How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Sachi » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:56 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:But the instrumentality is like that. From your perspective, it is like the people you know is filling your gaps. Obviously the people you don't know can't complement you, so...

Why not? What if one's circle of peers is so limited that their gaps cannot be sufficiently covered by the few people they know? This seems like an unnecessary convolution, when it's simpler to assume everybody complements each other, stranger or no. A conglomerate super organism comprised off all the souls of mankind, yet unable to connect completely due to people not knowing each other seems very flawed. Further, the point of the conglomerate is to dilute the individual into nonexistence in favor of the super organism; the individual ceases to be.

And you're forgetting the most important part of my Instrumentality: only the worthy may transcend (nO GRiLs AlowED). With a limited group of people combining into one, the group itself maintains a semblance of identity and direction, especially if these are like minded people. Imagine the fantasies I could have with other crazies like me. :D
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby The Flying Fortress » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:55 pm

In a way, we're all united, are not we? Our tastes, joys, sorrows, frustrations, etc., being shared all the time, even if nobody wanted to, we would always be united, deep down you just have to learn to adapt the changes or die because you are NOT in charge of things , The Instrumentality is cool as an illusion, but it's just a dream, I can not take it seriously, our evolutionary process is a natural work, I also do not settle for turning into an orange soup, I like to be This beautiful specimen of reflective prism.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby CommanderFish » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 am

Answer to the OP: No, I would not support Instrumentality for all of mankind, because I believe everyone has the right to decide whether or not they want to become part of a gestalt super-organism with no sense of being. Personally, I would not.

Sachi wrote:And you're forgetting the most important part of my Instrumentality: only the worthy may transcend (nO GRiLs AlowED). With a limited group of people combining into one, the group itself maintains a semblance of identity and direction, especially if these are like minded people. Imagine the fantasies I could have with other crazies like me. :D

Jokes aside, I would argue that no group of people combining into one, no matter how alike they are, would be able to maintain an identity of any sort. To truly be one with a person you have to fundamentally be that person. And since all living beings differentiate from each other in some way (the miracle of life, as I believe Doctor M. would say); as small or as large as the difference may be it still prevents the whole of any being from becoming absolutely the whole of any other being. Thus--and I think this is how it is portrayed in EoE--the only way it would work would be if every person involved completely lost their sense of individual being/identity altogether, becoming functionally dead.

Of course, whether or not that last part is the case is really the crux of the whole debate around Instrumentality in the first place, isn't it?
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Sachi » Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:21 am

The individuals in the small group wouldn't maintain identity, but the general consensus between a group of like minded people would stand a better chance of surviving than it would with billions of unorganized individuals. Say the group agrees on one particular vision of things: once complemented through Instrumentality, their vision would unite as one. The super organism would essentially be the biological equivalent of a political focus group, or really any group of people that come together under a common cause; the cause itself takes a life of its own.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:58 am

View Original PostThe Cruel wrote:You can have this "fun". I appreciate who and what I have in my life.


You are running away from new sensations. You mustn't run away. You mustn't run away.

The Flying Fortress wrote:our evolutionary process is a natural work, I also do not settle for turning into an orange soup, I like to be This beautiful specimen of reflective prism.


We're not just natural beings. As Gendo says, humanity has science to evolve. We in a certain way have stopped evolution by the time we settled ourselves as social beings. With that being said, that doesn't mean Instrumentality is the right step to keep evolving, but Gendo is right in that one.

Sachi wrote:Why not? What if one's circle of peers is so limited that their gaps cannot be sufficiently covered by the few people they know? This seems like an unnecessary convolution, when it's simpler to assume everybody complements each other, stranger or no


Well, you're right. From a "substantial" POV, everybody complements everybody. But I am referring to a existentialist POV. The void that separates yourself from others is avoided in Instrumentality. Your ideas, your ideology, your mood or your hobbies are conformed by the people you know throughout your entire life. But as you remain as a human being you're separated from them in a certain way, and that's where social anxiety comes from. So, a person you don't know or doesn't have to do with you doesn't enter that frame. Of course, this is not entirely true, because strangers also imprint some psychic "symptom" in you (in psicoanalitic terms), but you know, the "closest" sensation you would feel from Instrumentality would be the complementing of you with your peers.

xanderkh wrote:^Exactly! If you could have EVERYTHING you wanted with the blink of an eye....would you even bother getting up in the morning?


