How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:18 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:Lt Light Ark: My disagreement is in abandoning the 'self,' but that's me. I like being me, and abandoning me is a concept that I find alien and abhorrent. I can see how it might appeal to others, though, and I think defended your stance eloquently.

Epilogue: YOU...ARE TYPING...WORDS. Things that exist because of intelligence. Forming concepts, ideas, and arguments, because of 'pesky intelligence.'

If 'intelligence' was a ridiculous concept that didn't exist, than how you are exercising the language and writing skills necessary to argue this...whatever it is you believe. It's not a philosophy, because I don't see any organization to it beyond whining self-indulgence. I mean, shit, kid: you're on an anime site. If you thought 'novels and pottery' were such meaningless contributions to human development, then what the hell are you here for?

Oh, and let's switch over to instincts now, because apparently those are bad, too. Instincts exist...because they are pre-programmed biological responses to institute reactions our basic 'logical' brains can't handle. Things like, 'pain hurts.' 'Sex feels good.' 'Food is tasty.' 'Sleep is nice.' Things that keep you from collapsing into a twitching pile of function-less tissue that can't defend itself from stray cats that would come and eat it.

Having instincts makes you an organism. And the basic instinct of 'don't do stupid shit that will make you dead, because that's fucking stupid!' is a basic instinctive drive. And human beings are organisms. Congratulations, welcome to the world. Suck it up, buttercup.

Those 'instincts' that you deride are the same things that tell you don't touch fire, don't lick knives, and don't punch bears. I am befuddled as to how you would look at that and say, "Wow, that's stupid. I should CHOOSE to chew on glass if I feel like it, because I'm a human!" You sound like the kind of person whose life is terrible you CHOSE to make it terrible. In which case, you can't blame the world: you can only blame yourself. I mean, you'd have to, if you look at the construction of an airplane and say, "Oh, we did that because it was EASY." How many died in the pioneering of aviation? How long and hard do you think the road was in engineering, mathematics, and lives lost, to get from falling off a cliff and not dying, to shooting a man millions of miles through vacuum, to hit an object moving at millions of miles per second, land him there, then bring him back to earth alive? That's 'easy?' We did that because it was 'easy?' You have the most...surreal sense of reality I have read in a long time.

Apparently, being intelligent is bad. Having instincts is bad. Everything about everything is bad. So, yeah, I am going to debunk your ideas. Humanity is amazing. It is complex, it is roiling, it is alive, it is capable of great accomplishment, and great atrocity, but it endures and evolves. That is humanity, and it is amazing. Anyone who is incapable of seeing that is just broken. They are flawed. That is not an opinion, that is a fact. There is piece missing in that person that is fundamental to existence.

As for not respecting someone choosing to do something the hard way, well: if it nets an amazing gain, is absa-fucking-lutely something worth bragging about. It is the achievement of both effort and reward, and the person who denigrates that is a person who hasn't achieved anything, and is frankly too lazy and self-indulgent to try. You don't build a computer because it's easy. You don't engineer the Internet because it's easy. The result may make life easier and convenient, but the road to that reward is...HARD. It is difficult. Years of effort, and research, and loss, and gain, was required for every little thing you have that further separates your life from squatting in the bushes and fighting off insects.

I mean, for a guy that talks about how it's preferable to end life than to keep enduring the ragged and unjust torment of the world, because, boo fucking hoo, it's so goddamned HARD to live, you seem a lot more interested in convincing OTHER people to kill themselves. Which means that you yourself know that your own stance is an inherently hypocritical and flawed. That, or you're just trolling, and you actually don't believe a word you're saying, and you're just going for what you think is the most shocking thing to say, than the most 'true' or 'real.' I feel inclined to think it's that, because what you are touting sounds very much like a teenager's idea of edgy nihilism. Shit, even nihilism is more realistic than what you are arguing. There is NOTHING logical about what you've said. There is no rhyme or reason to your arguments beyond, "Being intelligent sucks. Having instincts suck. The world sucks. Technology sucks. I'm right, your wrong, let's all kill ourselves." I'm sorry to say it, but that's not logic. That's complaining.


Oh RIP dude, I messed up with my wording in that last one. What I meant to say was that "our morality" and "our intelligence" are ridiculous concepts, because neither are truly unique to us. Being smart is good, but being human doesn't automatically mean being intelligent, and once we finally make our AI, our own intelligence won't even be impressive anymore. I gotta admit, that was very bad on my part.

