How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:06 pm

I would likely do what Shinji did, let it happen, let everyone understand each other and gain perfect empathy for about an hour, and then end it. That way, we can live separately and have our own lives while still retaining our understanding of others. I believe that the final scene of End of is the best possible outcome of what lead up to the form Instrumentality took in that timeline.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:11 pm

View Original PostEl Squibbonator wrote:It seems to me like we've already had one. We call it social media.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Rei IV » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:03 pm

It's a bundle of DO NOT WANT. I like to keep my personal thoughts and feelings to myself, thank you very much.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby fukuda » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:52 pm

View Original PostEl Squibbonator wrote:It seems to me like we've already had one. We call it social media.


The question is that has it distanced people in individual thought or has it united people in hivemind collective?
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:24 pm

View Original Postfukuda wrote:The question is that has it distanced people in individual thought or has it united people in hivemind collective?

Yes
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:38 pm

If I had an Asuka who clearly hates Instrumentality, then no, I won't support Instrumentality. Otherwise, though, why the fuck not? What the fuck is the point of living in the real world? To realize that a guy yelling about grabbing women by the pussy promises(and of course, by nature of him being a politician Trump can't do anything more than make empty promises)the best political agenda?
To watch your parents grow old and die?
To watch time turn your best friends against you?
To suddenly realize that the fourth grade teacher you've been wanting to catch up with had died from cancer already?
To fucking watch your mom and dad yell at each other and be forced to choose between the two people who loved you the most?

Like, what the actual fuck is there to love about this world? I don't fucking get it? I'm Chinese, and we have a proverb that says "eight or nine out of the ten things in life won't go your way". Mathematically speaking, life isn't worth living. And if you say shit like "hur dur dur just make the best out of the one or two good things" then you're the same kind of person who tells a rape victim to "just enjoy the sex". Someone give me a good counterpoint to this, please.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:50 am

View Original PostEpilogue wrote:Mathematically speaking, life isn't worth living.

First you need to define what "worth living" means for you (maths aside). After all, you think it fails that test, so there must be some reason you think that, right? Once you've worked that out, then you can look into how to make things go that way.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:06 am

View Original PostEpilogue wrote:If I had an Asuka who clearly hates Instrumentality, then no, I won't support Instrumentality. Otherwise, though, why the fuck not? What the fuck is the point of living in the real world? To realize that a guy yelling about grabbing women by the pussy promises(and of course, by nature of him being a politician Trump can't do anything more than make empty promises)the best political agenda?
To watch your parents grow old and die?
To watch time turn your best friends against you?
To suddenly realize that the fourth grade teacher you've been wanting to catch up with had died from cancer already?
To fucking watch your mom and dad yell at each other and be forced to choose between the two people who loved you the most?

Like, what the actual fuck is there to love about this world? I don't fucking get it? I'm Chinese, and we have a proverb that says "eight or nine out of the ten things in life won't go your way". Mathematically speaking, life isn't worth living. And if you say shit like "hur dur dur just make the best out of the one or two good things" then you're the same kind of person who tells a rape victim to "just enjoy the sex". Someone give me a good counterpoint to this, please.


I've thought too much about it, I particularly couldn't find any good counterpoint too.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:50 am

Under no conditions. At all.

I'm me, and I intend to stay me. All of me, good, bad, and worst. From the days I feel the best about myself to the days I can barely stand my existence, I am me, and will stay me. Any sort of plan to assimilate humanity into a single whole is a threat to that, and I see nothing beneficial or worthy in it.

You want counterpoints?

You can watch your parents grow old and die, or you can experience life with them, love them, live with them, and then impart their lessons to your kids. Or not: if your parents are raging assholes, then you know what a parent shouldn't be, and you can do better.

You lose friends? You gain new ones. If your friends 'turn against you,' then they aren't your friends, or you've learned the valuable lesson about what it means when you meet one asshole versus meeting assholes all day (one of those two is a bitter but necessary pill to swallow).

Your teacher passed away? Honor their memory by not dwelling on their death, and shutting down in mid-stride. Mourn them, remember them, but don't use it as a crutch or excuse for why life is not worth living.