Instrumentality is not about fulfilling your dreams. It's nothing like that. It's more like a relief, to put it simply.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby CommanderFish » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:58 am

Sachi wrote:The individuals in the small group wouldn't maintain identity, but the general consensus between a group of like minded people would stand a better chance of surviving than it would with billions of unorganized individuals.

I don't think that even two like-minded people would be able to maintain an identity as one combined organism. Unless their identities are exactly 100% the same, they will all have to totally forfeit their individual identities in subordination to a singular identity that holds true for all of them. But there is no compromise to this process; there must be no discernible difference between yourself and the Other, otherwise you cannot be one with it. Personally, I don't see how this couldn't lead to everyone lacking identities individually, and I certainly don't see how a combined mass of identity-less individuals could add up to anything more than than the sum of its parts (zero).

In other words, my thinking is this: to become part of Instrumentality with any number of other people, you must first become nothing; and nothing + nothing = nothing. What am I missing on this?

TheCarkolum wrote:You are running away from new sensations. You mustn't run away. You mustn't run away.

Instrumentality in EoE is a big metaphor for escapism, though. And I'd always thought the line "You mustn't run away" was Shinji's vehement anti-escapist conscience speaking. So I'm not quite seeing how this applies here. I would imagine you have another view on the matter?
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Sachi » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:55 pm

View Original PostCommanderFish wrote:I don't think that even two like-minded people would be able to maintain an identity as one combined organism. Unless their identities are exactly 100% the same, they will all have to totally forfeit their individual identities in subordination to a singular identity that holds true for all of them. But there is no compromise to this process; there must be no discernible difference between yourself and the Other, otherwise you cannot be one with it. Personally, I don't see how this couldn't lead to everyone lacking identities individually, and I certainly don't see how a combined mass of identity-less individuals could add up to anything more than than the sum of its parts (zero).

In other words, my thinking is this: to become part of Instrumentality with any number of other people, you must first become nothing; and nothing + nothing = nothing. What am I missing on this?

You're correct in that the individuals forfeit their personal identities; that much I'm okay with. The super organism would take on an identity of its own using the souls of those involved.

However, becoming nothing is not a first necessary step to the process; it's more aptly described as the outcome to the process. Nothingness results from a dilution of countless individuals. When there's billions of people involved, their individual contribution to the super organism is relatively meaningless, whereas with a group of twelve people, one's contribution would count for 1/12th of the total.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby CommanderFish » Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:46 pm

Sachi wrote:However, becoming nothing is not a first necessary step to the process; it's more aptly described as the outcome to the process. Nothingness results from a dilution of countless individuals. When there's billions of people involved, their individual contribution to the super organism is relatively meaningless, whereas with a group of twelve people, one's contribution would count for 1/12th of the total.

Well, that's not the way I've ever seen it, but I do get where you're coming from. And besides, it's not like we have a super-detailed explanation of how Instrumentality works straight from Anno's mouth to go by; all we have is one, very interpretive film wherein the process in question is not even the central focus. So it makes sense that from the get-go people are going to have very different ideas about what Instrumentality really is.
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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby The Flying Fortress » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:25 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:We're not just natural beings. As Gendo says, humanity has science to evolve. We in a certain way have stopped evolution by the time we settled ourselves as social beings. With that being said, that doesn't mean Instrumentality is the right step to keep evolving, but Gendo is right in that one.


Perhaps I have mistakenly expressed myself, I think that evolution has as many paths as the stars in the Universe, it is something beyond our perception of what it is to evolve, I think when we talk about the natural effects , because it does not include humans? That is, we are not above the process, we are part of it, connecting people is not a natural step for the survival of the specie?

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby Tumbling Down » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:26 pm

I would definitely choose Instrumentality for myself, but for others? Nah. I'm not fit to make that decision. No one man should make a decision that impacts all of humanity.

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Re: How many people in this forum would support an Instrumentality for mankind?

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Postby The Flying Fortress » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:32 pm

View Original PostTumbling Down wrote: No one man should make a decision that impacts all of humanity.

People have interfered in the destiny of other people since always, and this will always be so, in this anime people's feelings are taken into account, when they have power they can give themselves the privilege of filling their internal voids, but it does not mean that it is something Really needed.


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