As for instincts--again, not all are bad, but a lot of them are not sensible. Like our fear of heights, when we have pretty much 0 chances of falling. We should never say that something is smart and good just because it's our instinct--hell, rapists are acting on instincts, because reproduction is our strongest instinct of all.

Then, as for "choosing the hard way", let me elaborate. The process of developing the technology to fly was difficult indeed, but we did it because we wanted a easier way to get from point A to point B. We overcame a relatively short period of struggles so that we can have easier lives in the long term, and every other technological advancement was inspired by the same desire. To come up with something that will ultimately make our lives easier and more comfortable...that shouldn't be shocking. To be honest, the shocking thing would be to say that we do hard things(no innuendo intended) just for the sake of it, because I'm honestly never not surprised by a good ol' masochist.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:23 pm

I'm not going to bother any more. Each time you feel a dent being made in one of your arguments you change the rules, saying you didn't mean that* or some such. It's not worth my effort to continue (and it's almost my bedtime, so there's that).

*Oh look, you did that again while I was typing...

View Original PostEpilogue wrote:using "human" as a word of praise hurts my eyes.

None the less, you will get along better if you acknowledge your unavoidable humanity rather than simply denigrating anything and everything to do with it.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:27 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I'm not going to bother any more. Each time you feel a dent being made in one of your arguments you change the rules, saying you didn't mean that* or some such. It's not worth my effort to continue (and it's almost my bedtime, so there's that).

*Oh look, you did that again while I was typing...


None the less, you will get along better if you acknowledge your unavoidable humanity rather than simply denigrating anything and everything to do with it.

Lol this is the first time I really retconned something that I said...although, if you really look at the whole thing, I was saying how intelligence and morality aren't unique to humans the whole way through. Also, I do acknowledge that I am human, and I'm not biased. I hate my own ass more than I hate most of anyone else in the world. You really think that I'd still be sticking around, if I didn't want to waste all the investments that my parents put in me? It's been a long time since I've stopped living for myself, dude.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:32 pm

That was actually about the fourth time you 'retconned' something, and it's not retconning: it's changing the parameters of what you're arguing. You're trying to say, "Oh, I meant something else," but...we all see what you wrote. It's there. It's still there.

If we all see one interpretation, and you claim it's something else, that's not on the majority of readers who see the exact same thing. That's on YOU. And you are saying exactly what you mean. It's just that what you mean is not sustainable in a long term argument.

But as for intelligence and morality, they ARE unique to us: there is no AI. Until the Singularity, or we determine there intelligent life elsewhere, we're it! And even if we aren't that unique in terms of that, we are still able to perceive ourselves, and our actions. Our morality. Our intelligence. We think, therefore we exist. We choose, we move. We are the engines of our creation, destruction, and advancement. That is human, and being human.

As is our instincts: we have the ability to override them by choice, something the large majority of other organisms cannot do. Your fear of heights will not prevent you from a climbing a cliff if you choose to climb that cliff. A rapist will not rape a woman (which, believe it or not, is not based on reproductive drives!) if he chooses to. I mean, if rape was the result of the reproductive instinct, every single man out there would be a barely contained, simmering pot of violent rage waiting to get their anger spunk all over everything.

Hell, it's not even an accurate assessment of our strongest drive: our strongest drive is going to be a toss-up between 'self-preservation' and 'stimulation,' both of which can lead to big problems WITHOUT our human intelligence. Your self-preservation drive can send you into a panic that will place you in dangerous situations, but your human intelligence can give you the guidance necessary to use that drive as fuel for correct action.

Human beings, unlike other animals, can program their instincts, because we know how to.

Now, if we wanted just...easier ways to do things, we wouldn't simply choose a difficult and painful path to get there. We don't invent things to just make life easier, we invent to them to improve life...to better it. Which still holds to the fact that sometimes, you have to do hard shit to get good things in life. If you want a healthy body, you're probably going to have to run two to five miles a week, lift a bunch of weights, control diet, and a lot things that just not fun, but will make you feel better, move faster, and be stronger than just indulging in the 'easy' things in life. You don't do hard things to say, "Oh, I do hard things because I like to do hard things, it gets me off!"