Your parents? Politics? Sometimes things just suck. That is fact. There is no counterpoint to that. It's like watching my athletic, loving, kind, and amazing uncle degenerate and die over years from multiple brain tumors. There was no good reason for that. There's no way to take that and say, "There's a silver lining here." Sometimes, there just isn't. But the fact that, up until the day he died, he still smiled, enjoyed corny jokes, spending time with my dad, my aunts, and his sweet wife, and placing others before him even as his world was collapsing around him, tells me that I have no excuse when I get up, look in the mirror, and think, "This is too damned hard." Life is hard, but it's endurable. It can be endured, and it can be sustained.

That statement you made, about telling a rape victim "just enjoy the sex." Your assessment is the equivalent of telling a rape victim, "You're ruined now: kill yourself." Who in their right mind would do something so cruel and, frankly, insane? You don't tell someone who suffered such an attack either of those things: you repair them. You sustain them, you hold them up and support them, you fight for justice for them, and you do these things because they, as humans...individual humans...have value, and that value is worth fighting tooth and nail for.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:19 am

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:Under no conditions. At all.

I'm me, and I intend to stay me. All of me, good, bad, and worst. From the days I feel the best about myself to the days I can barely stand my existence, I am me, and will stay me.


Admirable, why I do believe that if such a thing as Instrumentality comes to exist in RL, it should something consensual, clearly it is not everyone that will accept it, so it needs to be a optional, not enforced.

Any sort of plan to assimilate humanity into a single whole is a threat to that, and I see nothing beneficial or worthy in it.


That depends, half of humanity may think that is a good thing for then, so will you oppose and oblige then to go with what you want? Is that even different than enforcing Instrumentality over everyone else?

You want counterpoints?

You can watch your parents grow old and die, or you can experience life with them, love them, live with them, and then impart their lessons to your kids. Or not: if your parents are raging assholes, then you know what a parent shouldn't be, and you can do better.


Knowing doesn't mean that you will do a better job.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/5605 ... -children/
https://americanspcc.org/effects-bad-parenting-child/
https://americanspcc.org/effects-bad-parenting-child/
http://kids.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Effects ... n_Children

Even the brain of a neglected kid victim of bad parenting works differently.

http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news/Pa ... Them.shtml

And it does pass ahead.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-hea ... dy-n566036

You lose friends? You gain new ones. If your friends 'turn against you,' then they aren't your friends, or you've learned the valuable lesson about what it means when you meet one asshole versus meeting assholes all day (one of those two is a bitter but necessary pill to swallow).


I remember that I had a friend that soon after turned against me, when I did got new friends (both doesn't have the brightest view of the world...) and said to then they did just claimed that it is normal, most people are assholes (Interesting...for your point against Instrumentality one can argue that it is dumb because why would you join with those assholes? Better that they dissapear, but the version that I am working in this topic is one where people get to choose, because otherwise you would be morally wrong to choose it, as people wouldn't have a choice in it)

Now, you have a point (because they are not assholes or betrayers) but they often say that a true friendship is literally impossible to find, like, I am not the most normal person in the world, why? I have an ardent hatred towards betrayal, like, I really hate betrayal, it is not something that I would forgive, so I do know and I would not be an ass.

But the other side is, maybe those people are assholes because they decided to be after too much betrayal, human society works by competition and sometimes (sadly enough) people have to choose between stepping over people to go upwards or to not do it and lose.

And most people do choose to step over others, even friends, so, right, you can learn something from it, but as we can see in the world where you need to take care with people because you don't know if they are really trustable that they had the lesson but...

They didn't learned anything or they did learned and...took the opposite side.

Your teacher passed away? Honor their memory by not dwelling on their death, and shutting down in mid-stride. Mourn them, remember them, but don't use it as a crutch or excuse for why life is not worth living.


Point.

Your parents? Politics? Sometimes things just suck. That is fact. There is no counterpoint to that. It's like watching my athletic, loving, kind, and amazing uncle degenerate and die over years from multiple brain tumors. There was no good reason for that. There's no way to take that and say, "There's a silver lining here." Sometimes, there just isn't. But the fact that, up until the day he died, he still smiled, enjoyed corny jokes, spending time with my dad, my aunts, and his sweet wife, and placing others before him even as his world was collapsing around him, tells me that I have no excuse when I get up, look in the mirror, and think, "This is too damned hard." Life is hard, but it's endurable. It can be endured, and it can be sustained.


Suffering just happens, it is just nature itself, but...frankly? I get that you are a strong person what comes to my next point.

