How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:35 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Your words were different; it helps if you say what you mean. We can only respond to what you actually write.


I mean, I've always thought that everything I say would have an unwritten "should" in front of it. I'll only ever have suggestions and arguments to back them up, but I won't give out commands, because I know I can't physically make anyone do anything across the internet, lol.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:37 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Okay...wow. Just....wow. I've encountered my far share of nihilists on this site alone, but this is the first time I've seen someone write this level of hopelessness. Congratulations.

And seriously, is your argument based on the face that bad things happen to people that there's no point in living if shit happens in this world? Epilogue, that's how this system works. Good and evil, happiness and sadness, pain and pleasure. We need both to have the other to exist. Yes, there are times that life sucks and shoots a crapshoot at us, but that only means to give us reason to treasure the joyful moments that come.

Because if everything in our lives were as we wanted it, what would be the point in getting out of bed? Conflict is necessary for growth as an individual.


I'm not bashing the concept of struggling for progress. My problem is with the fact that to earn the money to get yourself one object you want, you usually have to go through six or seven different layers of shit. Like I said earlier, we're being ripped off.
Last edited by Epilogue on Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:49 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Okay...wow. Just....wow. I've encountered my far share of nihilists on this site alone, but this is the first time I've seen someone write this level of hopelessness. Congratulations.

And seriously, is your argument based on the face that bad things happen to people that there's no point in living if shit happens in this world? Epilogue, that's how this system works. Good and evil, happiness and sadness, pain and pleasure. We need both to have the other to exist. Yes, there are times that life sucks and shoots a crapshoot at us, but that only means to give us reason to treasure the joyful moments that come.

Because if everything in our lives were as we wanted it, what would be the point in getting out of bed? Conflict is necessary for growth as an individual.


Just a question (my points were already debunked and I am still trying to come up with something logical)

When you say 'conflict' you also mean war? As in the sense of conflicts between nations? Because then one could argue that conflict in that sense doesn't really was worth it (principally if you end up invalid or end up losing everything that you knew)

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:50 pm

Finally, what I'm saying should not be translated as telling rape victims to kill themselves. I'm telling everybody to kill themselves, because chances are, rape won't even be the worst bad thing to happen to each of us, or the last.


That is Hot Topic, book-binder philosophy right there. I am having hard time taking your stance seriously because of this statement.

There are people in this world who have suffered tremendously, and unless your typing with your tongue because you've lost both arms and legs, I doubt you get to say that you're on the same scale they have. And yet, they somehow can recognize an objectively good day from an objectively bad one. Because, as you've said, suffering is objective.

But what you're doing is inherently hypocritical: you are stating that to call pain objective is an opinion, but you're doing so from the assertion that your 'everything sucks, why bother' philosophy is inherent fact. It's not: it's not even truth. It's just an opinion, and it's a frankly selfish and silly opinion, at that.

It's the assertion from a person that believes the world exists solely for them, whether it's to benefit or torment them. It's an almost narcissistic view that demands the holder create massive blind spots to justify their beliefs. You think I don't have an 'objective' view of how difficult life is, but let me disabuse you of that notion.

I spent the last week under so much stress that I lost twelve pounds. Not from exercise, but from the sheer mental demands I placed on myself to perform tasks, and the desire to gain something at the end of that which I had placed so much importance on, failing to achieve it was unthinkable. I did that for a week, and it was all for a little pin. Just a little pin, nothing more. And that little pin is the sort of thing that all that stress, all that frustration, is worth. Because I have that little pin when many don't. I earned it. It's mine.

I earned the busted ear I have, and the broken eye socket. I earned the scars, the chipped teeth, the twisted fingers, the crooked nose, and every other hurt and discomfort I've ever had. I have earned them all, and that is life. What is the price you pay to live life? If you say the price is too hard, if it's too much to pay, I don't know what to tell you: it's frankly ridiculous to look at everybody (which according to you doesn't mean 'everybody,' but last time I checked, everybody was everybody) and say, "Hey, kill yourselves! This world sucks."

Of course this world sucks. It also rules. I look at my niece and nephews and say, "This world is a world worth living it." There are people in this world who make eight dollars an hour, have six of them taken away, and still somehow can tell me with a straight face that the world is amazing: because as unjust as their situation is, they can feed their family. They can provide for themselves.