You do them, because what you earn for that task is worth the pain. Suffering for suffering's sake is pointless, but suffering for something worth having is EVERYTHING.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:59 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:That was actually about the fourth time you 'retconned' something, and it's not retconning: it's changing the parameters of what you're arguing. You're trying to say, "Oh, I meant something else," but...we all see what you wrote. It's there. It's still there.

If we all see one interpretation, and you claim it's something else, that's not on the majority of readers who see the exact same thing. That's on YOU. And you are saying exactly what you mean. It's just that what you mean is not sustainable in a long term argument.

But as for intelligence and morality, they ARE unique to us: there is no AI. Until the Singularity, or we determine there intelligent life elsewhere, we're it! And even if we aren't that unique in terms of that, we are still able to perceive ourselves, and our actions. Our morality. Our intelligence. We think, therefore we exist. We choose, we move. We are the engines of our creation, destruction, and advancement. That is human, and being human.

As is our instincts: we have the ability to override them by choice, something the large majority of other organisms cannot do. Your fear of heights will not prevent you from a climbing a cliff if you choose to climb that cliff. A rapist will not rape a woman (which, believe it or not, is not based on reproductive drives!) if he chooses to. I mean, if rape was the result of the reproductive instinct, every single man out there would be a barely contained, simmering pot of violent rage waiting to get their anger spunk all over everything.

Hell, it's not even an accurate assessment of our strongest drive: our strongest drive is going to be a toss-up between 'self-preservation' and 'stimulation,' both of which can lead to big problems WITHOUT our human intelligence. Your self-preservation drive can send you into a panic that will place you in dangerous situations, but your human intelligence can give you the guidance necessary to use that drive as fuel for correct action.

Human beings, unlike other animals, can program their instincts, because we know how to.

Now, if we wanted just...easier ways to do things, we wouldn't simply choose a difficult and painful path to get there. We don't invent things to just make life easier, we invent to them to improve life...to better it. Which still holds to the fact that sometimes, you have to do hard shit to get good things in life. If you want a healthy body, you're probably going to have to run two to five miles a week, lift a bunch of weights, control diet, and a lot things that just not fun, but will make you feel better, move faster, and be stronger than just indulging in the 'easy' things in life. You don't do hard things to say, "Oh, I do hard things because I like to do hard things, it gets me off!"

You do them, because what you earn for that task is worth the pain. Suffering for suffering's sake is pointless, but suffering for something worth having is EVERYTHING.


Honestly, I don't see myself retconning because I'm trying to fill in the gaps between each of my points. This tends to happen when you're someone like me, who has an entire thought process developed already but sucks at laying it out all at once. For example, when I brought out the Chinese proverb, I (mistakenly, of course)assumed that we could all make the leap of "people register quality too differently, so quantity is the only thing we can go by". So then, a few comments down the line, I have to go back and cover that. Because I'm an idiot who thinks that other people can read my mind. I am saying what I mean, but I'm doing it very poorly...

On the subject of rapists, I still believe it's a matter of instinct versus nurtured self-control. Like, males kind of are wired to want to stick their dicks in everything that tickles them right, but they are raised with the knowledge that doing whatever they pleased will lead to severe consequences. The instinct of fear and self-preservation beats down the power of boner, you know. I mean, when a guy courts a girl, do you think he's doing it because he enjoys the process of courting, or the reward...? He's just trying to get something that he really wants without being punished afterward. Also, I totally agree with you on the survival and stimulation thing, but is intercourse not the highest form of physical stimulation, designed to reward the animal that has completed its most sacred task of passing down its own DNA? I can't believe I have to say this again, but instincts aren't 100% trustworthy. So, just because we're programmed to want to live, doesn't mean that living is always the better choice. It can be, but it isn't necessarily, and when it is, it's not because it's an instinct.

Regarding intelligence: again, not saying it sucks. Just saying that we aren't the only smart thing around, and we won't even be the smartest for much longer. Yeah, we can program our instincts, but so can a dog that gets a treat when he pees in a designated spot...

Regarding the hardship part; uh, I'm not even sure how to put this anymore, but have you imagined what it would be like to travel and do business if we didn't have planes...? We did make life easier. We are making life easier with the current stuff that we do. And we will be making even more advancements, because we want things to be even easier still. We want self-improvement, because improving ourselves will always mean that the same tasks become easier for us, and that's about as simply as I can explain this.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:02 pm

Honestly, I don't see myself retconning because I'm trying to fill in the gaps between each of my points.


