
Last edited by TheCarkolum on Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Sachi » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:34 pm

The Eva tracks in Shin Godzilla are quite blatant for anybody familiar with them. They play the Decisive Battle theme like 6 times prominently.
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Postby Cybermat47 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:46 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:I didn't know about the early Godzilla films because I didn't watch them... but that's considered a tribute? Idk man. They all are Godzilla movies, so a remasterization of the classic soundtracks seems passable, it's just a monster movie eventually.


They didn't remaster any of the Akira Ifukube tracks, they just lifted them straight from the films.

And I wouldn't call Shin Godzilla "just a monster movie". It's actually a detailed commentary on the failure of the Japanese government during 3/11, the bravery of the Fukushima 50, and the complex relationship between Japan and the USA.

About the other film, look I don't usually remember 50s soundtrack. If there's a tribute, few people might notice and I don't think there are so many tracks of this movie, it's not as obvious as the tracks for Kare Kano.
Anyway this is not a defense of Shin Godzilla, although it looks like...


There are 32 tracks on the Shin Godzilla OST, only 15 of which are original pieces, and many of those are actually bonus tracks that aren't played in the movie. The Akira Ifukube music is extremely noticable due to the relatively poor quality of 1950s and 60s sound recording, and the difference between Sagisu and Ifukube's styles.

In addition, the majority of the sound effects (explosions, roars etc.) are also taken from Shōwa-era films.
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Postby TheCarkolum » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:06 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:They play the Decisive Battle theme like 6 times prominently.

6 times?? LOL really? Wow I didn't even notice, but that's because I had watched so many flicks that day that my brain wasn't awaken enough. Well I guess that's a ham fisted tribute and that's a problem too...
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Postby Cybermat47 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:19 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:6 times?? LOL really? Wow I didn't even notice, but that's because I had watched so many flicks that day that my brain wasn't awaken enough. Well I guess that's a ham fisted tribute and that's a problem too...


Actually, I thought that Decisive Battle was used very well in Shin Godzilla. It's usage in important scenes let the audience know that what was happening onscreen was a vital moment in the story, and the increasing intensity of the remixes demonstrated that things were getting more serious.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:34 pm

The music of the Rebuilds has been wonderfully reconceptualizing tracks from previous Anno projects. 1.0 used NGE tracks (naturally). 2.0 used KareKano (wonderful) & 3.0 had a few Nadia tricks sprinkled throughout (glorious).
Shiro Sagisu didn't do the music for it but I would not be surprised in the slightest if Final finds some new uses for old tracks from Gunbuster.

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Postby Sachi » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:36 pm

It seems to me the music is chosen in order to evoke similar themes as they did in their original use. I'm not familiar with Kare Kano, but Eva 2.0 intentionally aims at slice of life tropes and themes of family and friendship, which lures the audience into a false sense of security for when 3.0 comes out. Just like in Nadia, things in 3.0 are serious and world-affecting. The time for slice of life antics have passed. From what I gather, 2.0 is basically already Eva meets Kare Kano, and 3.0 is Eva meets Nadia, so using the same music helps cement the comparison.

Given Eva's status as a deconstructive series, this is fitting. Rebuild especially has been somewhat of a conversation between Anno and his audience. In many ways, 2.0 is intentionally made to appeal to mainstream audiences by using familiar tropes, such as the harem, excessive fansercive, and GAR Shinji. Many have joked that 2.0 is Anno's Eva fan fic. This set up finally pays off in 3.0 when Anno pulls the rug out from under everybody and slaps everybody in the face for thinking that these movies were going to follow the mainstream. No more harems or fanservice, and suddenly Shinji is no longer a hero.

The fact that the music between these movies also changes to reflect these themes is impressive. Again, it's like a collage used to make a new product. The comparison between Eva and these other shows are intentional, yet subtle enough to only be picked up by those in the know.
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Re: EVA 2.0 OST= Kare Kano OST? WTF???