That statement you made, about telling a rape victim "just enjoy the sex." Your assessment is the equivalent of telling a rape victim, "You're ruined now: kill yourself." Who in their right mind would do something so cruel and, frankly, insane? You don't tell someone who suffered such an attack either of those things: you repair them. You sustain them, you hold them up and support them, you fight for justice for them, and you do these things because they, as humans...individual humans...have value, and that value is worth fighting tooth and nail for.


No...the assertment "You're ruined now, kill yourself" doesn't really work because Life is hard, you did admitted it, look, some people just can't deal with it, it is a part of an individual existence, some people are weak, other are strong, it is normal.

But now the assertment doesn't work because I want you to imagine someone that lived as a sex slave, they will get raped everyday and you can just watch from afar, you can't save them, they do say that they will kill themselves because they can't stand the pain anymore and you try to give support to them, you do, but then they will argue.

"I don't want this pain anymore, I just don't want it, you can talk that all the day, but nothing will change."

Can you really give to then a reason? They will never escape it, that is their existence, you could do something? Maybe? Yes, but then you fail and die, then what that person will learn? That really there's no exit, that they were right.

Can you logically argue that they should reject Instrumentality even if their days until death will be only suffering? You are strong, you can shrug it as if that was nothing, but some simply can't, people are different, yes, Instrumentality is an exit, but if that does manage to stop one person's suffering, I don't see why they should be detained of accepting it (except if that means that everyone else should go, then no one has a choice and that is just wrong)

Now, sorry if this answer does offend you, I don't have the intention to offend anyone.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:10 pm

You've made quite the long response, and I think I owe it to you to respond in kind: it was well thought out, and well-crafted. Let's take it piece by piece, Lt Light Ark.

-The implications of Instrumentality is that it is an all or nothing thing: there is no choice. ALL of humanity is assimilated, or NONE of it is. If we're talking some sort of self-contained network of souls that can be sequestered off Matrix-style, then sure: plug in all you want. If you want to lose your sense of individuality to a cacophonous sea of voices, and you're not forcing anyone to do that with you, go ahead. Instrumentality, however, is a human-wide, enforced extinction/evolutionary event. What Shinji does is essentially break Instrumentality: he negates it and ends it, as he allows an 'out' for everyone swept up in it. I am opposed to something that pulls me, against my will, into things I don't agree with. Especially if it requires erasure of the Self.

-These are all valid points regarding the toxic effects of bad parenting, but the nature of humanity means that there is always the ability and possibility to transcend what was placed in front of us. Simply being aware is many times what is needed for someone to overcome a cycle. It is true, the odds of that are low, but the odds are still there. If anything, it says that the rest of us, as responsible humans, should come together as a community of individuals, to assist and help those who are still suffering from the effects of toxic upbringings. We have that ability, and those resources: there's nothing saying we can't come together to save the least or most injured among us, and some societies do just that.

-I'll go ahead and say the parable of the asshole versus the assholes, which is one my favorite quotes from Justified: if you go through your day, and you meet an asshole, then you've met an asshole. If you go through your day, and you're meeting assholes all day long, YOU'RE the asshole.

Not...you, Lt, the general 'you.'

The point being that most people aren't assholes, but if you as an individual make it difficult for people to connect to you (by being an asshole), you might think this. The point being that human beings, even isolated ones (and I should know, being an introvert) are keyed to form relationships. We have to: isolation has measurable and sometime tremendously debilitating health effects on people. Even here, on this forum, is a demonstration of the human need for social interaction. You are finding a place where you can have a healthy outlet for social connectivity you might not be able to develop in the real world.

This demonstrates people NEED connections, and they are unwilling to do things that damage them. Take disasters: if people really behaved in the manner you suggest as natural state of affairs, we wouldn't have White Helmets risking their lives to save people in Syria, with no pay and all the risk it entails. You wouldn't see people come together in times of disaster to help each other, at personal risk to themselves. We had a guy in our unit who basically sabotaged his military career, because he went AWOL...to drive his boat down to Houston and rescue people. For no pay.

Think about that: people are complicated. They do shitty things, but they do AMAZING things without prompting, either.

-Taking your assessment of sex slavery, I know probably a bit more about that than you think. I also know that many of the women (and boys) who become sex slaves, when saved from that, provided safety and assistance in healing, become very well-rounded individuals. Their lives aren't all kisses and sunshine after that, but they are healthy, and they are good. And many of those people are the ones we need the most, because they are the ones that go on to assist OTHER victims in moving past their pain, or helping authorities locate and save other sex slaves.