Lol this is the first time I really retconned something that I said


:scanners_head:

...rapists.

...what about asexual romantics? You know, people repulsed or uninterested in sex, but desire close human companionship? Believe it or not, the fundamental purpose most men have in romantically pursuing women is not just layered around sex. There's about ninety percent of what goes into a relationship beyond sex. Further, it's already been WELL documented, studied, and torn to pieces that rape (of both and women) is a power drive, not a sex drive. It's the same impulse that makes a person want to beat the shit out of someone smaller. It's domination.

And we ARE the smartest thing around. You use the example of a dog learning not to pee in the house.

Who gives the dog a treat? Who figured out how to program the dog's instincts? It wasn't the dog. Dogs didn't go from ravenous pack hunters to floppy eared goofballs on their own.

And you can explain making life easier all you want. You're right: we like luxury. We like ease. We like to be able to make things more efficient.

...but have we?

When I was working in Washington, D.C., there was never a period when a person was not working. That was back when Blackberries were the big thing. So, unless a person was sleeping (for maybe...four hours), they were working. There was never a free moment: it was work. Constant work, because you had this little device that was supposed to make life easy and convenient for you right in your hand, and it meant that anywhere, at anytime, you could type a memo, respond to a crisis, talk, text, network, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It made many things easier, but also made life more complicated. It allowed us to make our lives harder, but that constant grind? Also means our government was working at fifty times the speed it was before.

Yeah: this is what a government with TOO MUCH information looks like.

But you still seem to be missing the point of what I'm getting at with choosing to do hard tasks, so, let me try and be a bit more frank: if you would like to have a life that is more significant than shitting, eating paper, and staring at the wall until your eyes shut down, you need to put some effort into it. You can say that life is not worth the effort, but whether you are farming for crops on your subsistence farm, or earning some dollars behind a cash register, you have to put effort into getting anything of worth. Your paycheck is worth. Your education is worth. A better job is worth.

Things of value demand work. You work to gain value. That is it. That is a basic truth of living, and whether you like it or not, that is existence in a nutshell.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:42 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote::scanners_head:

...rapists.

...what about asexual romantics? You know, people repulsed or uninterested in sex, but desire close human companionship? Believe it or not, the fundamental purpose most men have in romantically pursuing women is not just layered around sex. There's about ninety percent of what goes into a relationship beyond sex. Further, it's already been WELL documented, studied, and torn to pieces that rape (of both and women) is a power drive, not a sex drive. It's the same impulse that makes a person want to beat the shit out of someone smaller. It's domination.

And we ARE the smartest thing around. You use the example of a dog learning not to pee in the house.

Who gives the dog a treat? Who figured out how to program the dog's instincts? It wasn't the dog. Dogs didn't go from ravenous pack hunters to floppy eared goofballs on their own.

And you can explain making life easier all you want. You're right: we like luxury. We like ease. We like to be able to make things more efficient.

...but have we?

When I was working in Washington, D.C., there was never a period when a person was not working. That was back when Blackberries were the big thing. So, unless a person was sleeping (for maybe...four hours), they were working. There was never a free moment: it was work. Constant work, because you had this little device that was supposed to make life easy and convenient for you right in your hand, and it meant that anywhere, at anytime, you could type a memo, respond to a crisis, talk, text, network, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It made many things easier, but also made life more complicated. It allowed us to make our lives harder, but that constant grind? Also means our government was working at fifty times the speed it was before.

Yeah: this is what a government with TOO MUCH information looks like.

But you still seem to be missing the point of what I'm getting at with choosing to do hard tasks, so, let me try and be a bit more frank: if you would like to have a life that is more significant than shitting, eating paper, and staring at the wall until your eyes shut down, you need to put some effort into it. You can say that life is not worth the effort, but whether you are farming for crops on your subsistence farm, or earning some dollars behind a cash register, you have to put effort into getting anything of worth. Your paycheck is worth. Your education is worth. A better job is worth.

Things of value demand work. You work to gain value. That is it. That is a basic truth of living, and whether you like it or not, that is existence in a nutshell.

OK at this point I'm beginning to believe in myself and doubt your comprehensive skills. "I don't see" is what I perceive myself doing, and there is a high possibility of that not matching objective reality. Whereas I feel like I'm either adding back stuff that I thought you'd know without me saying, or fixing a statement that did not express my actual thought, you feel like I'm bringing new things to the table...Does that explain it better?