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Postby Joseki » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:22 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:In many ways, 2.0 is intentionally made to appeal to mainstream audiences by using familiar tropes, such as the harem, excessive fansercive, and GAR Shinji. Many have joked that 2.0 is Anno's Eva fan fic. This set up finally pays off in 3.0 when Anno pulls the rug out from under everybody and slaps everybody in the face for thinking that these movies were going to follow the mainstream. No more harems or fanservice, and suddenly Shinji is no longer a hero.


I see this view on 2.0 a lot, and I had it too for a while, but after my latest rewatch I changed my mind on it and I now think that the "descent arc" started roughly with the elevator scene mid movie.
In the first half of the movie the tone is similar to NGE in between episode 8 and the first mindrape, the pilots are interacting in a friendly way, they get closer and they have almost a normal life for the first time. Then the elevetor scene arrive and things fall apart: Asuka misunderstood Rei, she retracted in her shell (the Eva) and she got deprived of every good thing Misato told her she may have experienced in the future.
Rei wanted to make Gendo and Shinji a family but the Eva 03 incident happened and Shinji got further away from her and Gendo than he ever was, then she tried to save Shinji from piloting an Eva ever again but failed. Shinji got back in Eva 01 to save her and ended up being LCL.
Misato spent two movies trying to find a way to motivate and support Shinji but everything crumbled when he left their home without even asking about Asuka, and if that wasn't enough he started an Impact in front of her eyes.

2.0 is a really sad movie, every premise of happiness gets shattered and 3.0 expand on the results of it.





Back on topic.
Sagisu not only took inspiration from previous works by Anno but also from videogames: 3EM30_GuitarForQ_Pno+Vo_Orch+Pno, the theme that plays during Kaworu's last moments, is inspired by Great Fairy's Fountain Theme from The Legend of Zelda.
Does it make the music any less impressive and emotional? Not for me.
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Re: EVA 2.0 OST= Kare Kano OST? WTF???

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Postby Cybermat47 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:54 am

View Original PostJoseki wrote:2.0 is a really sad movie, every premise of happiness gets shattered and 3.0 expand on the results of it.


"You know those characters who you've grown attatched to over the course of 26 episodes and a movie?

Well, now, they're in a new story, in a new universe. I can make it so that this time, everything will work out for them, and they won't have to suffer excruciating torment.

Would you like that?

You would?





Too bad."
- Hideaki Anno

But yeah, I actually really enjoyed 2.0. The only original part that felt more like a harem anime than anything in NGE was when Mari lands on Shinji, fumbled for her glasses, and sniffed him, and that scene didn't last for that long.
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Godzilla VS Evangelion: Who Will Know?

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Re: EVA 2.0 OST= Kare Kano OST? WTF???

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:05 am

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:It's not the same thing. Bach and others (like Pink Floyd) have done that, but the difference is, the pieces which are recycled are part of an estructure. Bach uses his previous work to include them (amongst others) within an estructured work, I mean his Mass in B minor has 4 parts, and each one has a ton of movements, and by doing this makes a packed work to improve his previous work and the new ones. Same as Pink Floyd, who puts some pieces of songs into others in order to give the album a conceptual vibe (Breathe and Time). That's not bad at all in music (if it's done with a purpose).

Bach's Mass is unstructured, in the sense that each section is a separate setting, and he has little freedom to change what texts he sets and in what order. At any rate, he didn't get to choose the structure, any more than Sagisu chose the structure of Ha (or any of the Eva films). Musically he (Bach) can help pull it together by repeating musical parts between sections, but that has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

In this case, are you saying that the film has no structure that Sagisu can help bring out by the use of appropriate music at different times? That would apply the same whether the music is newly written or parodied (whether by cloning or adaptation) from an older source.

But when you're putting a soundtrack in a show, and you copy-paste the songs in another show because you are lazy, it's insulting.

But if you don't do it because you're lazy, but because you feel that the music selected is a good fit for the film, then why is that not all right?

And the "tribute" thing is not an excuse.

Why not, if the music is in any case otherwise appropriate?

The music is meant to help the visual narrative, but if you use so many songs in two different shows, you are adjusting the show to the music and not viceversa.

That's accusing Anno (since he asked for this) of compromising his film to accommodate the music he wanted. I'd need to see actual evidence of that before giving it any credence whatsoever. If you can't substantiate that point then your last argument is worthless.
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