If the world is a shitty place, fix it. That is what you do. 'Kill yourself' is the lazy answer. It's a bullshit answer. You fight to make the world a better place because that is your obligation as a human being. As a member of this human community, you owe it to yourself and everyone else to do that. Claiming that it's just so damned hard, because whatever rubric you measure your life by means you have a harder life than everyone else (which, sorry to say it: if you can argue your position on the Internet, you probably don't have such a bad life), is frankly unacceptable. People in broken places are fighting for their lives, just to live one more day. They fight tooth and nail, in hellish conditions, with no food and dirty water, to live, because that is how precious life is.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:02 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:That is Hot Topic, book-binder philosophy right there. I am having hard time taking your stance seriously because of this statement.

There are people in this world who have suffered tremendously, and unless your typing with your tongue because you've lost both arms and legs, I doubt you get to say that you're on the same scale they have. And yet, they somehow can recognize an objectively good day from an objectively bad one. Because, as you've said, suffering is objective.

But what you're doing is inherently hypocritical: you are stating that to call pain objective is an opinion, but you're doing so from the assertion that your 'everything sucks, why bother' philosophy is inherent fact. It's not: it's not even truth. It's just an opinion, and it's a frankly selfish and silly opinion, at that.

It's the assertion from a person that believes the world exists solely for them, whether it's to benefit or torment them. It's an almost narcissistic view that demands the holder create massive blind spots to justify their beliefs. You think I don't have an 'objective' view of how difficult life is, but let me disabuse you of that notion.

I spent the last week under so much stress that I lost twelve pounds. Not from exercise, but from the sheer mental demands I placed on myself to perform tasks, and the desire to gain something at the end of that which I had placed so much importance on, failing to achieve it was unthinkable. I did that for a week, and it was all for a little pin. Just a little pin, nothing more. And that little pin is the sort of thing that all that stress, all that frustration, is worth. Because I have that little pin when many don't. I earned it. It's mine.

I earned the busted ear I have, and the broken eye socket. I earned the scars, the chipped teeth, the twisted fingers, the crooked nose, and every other hurt and discomfort I've ever had. I have earned them all, and that is life. What is the price you pay to live life? If you say the price is too hard, if it's too much to pay, I don't know what to tell you: it's frankly ridiculous to look at everybody (which according to you doesn't mean 'everybody,' but last time I checked, everybody was everybody) and say, "Hey, kill yourselves! This world sucks."

Of course this world sucks. It also rules. I look at my niece and nephews and say, "This world is a world worth living it." There are people in this world who make eight dollars an hour, have six of them taken away, and still somehow can tell me with a straight face that the world is amazing: because as unjust as their situation is, they can feed their family. They can provide for themselves.

If the world is a shitty place, fix it. That is what you do. 'Kill yourself' is the lazy answer. It's a bullshit answer. You fight to make the world a better place because that is your obligation as a human being. As a member of this human community, you owe it to yourself and everyone else to do that. Claiming that it's just so damned hard, because whatever rubric you measure your life by means you have a harder life than everyone else (which, sorry to say it: if you can argue your position on the Internet, you probably don't have such a bad life), is frankly unacceptable. People in broken places are fighting for their lives, just to live one more day. They fight tooth and nail, in hellish conditions, with no food and dirty water, to live, because that is how precious life is.


Lol, first of all, I just have to say that "life is precious" is an animalistic concept. Life by itself has no meaning--we just want to cling to it, because it is the most basic instinct of any animal to survive and pass on their DNA. It's not logical, and it shouldn't be a point used in debates, because this is the idea that ties us closer to beasts than anything else, far worse than eating raw food or not having a language.

Secondly, if you read my whole thing, I'm not so much saying "life sucks" as I am saying "life won't reward us fairly for our struggles". You can certainly have days where there are objectively more plentiful in number than bad things, but when you total all the days across an entire lifetime, you'd be really hard-pressed to find someone who experiences more joyful events than sorrowful ones. It's basically what it's like to be the cheap labor used to make those "made in China" stuff, actually. Like, of course those people can still find joy with their meager wage, but objectively, is the wage they earn fair for the work they do? I can certainly respect you for your struggles, but please forgive me for saying that I can't respect you at all for thinking at you deserve to suffer through the things you did, for the little good that you receive in return. In the end, the things worse than being raped can all boil down to the world taking from us and not giving us sufficient compensation.