Asexual romantics...how much of our population is made up of those people?

We are currently the smartest thing around, but it won't be that way for long. I'm not someone who believes in living only in the moment--legit, when I get a temporary buff in video games, I feel like getting rid of it immediately because it doesn't fucking last. I actively hate things that don't last.

Also, giving dogs a treat is fundamentally no different from training a human being to be a functional member of society. The level of sophistication is not the same, of course, but like dogs, humans have to be trained to behave. You think that our world wouldn't be brimming with violent criminals if we did not use reinforcement to regulate human behaviors?

As for making life easier, for the last time, YES WE HAVE! Working our asses off is hard, but is it harder than eating each other's shit off the ground, and worrying about survival only? And, is a big-ass government easier than living in the Warlord Era, where it's legit just a bunch of private militias running around gunning each other down? Self-improvement will always be because we want to make life easier. Working hard for a goal is normal and admirable, but right now, all I hear you say is that working hard for ANY goal, ANY reward, is worth it. I don't fucking buy that, not one bit.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:58 pm

"I don't see" is what I perceive myself doing, and there is a high possibility of that not matching objective reality. Whereas I feel like I'm either adding back stuff that I thought you'd know without me saying, or fixing a statement that did not express my actual thought, you feel like I'm bringing new things to the table...Does that explain it better?


No, it really doesn't: you've doubled back, and doubled down so many times, I'd be surprised if God knew what you were talking about.

And, yes: we regulate behaviors very similarly to dogs. That was the point: human beings know how to do this, and we do to ourselves and each. Dogs don't know how to do it. Are you disagreeing with me by...agreeing with me?

And again, which...probably not for the last time, because I'm seeing a circular pattern here: yes...things are easier. Congratulations, you've stated self-evident facts (which I brought up in the first place, to demonstrate how amazing humans were to begin with!) that life is, objectively, easier now. That doesn't change the fact that, even as easy as life, you have to FUCKING WORK to get anything. You want a video game? Buy it. You don't have money to buy it? Get a fucking job. Can't find a job? Figure it out. Rob a bank, for all I care. Take action.

Are you hungry? Get up, go get some food out the fridge, and feed yourself. No food? Go to the store. Put some effort into living.

See this quote here? The one you tried to make a clincher?:

all I hear you say is that working hard for ANY goal, ANY reward, is worth it. I don't fucking buy that, not one bit.


Any goal, or any reward, WORTH HAVING, is worth working hard for. If you aren't willing to work hard for it, then a) you don't want it, b) it's not really worth it, therefore not a goal or reward, or c) you're lazy, you don't want to put the work into getting what you want, you want it anyways, and it's easier to blame the world for being a bad place than accepting that you lack the skills, drive, or ability to get what you want.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
-Sorrow

Rei wanted to know what waffles tasted like.
-Literary Eagle

We have to remember what's important in life: friends, waffles, and work. Or waffles, friends, and work. But work has to come in third.
-Leslie Knope

Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:17 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:No, it really doesn't: you've doubled back, and doubled down so many times, I'd be surprised if God knew what you were talking about.

And, yes: we regulate behaviors very similarly to dogs. That was the point: human beings know how to do this, and we do to ourselves and each. Dogs don't know how to do it. Are you disagreeing with me by...agreeing with me?

And again, which...probably not for the last time, because I'm seeing a circular pattern here: yes...things are easier. Congratulations, you've stated self-evident facts (which I brought up in the first place, to demonstrate how amazing humans were to begin with!) that life is, objectively, easier now. That doesn't change the fact that, even as easy as life, you have to FUCKING WORK to get anything. You want a video game? Buy it. You don't have money to buy it? Get a fucking job. Can't find a job? Figure it out. Rob a bank, for all I care. Take action.

Are you hungry? Get up, go get some food out the fridge, and feed yourself. No food? Go to the store. Put some effort into living.

See this quote here? The one you tried to make a clincher?:



Any goal, or any reward, WORTH HAVING, is worth working hard for. If you aren't willing to work hard for it, then a) you don't want it, b) it's not really worth it, therefore not a goal or reward, or c) you're lazy, you don't want to put the work into getting what you want, you want it anyways, and it's easier to blame the world for being a bad place than accepting that you lack the skills, drive, or ability to get what you want.