But the key to that is COMMUNITY: the knowledge that there is someone there to help you, maybe someone that knows what you've been through, experienced, suffered, what you need to heal.

I am, to an extent, strong, and that's not a brag: I've worked hard to gain physical strength, mental strength, and skills and knowledge, because my professions require all of those things (I am in fairly force oriented professions: if you don't maintain a minimum level of strength in these areas, you are saying, "I'm the weak target, kill me dead"). But, more than anything else, I'm strong because OTHER PEOPLE HAVE MADE ME STRONG. I am physically strong because others have shown me how to do it, and helped me get there. I am mentally strong because others have taught me how to be. Hell, I finished my twelve-mile ruck because I asked my Commander to pace me the last three miles. It was my walk...but I don't think I could have made it without him walking next to me and just...talking. He talked about the other Lieutenants, he talked about his wife, he just shot the breeze, and that helped a lot (I have not rucked in a while, and so I had done the stupid thing of using all of my energy on the first three miles: he was what helped me measure and pace my energy for the last run).

You don't HAVE to be strong, and that's the thing: you are as strong as you ask others to help you be. I can draw and shoot a handgun accurately with three shots in under...half a second, give or take. I worked hard to do that: but I also had (I shit you not) five different people teach me how to do that, over the course of a year, and all of them are much faster than I am. They taught me that, and I asked them for that help.

And with all of that, there are things I can't shrug off. I just accomplished a difficult task, and I spent this morning dwelling on every mistake I made in getting that task accomplished, and thinking of how pathetic I am for making silly mistakes. I was depressed this morning, for doing something that a very small percentage of people accomplish. And I did it in one go, when most have to try three to five times! And that was because everyone who offered me help in this...I took it. I asked them every question, listened to them, and thanked them all for it. I don't feel like I earned something: I feel like a group of great people pushed me across the finish line.

Again, not to brag, but to let you know: strength is not an individual standing against the world alone and shrugging off all the blows that come. Strength is an individual, as an individual, drawing on the help of others to stand up. And it is a process to find those individuals. I'm nearly thirty-five (I turned thirty-four today). That's how long it took me to find those people, and it's a constant search. Living is a search, a process, and ordeal, but it is one worth undertaking. It is always worth undertaking.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:27 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:First you need to define what "worth living" means for you (maths aside). After all, you think it fails that test, so there must be some reason you think that, right? Once you've worked that out, then you can look into how to make things go that way.

Remember the Chinese proverb that I mentioned...? How, on average, 8~9 out of 10 things in your life won't go your way? That's what "not worth living" is, not just for me, but for everybody. When we're all destined to numerically have more painful experiences than joyful once, how can life be worth living? By pretending that one good thing can even out the shittiness of 9 other horrible things...? That honestly just doesn't seem right, lol. It seems downright delusional.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:42 pm

^
With all due respect, that ancient Chinese proverb is a crock of shit.

I mean, the ratio is already off, because I can objectively say that, as miserable as I am at times, my life is pretty damned good in the grand scheme of things. The majority of human beings can objectively look at their lives and say, "There is more that makes me happy than not." If you can make it through the day with a paycheck, at least two meals, and a little time to play on the Internet or read a book, that's a great day.

Besides, what's the scale? What if you have nine crummy little things happen, but one amazing thing happen? Like, I had to deal with a week of frustrating stuff, long hours, short sleep nights, and physical pain, and I've got something very few people get to have. That's a lot of crap for something beyond worth it.

If I have to deal with nine shitty things to hold up a solid gold nugget of brilliance, that's a good day.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:13 pm

View Original PostEpilogue wrote:That's what "not worth living" is, not just for me, but for everybody.

Speaking as a representative of "everybody" I can simply say you're wrong in that. In any case, instead of actually responding to the (possibly difficult) question I posed, you just hid behind a proverb of dubious usefulness.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:20 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:^
With all due respect, that ancient Chinese proverb is a crock of shit.

I mean, the ratio is already off, because I can objectively say that, as miserable as I am at times, my life is pretty damned good in the grand scheme of things. The majority of human beings can objectively look at their lives and say, "There is more that makes me happy than not." If you can make it through the day with a paycheck, at least two meals, and a little time to play on the Internet or read a book, that's a great day.