Finally, I've always thought that if someone did not care for me, then I should avoid any form of association with that person. I don't see how this cannot extend to the world we live in. It's 100% true that we live in a world that doesn't give two shits about us, which to me is all the more reason to cease living in it.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:05 pm

View Original PostEpilogue wrote:I am saying "life won't reward us fairly for our struggles"

There is no objective measure of fairness - you have to make up your own. So all you're saying is "I don't like it".
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby xanderkh » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:08 pm

Epilogue, that's life.

Of course the universe doesn't give two shits about us, that's just the way the universe is. We're a small part of a much bigger picture.

But instead of dwelling on the negatives and the meaningless of our existence, how about we give ourselves meaning to our existence to make our days worth living.

And no, that's not me trivializing the suffering that goes on, I mean we have to find meaning in our own existence to find the joy in this world. Each of us has that choice.

If you choose not to, fine. Just don't tell everyone else who does find value in this world that they shouldn't.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:09 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:There is no objective measure of fairness - you have to make up your own. So all you're saying is "I don't like it".


Wait, I feel like you missed my whole argument. I first said that there is no way of objective way of measuring how great/terrible each good thing/bad thing is, and that the only way to see if life is worth it is to look at the number of good and bad things that happen. And then, I said that the ratio of good and bad things in our lives is clearly not 50-50. It sounds to me like you only see my latest comment, and not the whole thing that I've been trying to build, lol.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:11 pm

Well, after some thought, I can only say that Instrumentality is something that needs to be an individual choice.

Right, most people may see life as worth it at the point of fighting tooth and nail, but 'worth' is subjective, like, I think that Nintendo is worth it, but you may not, but we can't properly say (unless if you do believe in a God...) that life has an 'inherent worth', hell, that expands to everything else, from the small rubble in the ground to the brightest star in the universe.

Now, I particularly (at least before, I am frankly rethinking my beliefs, but it is still hard, I hate my failures and I can't stand my own failures where I particularly see death as a better path than failure 'what in this sense means ending up as a poor beggar that has absolutely nothing') i think that it needs to be an individual choice above all.

So I think that I wouldn't accept Instrumentality because others wouldn't have a choice, but later on? If Rei gave me a choice to end up into that state that will not mean an coerced union of all humanity? Yes, but it would be less of fear (I don't really fear failure, I just decided it as a sort of path in my existence, if I end up as a beggar, homeless and without any hope? Well, hope life is good to you all, but goodbye!) and more of an 'eh, I already [or always] failed and I have no way out right? So yes, let's go off! Goodbye Ayanami-san! Enjoy your immortal existence as a Goddess!

...anyway it is just that.

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:15 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Epilogue, that's life.

Of course the universe doesn't give two shits about us, that's just the way the universe is. We're a small part of a much bigger picture.

But instead of dwelling on the negatives and the meaningless of our existence, how about we give ourselves meaning to our existence to make our days worth living.

And no, that's not me trivializing the suffering that goes on, I mean we have to find meaning in our own existence to find the joy in this world. Each of us has that choice.

If you choose not to, fine. Just don't tell everyone else who does find value in this world that they shouldn't.


I mean, first of all, my "shouldn't" does not mean a thing to y'all, dude. It's just a suggestion I've arrived at based on my own thoughts. You like it, you can take it. If you don't, please forget about it ASAP.

Secondly, why should we "give ourselves meaning" in a world where our effort do not yield the just rewards...? A one-to-one isn't that much to ask for, right? If the world treats us like so, then I believe that we must either kill this world or kill ourselves. Enduring injustice is not a choice in my mind.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby xanderkh » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:16 pm

^

Again, that's not an objective way of seeing life. That's a computer statistic, looking at the number of bad days vs good days in a person's life.

We're not robots nor machines, we're human, and we all place different values on the impact of good and bad days, we don't use a statistic to determine whether or not our lives are good or bad based on the number of "bad days vs good days".

Our perception of bad days can change on a whim. For example. My break-up with my last girlfriend was one of the most miserable days of my life at the time, because I thought I was unloved.

But now, as I look back on that day, I'm GLAD I broke up with her, because it saved me from a lot of problems I was ignoring, and I'm stronger for it. :)

Feelings of life change. :)
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:20 pm

And...killing yourself makes you the superior organism?