I have to keep doubling back, because I keep failing to making things clear with the initial go. And I fail because I keep assuming that they would be clear without any explanation. Again, my bad.

For the regulating behavior thing, my point is that it's not innately human for us to control our instincts. We have to teach the new humans something that we've stumbled upon somewhere up the stream of time. Thus, self-control isn't a virtue that is unique human, either. THAT's the point I was trying to make. I'm trying to stop you from giving humanity unwarranted praise. We have everything that we have, only because we got lucky and evolved a part of our body that happens to have a shitload of potential.

Also, I'm saying that things are easier so that you would understand, while we do bring ourselves to do some short term tough shit, we are still doing it because we're lazy, because life isn't as easy as we want it to be. It sounds to me like you never accepted that, and just went off to repeat that life is in fact still hard af.

Finally, I feel like whether or not a goal is worth it is dependent on the process of obtaining it. There comes a point where a result is not worth the loops that you have to jump through to obtain it. Like, as I mentioned wayyyyy the fuck back, the cheap labor workers who make those made in China stuff, they're doing too much work for how little they make, and that's why we have minimum wage in America to prevent that kind of shit from happening. Effort is good. Effort is admirable. But if you're doing the work of a $50000/year job, and only earning $10000, then the effort is objectively not worth it, capeesh?

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:43 pm

...I have...no fucking clue what you're talking about anymore. None at all.

You were the one that said this world was too hard to endure: you were one that said if eight or nine things out of ten were bad, then life is not worth living. So....

What does this mean?:

Also, I'm saying that things are easier so that you would understand, while we do bring ourselves to do some short term tough shit, we are still doing it because we're lazy, because life isn't as easy as we want it to be. It sounds to me like you never accepted that, and just went off to repeat that life is in fact still hard af.


That's a complete contradiction of what you said. If life is not worth living, is because it's easy as fuck? If so, how is hard to endure? Are you unable to endure what's easy? Do you want more challenge? What are you even talking about anymore?

...let's just...move on to the other parts of your response:

We have everything that we have, only because we got lucky and evolved a part of our body that happens to have a shitload of potential.


Yeah, we did get lucky: and that's amazing. You're damn right I'll praise that, because it is a frigging miracle it happened at all. If everything we have now is just based on chance, that's AWESOME. That is lottery odds.

But if you're doing the work of a $50000/year job, and only earning $10000, then the effort is objectively not worth it, capeesh?


Okay, remember when I said...several times in a row, that anything worth having was worth working hard for? Workers rights. The rights of a person to earn a living wage. Justice for those who don't have it. Are you saying...that's not worth fighting for? It's not worth trying to ensure that people earn what they deserve? That we should be lazy, and just roll on our backs and whine about how unfair the world is?

...you keep acting like you're stating some profound, nihilistic truth about the human condition, but it keeps sounding...like whining. You keep bringing up how unfair the world is, and when I say, "DO something about it," you're response is, "Oh, I wasn't understood," or, "Oh, it's not worth obtaining," or one of three or four other excuses you've used.

Like I said: it's either worth having, or you don't have the desire to get it. It's one or the other: it's that simple.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:56 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:...I have...no fucking clue what you're talking about anymore. None at all.

You were the one that said this world was too hard to endure: you were one that said if eight or nine things out of ten were bad, then life is not worth living. So....

What does this mean?:



That's a complete contradiction of what you said. If life is not worth living, is because it's easy as fuck? If so, how is hard to endure? Are you unable to endure what's easy? Do you want more challenge? What are you even talking about anymore?

...let's just...move on to the other parts of your response:



Yeah, we did get lucky: and that's amazing. You're damn right I'll praise that, because it is a frigging miracle it happened at all. If everything we have now is just based on chance, that's AWESOME. That is lottery odds.



Okay, remember when I said...several times in a row, that anything worth having was worth working hard for? Workers rights. The rights of a person to earn a living wage. Justice for those who don't have it. Are you saying...that's not worth fighting for? It's not worth trying to ensure that people earn what they deserve? That we should be lazy, and just roll on our backs and whine about how unfair the world is?

...you keep acting like you're stating some profound, nihilistic truth about the human condition, but it keeps sounding...like whining. You keep bringing up how unfair the world is, and when I say, "DO something about it," you're response is, "Oh, I wasn't understood," or, "Oh, it's not worth obtaining," or one of three or four other excuses you've used.