Besides, what's the scale? What if you have nine crummy little things happen, but one amazing thing happen? Like, I had to deal with a week of frustrating stuff, long hours, short sleep nights, and physical pain, and I've got something very few people get to have. That's a lot of crap for something beyond worth it.

If I have to deal with nine shitty things to hold up a solid gold nugget of brilliance, that's a good day.


...you say that life is "objectively" good for most people(including yourself), but you don't give even an estimate of how many bad things happen in your daily life for the singular "something very people get to have". So, what you're actually saying is that the sum of the results of your daily work outweighs the sum of the struggles. That is by definition a subjective statement, because I can say that I'm happy with making minimum wage, or I can also say that I am unhappy with an occupation that makes me a billionaire. Both are quite common things to hear, are they not? The problem here is that the concept of pain is subjective in and of itself, as different person tend to form different interpretations for a single event. For some people, socializing is worth the inevitable betrayals and heartbreaks, and for others like me, it is not, so I mostly only keep to myself and only speak to the people around me when I need something from them, or them from me.
Point is, at the end of the day, you can only get an average for how many things went your way and how many things did not. The range of how much each thing hurt each person would be so wide that its average would be worthless.

Meanwhile, to respond to your first reply, all you've said can be summarized as something along the lines of the bad things in life being bearable, which is once again a subjective statement. You say that the anguish we are all doomed to experience are still worth the values that we each produce, but someone else might also say that physical torture leads to sexual pleasure, and both are valid as opinions, but nothing more. Furthermore, you've admitted that the world does punish us for forming bonds with those around us, but there is no reason given as to why we must all be punished. The punishment also can't be for the few good things that we're allowed to have in life, because it all goes back to the subjectivity thing. You can think that 50 dollars for a single apple is worth it, but objectively, 50 dollars for an apple in our current economy is an absolute ripoff.

Finally, what I'm saying should not be translated as telling rape victims to kill themselves. I'm telling everybody to kill themselves, because chances are, rape won't even be the worst bad thing to happen to each of us, or the last.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:23 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Speaking as a representative of "everybody" I can simply say you're wrong in that. In any case, instead of actually responding to the (possibly difficult) question I posed, you just hid behind a proverb of dubious usefulness.


I say “everybody" because I'm not trying to come up with an individualized standard of whether life is worth living. Read the response I made to the other guy, and you should have a better idea.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:25 pm

View Original PostEpilogue wrote:I'm telling everybody to kill themselves,

And you have no right to say that. You may feel unable to share the joy that others feel in life; but it is hugely arrogant to deny their statements that they do feel differently from you.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Epilogue » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:31 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:[quote="Epilogue#872926"}I'm telling everybody to kill themselves,

And you have no right to say that. You may feel unable to share the joy that others feel in life; but it is hugely arrogant to deny their statements that they do feel differently from you.[/quote]

Well, to be fair, it is nothing more than the suggestion. I'm not saying that others can't want to live, I'm just saying that it's rather illogical. I think I have the right to say things like "bro, XXX is not a good idea", right?

PS: fuuuuu I messed up the quote thing, haaaalp.
Last edited by Epilogue on Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:33 pm

View Original PostEpilogue wrote:Well, to be fair, it is nothing more than the suggestion. I'm not saying that others can't want to live, I'm just saying that it's rather illogical.

Your words were different; it helps if you say what you mean. We can only respond to what you actually write.
Last edited by pwhodges on Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: "It was yourself you ran away from" - episode 16. (details); Past avatars.
Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby xanderkh » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:33 pm

View Original PostEpilogue wrote:Finally, what I'm saying should not be translated as telling rape victims to kill themselves. I'm telling everybody to kill themselves, because chances are, rape won't even be the worst bad thing to happen to each of us, or the last.


Okay...wow. Just....wow. I've encountered my far share of nihilists on this site alone, but this is the first time I've seen someone write this level of hopelessness. Congratulations.

And seriously, is your argument based on the face that bad things happen to people that there's no point in living if shit happens in this world? Epilogue, that's how this system works. Good and evil, happiness and sadness, pain and pleasure. We need both to have the other to exist. Yes, there are times that life sucks and shoots a crapshoot at us, but that only means to give us reason to treasure the joyful moments that come.

Because if everything in our lives were as we wanted it, what would be the point in getting out of bed? Conflict is necessary for growth as an individual.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera


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