Explain the logic in that! All that proves is that an 'animal' has more common sense than a human if humanity's greatest aspiration is to 'end the suffering.' That doesn't prove you logical, it proves you weak. If you want to dismiss it from being a 'point in debates,' because our basic biology says 'don't kill yourself' in the same manner that it says 'don't lick a sea urchin,' your essentially saying 'everything that defines human existence doesn't count, except what I say.' That's childish.

As for life 'rewarding you fairly:' well, what did you expect? What do you want, a participation award? A cookie? No one says life is fair. Life gives you exactly what you ask from it. You want more? Demand more. You think it's unfair? Make it fair. You are the engine of your existence, human: define your destination. The course is yours.

I can certainly respect you for your struggles, but please forgive me for saying that I can't respect you at all for thinking at you deserve to suffer through the things you did, for the little good that you receive in return.


Who said I deserve it? You think I am suffering because I'm a penitent? That I enjoyed having my face beat in, or walking for twelve-miles wondering why the hell I was walking in a giant, goddamn circle? I hated it! I hate suffering. Nobody likes to suffer, no one deserves to suffer. Shit, I didn't deserve it. I ENDURED it. And that's the difference: you endure it to make it to the end, to the destination you chose. I didn't choose to suffer, but I chose to persevere THROUGH the suffering, and I have gained from it. The bastards don't keep me down, and I won't cut my throat like a fucking coward because it's just so damned hard: I'll sit up and spit my broken teeth back into the world, because that is the very minimum I can do, when others have done so much more. People choose to persevere THROUGH their suffering. That is human. That is strength. That is a life foundation.

This world doesn't give two shits about you, but it also isn't out to get you. The world is just the world. It sucks, and it's awesome. It is, and is not. It is simply an engine of existence, and it doesn't care about you, which means it isn't out to get you. It is as good or as bad as YOU make it. No one else, just you. That is all there is to it, and to assume that it is simply there to grind you into paste is pathological. It's paranoid, and unrealistic. If you think it's that way, shit: do something about it!

Lt Light Ark: I don't agree with your stance, but you've definitely arrived to a logical one. I can't tell you you're wrong on it, especially the logic you applied. It's well thought out.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:23 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:^

Again, that's not an objective way of seeing life. That's a computer statistic, looking at the number of bad days vs good days in a person's life.

We're not robots nor machines, we're human, and we all place different values on the impact of good and bad days, we don't use a statistic to determine whether or not our lives are good or bad based on the number of "bad days vs good days".

Our perception of bad days can change on a whim. For example. My break-up with my last girlfriend was one of the most miserable days of my life at the time, because I thought I was unloved.

But now, as I look back on that day, I'm GLAD I broke up with her, because it saved me from a lot of problems I was ignoring, and I'm stronger for it. :)

Feelings of life change. :)


You say "human" as though it is a good thing. It's really not. Being human doesn't mean "intelligent" or "highly moral" or anything of that kind; these aren't unique to us. Being human means often letting our complex emotions effect our judgement, making choices that we know are either not as profitable, or straight-up damaging. In this way, being a computer is infinitely more effective and beneficial. I mean, some other things we lose might include artistic creativity and our status as one of the only two animals that torture others for fun, but none of them are really that meaningful, are they? Like, trading in arts and crafts for always making the logical choice...I'd spring for that deal any day of the week.

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Postby xanderkh » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:31 pm

^

Again, your argument is pretty flawed in that paragraph alone.

"Being human doesn't mean "intelligent" or "highly moral" or anything of that kind; these aren't unique to us.", but then you go and say "and our status as one of the only two animals that torture others for fun". You just contradicted yourself, and trust me, we're not the only species that does that.
Dolphins themselves are probably one of the brutal species on the planet, and ducks are their own messed up thing. Not something proud to admit, but we aren't that special when it comes to "torture".

And our emotions can cripple us sometimes, but they also serve to enrich our lives. Yes, it's sucks to suffer, but I would gladly endure the suffering if it meant I could still experience joy. Because what's the point in being efficient if I can't take pride in my own work?
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:35 pm

...They ARE unique to us.