Like I said: it's either worth having, or you don't have the desire to get it. It's one or the other: it's that simple.

Oh my God. Remember all the times that I said that the 1 good thing in life isn't worth the 8~9 bad things that accompany it? Those 8~9 bad things are the hoops that we have to jump through to get to the result of the 1 good thing, and that's objectively not good. And, no matter how much easier life becomes materialistically, life WILL find new and inventive ways to fuck us up.That Chinese proverb has been around and withstood a couple thousand years of technologically advancement, no reason to believe that it'll be any different from hereon out.

And then, I like that you just come out and admit that you would PRAISE someone for winning a lottery. As though they actually did anything to deserve it. As though it was something good about them that EARNED them the prize. I think we can drop that subject, because we'll never come to an agreement on that. I will never believe the "luck is part of your ability bullshit", thank you very much.

Finally, the rights of workers are worth fighting for, but working jobs that pay clearly insufficient wages--THAT is the effort not worth exerting. I'm 100% sure that that is not a complicated statement, so please put a modicum of effort into reading. People should not roll on their backs and whine; if they are faced with an injustice, either physically destroy the distributer or the injustice, or physically destroy themselves so that said distributer will no longer have the pleasure of dishing out the injustice.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:43 am

If your alternative to working a back-breaking job for little pay is starving to death, I think it might be worth it.

Finally, the rights of workers are worth fighting for, but working jobs that pay clearly insufficient wages--THAT is the effort not worth exerting. I'm 100% sure that that is not a complicated statement, so please put a modicum of effort into reading.


Cute.

What are they supposed to do while their rights are being fought for? Not work? Not earn money? Not support their families? Has it ever occurred to you that people often undertake these arduous and thankless tasks for things beyond the immediate wage? That there is a greater and longer purpose for why these things are done?

Besides, you're still contradicting what you said: is life too easy, or is it too hard? You keep throwing around this 'Chinese proverb,' but the more I'm looking at it (and I can't find the damn thing, so I'm skeptical of it), the more I'm thinking you misinterpreted it: that you have to go through eight to nine bad things to earn something of worth.

And then, I like that you just come out and admit that you would PRAISE someone for winning a lottery. As though they actually did anything to deserve it. As though it was something good about them that EARNED them the prize.


So, what do you do when something fortunate happens to someone you know, whether they earned it or not? "Hey, life is randomly good for you, guy: go fuck yourself." Of course you'd praise someone if something good happens to them: that is a normal human reaction. "Something good happened in your life, and because I value you as a human, I want you to know that I am happy for you." That's what non-sociopathic people with empathy do. They share joy.

...here's the thing, kid: clearly, you are a miserable person. I don't know why, and I honestly don't care that much. I have enough peoples issues I have to balance and watch for in my life. The thing that is frustrating about this conversation we're having is that you seem to think what you are saying is as plain as day, but it's not, and it's not because I lack 'reading comprehension skills,' or 'basic social function' skills. Aside from the fact that I still can't figure out what your complaint about the world is (too bad, too easy, too...whatever), the one thing I can see is that you seem to think that all of us should be as equally, if not more, miserable than you, and you can't understand why we aren't.

I've stated several, I think, fairly self-evident facts about why people undertake shit living conditions, and why that's 'worth' it (if not for the basic fact that starvation sucks: try it sometime. It's no fun). It's not an endorsement of a wonderful world, but it's not an indictment of a terrible world. The world just is. That is all there is to it. And if you are having trouble conveying otherwise to the rest of us, the issue isn't in our inability to understand what you're saying.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:34 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:If your alternative to working a back-breaking job for little pay is starving to death, I think it might be worth it.



Cute.

What are they supposed to do while their rights are being fought for? Not work? Not earn money? Not support their families? Has it ever occurred to you that people often undertake these arduous and thankless tasks for things beyond the immediate wage? That there is a greater and longer purpose for why these things are done?

Besides, you're still contradicting what you said: is life too easy, or is it too hard? You keep throwing around this 'Chinese proverb,' but the more I'm looking at it (and I can't find the damn thing, so I'm skeptical of it), the more I'm thinking you misinterpreted it: that you have to go through eight to nine bad things to earn something of worth.



So, what do you do when something fortunate happens to someone you know, whether they earned it or not? "Hey, life is randomly good for you, guy: go fuck yourself." Of course you'd praise someone if something good happens to them: that is a normal human reaction. "Something good happened in your life, and because I value you as a human, I want you to know that I am happy for you." That's what non-sociopathic people with empathy do. They share joy.