Animals are incapable of being moral: they lack the self awareness to know what is 'right' and 'wrong.' Those 'complex emotions' you denigrate are part of the many faceted minutiae and details we REQUIRE to make educated and logical decisions: the melange of experience and memory we possess, and are AWARE we possess. And we are aware enough to KNOW tormenting others is wrong, and take steps to correct it. Dolphins will still have rape caves, apes will still kill baby apes with rocks, donkeys, ducks, turtles, and hundreds of other species will still rape the shit out of each other...humans are unique in that we can point at that, say "That's fucked up!" and fix it: we don't look at rape and torment as being a normal part of existence. We fight back against those things, punishing the perpetrators of them.

Arts and crafts? Do you mean culture, language, philosophy, science, reason, the fact that we put a frigging man on the moon, built islands to suck up decomposed dinosaurs because we figured out how to use them to freaking fly? What world are you living in that's so awful?

Our Sumerian ancestors were happy to be paid in beer that was so thick, you had to drink it through a straw, and now you are complaining about how horrible life is on an information network that has the knowledge of the world there at your fingertips. What possible objective standard are you using to say the world sucks?

It is a silly and self-indulgent standard. There's no modicum of reality in it.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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-Literary Eagle

We have to remember what's important in life: friends, waffles, and work. Or waffles, friends, and work. But work has to come in third.
-Leslie Knope

Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:36 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:And...killing yourself makes you the superior organism?

Explain the logic in that! All that proves is that an 'animal' has more common sense than a human if humanity's greatest aspiration is to 'end the suffering.' That doesn't prove you logical, it proves you weak. If you want to dismiss it from being a 'point in debates,' because our basic biology says 'don't kill yourself' in the same manner that it says 'don't lick a sea urchin,' your essentially saying 'everything that defines human existence doesn't count, except what I say.' That's childish.

As for life 'rewarding you fairly:' well, what did you expect? What do you want, a participation award? A cookie? No one says life is fair. Life gives you exactly what you ask from it. You want more? Demand more. You think it's unfair? Make it fair. You are the engine of your existence, human: define your destination. The course is yours.



Who said I deserve it? You think I am suffering because I'm a penitent? That I enjoyed having my face beat in, or walking for twelve-miles wondering why the hell I was walking in a giant, goddamn circle? I hated it! I hate suffering. Nobody likes to suffer, no one deserves to suffer. Shit, I didn't deserve it. I ENDURED it. And that's the difference: you endure it to make it to the end, to the destination you chose. I didn't choose to suffer, but I chose to persevere THROUGH the suffering, and I have gained from it. The bastards don't keep me down, and I won't cut my throat like a fucking coward because it's just so damned hard: I'll sit up and spit my broken teeth back into the world, because that is the very minimum I can do, when others have done so much more. People choose to persevere THROUGH their suffering. That is human. That is strength. That is a life foundation.

This world doesn't give two shits about you, but it also isn't out to get you. The world is just the world. It sucks, and it's awesome. It is, and is not. It is simply an engine of existence, and it doesn't care about you, which means it isn't out to get you. It is as good or as bad as YOU make it. No one else, just you. That is all there is to it, and to assume that it is simply there to grind you into paste is pathological. It's paranoid, and unrealistic. If you think it's that way, shit: do something about it!

Lt Light Ark: I don't agree with your stance, but you've definitely arrived to a logical one. I can't tell you you're wrong on it, especially the logic you applied. It's well thought out.


The thing about using an animalistic instinct as an argument is that instincts are quite often illogical. Like cats jumping away from cucumbers. Or dogs barking at mailmen. These instincts might have been good ideas thousands of years ago, but most of them aren't anymore. Particularly, an absolute and unshakable desire for life, that is often quite ridiculous. To suffer excessively instead embracing the calmness of death, as too many people in third-world countries do, that genuinely feels silly in my opinion. Death is a state of not feeling either pleasure or pain, and I feel like it's pretty "common sense" to choose not feeling pain over pain...The only value in life, at the end of the day, is the potential for good. And you know what else has potential? Every single stock out there on the market. Will you wanna buy every single stock under every single circumstance, then? Living is an investment, and by nature, investments can often be not worth it.

Also, you are absolutely wrong in saying that the world is fair and not. 99.9999999999999% of the time, it ain't fair. And, like I've said before, enduring injustice isn't a term I have in my dictionary. If something makes me endure injustice, then either that thing dies, or I die. And since I most likely won't be able to start a nuclear war on my own, I have to go with ending myself.

Finally, in terms of "doing XXX because it's hard"; technological advancements, every single one of them, are made because we want things to be easier. Choosing the hard way isn't something to brag about.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:38 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:Lt Light Ark: I don't agree with your stance, but you've definitely arrived to a logical one. I can't tell you you're wrong on it, especially the logic you applied. It's well thought out.