...here's the thing, kid: clearly, you are a miserable person. I don't know why, and I honestly don't care that much. I have enough peoples issues I have to balance and watch for in my life. The thing that is frustrating about this conversation we're having is that you seem to think what you are saying is as plain as day, but it's not, and it's not because I lack 'reading comprehension skills,' or 'basic social function' skills. Aside from the fact that I still can't figure out what your complaint about the world is (too bad, too easy, too...whatever), the one thing I can see is that you seem to think that all of us should be as equally, if not more, miserable than you, and you can't understand why we aren't.

I've stated several, I think, fairly self-evident facts about why people undertake shit living conditions, and why that's 'worth' it (if not for the basic fact that starvation sucks: try it sometime. It's no fun). It's not an endorsement of a wonderful world, but it's not an indictment of a terrible world. The world just is. That is all there is to it. And if you are having trouble conveying otherwise to the rest of us, the issue isn't in our inability to understand what you're saying.


I'm pretty sure that I explained the easy vs. hard part right in that last comment...something along the lines of "science has made living easier, but the world will find new and inventive ways to fuck us no matter how far we advance". You should go back and look for it. As for the proverb, “人生不如意事十之八九”. That's the exact saying. I'm honestly not sure there even is an official English version, but if you showed this to any Chinese speaking/reading person, you'll get a similar translation to the one I used.

And I think I made a general statement about what people should do when their efforts are not rewarded fairly in that last comment as well. In terms of the workers not being paid, what they should do is either go out and kill the employer exploiting them, or when that isn't an option, kill themselves collectively so the employer is left with no worker and no way of running the business. Compromising and enduring is the shittiest possible option that should never even be considered in the first place.

And, about the lottery thing, I tell would tell people "congratulations", but I would never tell them "nice job winning that lottery". I feel like there's a big difference between the two.

Finally, my complaint about this world is simple as can be. On average, bad things happen more often than good things, and that's just not OK. I don't see how that's super hard to get, and I don't see why anyone else would actively choose to endure this.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:24 pm

Do you have to quote the whole of the post above yours every time? It just makes the thread twice as long and means we have to scroll a lot more.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:38 pm

what they should do is either go out and kill the employer exploiting them, or when that isn't an option, kill themselves collectively so the employer is left with no worker and no way of running the business.


Jesus tap dancing Christ: I mean, there are clearly dozens of other options that are available and have been utilized by people throughout history beyond 'kill or kill yourself en masse.' The fact that you literally think this is the only logical answer to any sort of 'problem' you present indicates that you are already arguing from a position so absurd, so unrealistic, and so off-the-wall ridiculous, I have no idea how to even communicate with you.

The reason it's so 'super hard' to get is because the stance you are arguing from is so...illogical, and just straight up bizarre, there is no frame of reference I can even fall back on to try and figure where you stand.

I have to end this conversation. I have no interest in seeing what other mind-numbing pseudo-nihilism you'll try and stun the world with.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby xanderkh » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:43 pm

^ Yeah, I'm with Gob. This conversation has been milked to the point of it being so WROUGHT with bacteria, that there's no point in drinking this anymore.

You think the world is not worth being in? Fine, that's YOUR problem.

As for the rest of us, we're quite content and happy with our existence, so enjoy stewing in your own self-inflicted misery.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
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Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:54 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:As for the rest of us, we're quite content and happy with our existence,

Or if we're not, we can see the possibility of doing something about it (and some of us even do).
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:00 pm

^

Exactly. Because life isn't a multiple choice test where the only options are "A: Suffer, or B: Kill yourself."
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby fukuda » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:46 pm

Life is actually really cool but it's like a really stupid cat that can't catch mice. It's still fun to have around, but long-term, it's useless.
By the way, you can't escape existence. Even suicide can't save you. Life and Death encompass Existence, so you can't even stop living, even if you wanted to.

Life, in total, is shitpost.
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konna kimochi setsuna sugiru no

onegai tomete…
koi no yokushiryoku

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:54 pm

Meeeeeehhhhhhhh....myeah, I can see your point.

I prefer to see life as a drunken binge, one step ahead of the Russians and lawyers, wearing someone else's shoes and waving a revolver in the air.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Rei wanted to know what waffles tasted like.
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Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?


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