You readed my first post in this topic? I mean, I can't too look to someone and say 'kill yourself', particularly it is not in my being to do that, but in a individual level (as myself alone) I ended up arriving in this, I did fear that my logic would be faulty, but then it seems like I wasn't.

Anyway I 'do' agree with your statements, but then as I said, worth is subjective (why 'choice' is the magical word) for me life is worthy if you can get something good out of it (as in, managing to get a good life, not end up in misery and etc), particularly I remember a saying that is 'In reality, hope is the worst of all evils, because it prolongs man's torments.'

It is meaningful for me, and it is even more surprising because of the person that said it, Friedrich Nietzsche, arguably the greatest anti-nihilist that ever walked in earth (maybe before Christ) but then, you have this.

So yeah.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:42 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:^

Again, your argument is pretty flawed in that paragraph alone.

"Being human doesn't mean "intelligent" or "highly moral" or anything of that kind; these aren't unique to us.", but then you go and say "and our status as one of the only two animals that torture others for fun". You just contradicted yourself, and trust me, we're not the only species that does that.
Dolphins themselves are probably one of the brutal species on the planet, and ducks are their own messed up thing. Not something proud to admit, but we aren't that special when it comes to "torture".

And our emotions can cripple us sometimes, but they also serve to enrich our lives. Yes, it's sucks to suffer, but I would gladly endure the suffering if it meant I could still experience joy. Because what's the point in being efficient if I can't take pride in my own work?


Tbh, the part about torturing stuff is more of a cat joke than a serious argument. I guess I should have specified that A. most dogs are more moral than us by our own standards of morality(with their loyalty alone)", and B. that our "intelligence" will be left soooo far in the dust once technological singularity hits. All of our uniqueness comes down to having a bigger brain, and again, that brain can easily be replaced once A.I really kicks into gear.

Also, maybe it's just that it's been so long since I last experienced any form of joy that isn't the adrenaline rush of buying a shiny new knife or dropping a good item in video games, but I don't see the joy we feel as a good enough compensation for the trouble our emotions cause us. Again, if the tradeoff ain't one to one, I'm not impressed.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:53 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:...They ARE unique to us.

Animals are incapable of being moral: they lack the self awareness to know what is 'right' and 'wrong.' Those 'complex emotions' you denigrate are part of the many faceted minutiae and details we REQUIRE to make educated and logical decisions: the melange of experience and memory we possess, and are AWARE we possess. And we are aware enough to KNOW tormenting others is wrong, and take steps to correct it. Dolphins will still have rape caves, apes will still kill baby apes with rocks, donkeys, ducks, turtles, and hundreds of other species will still rape the shit out of each other...humans are unique in that we can point at that, say "That's fucked up!" and fix it: we don't look at rape and torment as being a normal part of existence. We fight back against those things, punishing the perpetrators of them.

Arts and crafts? Do you mean culture, language, philosophy, science, reason, the fact that we put a frigging man on the moon, built islands to suck up decomposed dinosaurs because we figured out how to use them to freaking fly? What world are you living in that's so awful?

Our Sumerian ancestors were happy to be paid in beer that was so thick, you had to drink it through a straw, and now you are complaining about how horrible life is on an information network that has the knowledge of the world there at your fingertips. What possible objective standard are you using to say the world sucks?

It is a silly and self-indulgent standard. There's no modicum of reality in it.


lol, I'd just like tot take a moment to say that I had morality and intelligence in quotes because both of them are ridiculous concepts. As I've mentioned before, our intelligence won't be worth shit once technological singularity happens, and morality is also a standard we made up to justify our actions, because our pathetic "feelings" demand that we waste precious resources in alleviating guilt. In true nature and among social animals, there are only prosocial behaviors and antisocial behaviors. Prosocial behaviors are generally seen as "nice", because they're meant to appease the society an individual organism lives in, so they can survive another day, and maybe get rewarded with resources somewhere down the line. Raping also isn't an antisocial behavior until humans came along with these precious feelings, because as far as mother nature is concerned, if you're strong enough to impregnate a female, your DNA passes the test of being strong enough to be passed down. So, please, debunk my ideas all you like, just please refrain from praising humanity anymore. I love a logical discussion, but using "human" as a word of praise hurts my eyes.

As a side note, I meant arts and craft as in novels and pottery. Our scientific achievements fall under the category of our supposed intelligence, which, again, is gonna get absolutely shit on once true A.I. comes out.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:04 pm

Lt Light Ark: My disagreement is in abandoning the 'self,' but that's me. I like being me, and abandoning me is a concept that I find alien and abhorrent. I can see how it might appeal to others, though, and I think defended your stance eloquently.

Epilogue: YOU...ARE TYPING...WORDS. Things that exist because of intelligence. Forming concepts, ideas, and arguments, because of 'pesky intelligence.'

If 'intelligence' was a ridiculous concept that didn't exist, than how you are exercising the language and writing skills necessary to argue this...whatever it is you believe. It's not a philosophy, because I don't see any organization to it beyond whining self-indulgence. I mean, shit, kid: you're on an anime site. If you thought 'novels and pottery' were such meaningless contributions to human development, then what the hell are you here for?

Oh, and let's switch over to instincts now, because apparently those are bad, too. Instincts exist...because they are pre-programmed biological responses to institute reactions our basic 'logical' brains can't handle. Things like, 'pain hurts.' 'Sex feels good.' 'Food is tasty.' 'Sleep is nice.' Things that keep you from collapsing into a twitching pile of function-less tissue that can't defend itself from stray cats that would come and eat it.

Having instincts makes you an organism. And the basic instinct of 'don't do stupid shit that will make you dead, because that's fucking stupid!' is a basic instinctive drive. And human beings are organisms. Congratulations, welcome to the world. Suck it up, buttercup.

Those 'instincts' that you deride are the same things that tell you don't touch fire, don't lick knives, and don't punch bears. I am befuddled as to how you would look at that and say, "Wow, that's stupid. I should CHOOSE to chew on glass if I feel like it, because I'm a human!" You sound like the kind of person whose life is terrible because you CHOSE to make it terrible. In which case, you can't blame the world: you can only blame yourself. I mean, you'd have to, if you look at the construction of an airplane and say, "Oh, we did that because it was EASY." How many died in the pioneering of aviation? How long and hard do you think the road was in engineering, mathematics, and lives lost, to get from falling off a cliff and not dying, to shooting a man millions of miles through vacuum, to hit an object moving at millions of miles per second, land him there, then bring him back to earth alive? That's 'easy?' We did that because it was 'easy?' You have the most...surreal sense of reality I have read in a long time.

Apparently, being intelligent is bad. Having instincts is bad. Everything about everything is bad. So, yeah, I am going to debunk your ideas. Humanity is amazing. It is complex, it is roiling, it is alive, it is capable of great accomplishment, and great atrocity, but it endures and evolves. That is humanity, and it is amazing. Anyone who is incapable of seeing that is just broken. They are flawed. That is not an opinion, that is a fact. There is piece missing in that person that is fundamental to existence.

As for not respecting someone choosing to do something the hard way, well: if it nets an amazing gain, is absa-fucking-lutely something worth bragging about. It is the achievement of both effort and reward, and the person who denigrates that is a person who hasn't achieved anything, and is frankly too lazy and self-indulgent to try. You don't build a computer because it's easy. You don't engineer the Internet because it's easy. The result may make life easier and convenient, but the road to that reward is...HARD. It is difficult. Years of effort, and research, and loss, and gain, was required for every little thing you have that further separates your life from squatting in the bushes and fighting off insects.

I mean, for a guy that talks about how it's preferable to end life than to keep enduring the ragged and unjust torment of the world, because, boo fucking hoo, it's so goddamned HARD to live, you seem a lot more interested in convincing OTHER people to kill themselves. Which means that you yourself know that your own stance is an inherently hypocritical and flawed stance. That, or you're just trolling, and you actually don't believe a word you're saying, and you're just going for what you think is the most shocking thing to say, than the most 'true' or 'real.' I feel inclined to think it's that, because what you are touting sounds very much like a teenager's idea of edgy nihilism. Shit, even nihilism is more realistic than what you are arguing. There is NOTHING logical about what you've said. There is no rhyme or reason to your arguments beyond, "Being intelligent sucks. Having instincts suck. The world sucks. Technology sucks. I'm right, you're wrong, let's all kill ourselves." I'm sorry to say it, but that's not logic. That's complaining.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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