Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Kendrix » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:08 pm

^A lot of these are just kinda joke answers (The gendo bit obviously XD She does spent mst of the series following him like a cult leader), & not answering obvious flamebait questions nor taking them as seriously as us fanbois & fangirls.
All Ishida says is "I don' wanna say anything the director may not agree with"

Wanting someone's attention does not romantic interest make - quite the opposite, it provides a viable alternate explanation.
Of course both could coexist but the interpretation that she doesn't even like him is neither unlikely not outlandish not forced. It's not the only vaid possibility but as a possibility its not reachin at all, especially not considering her relentless mocking treatment.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:11 am

C.T.1290 wrote: I've come the Tumblr post about the interview where Miyamura replied with a "no" on wether or not Asuka actually likes Shinji. And seeing as she is her voice actress, she seems to know Asuka inside and out


I don't know why we should be taking account of what a seiyuu says or thinks. She didn't construct the character...

xanderkh wrote:Plus, does the interview state in what context Asuka doesn't like about Shinji? Did she not like him at first, but does Asuka have the capacity to understand Shinji after EoE? Or does Asuka not like Shinji, Period? There's a lot to go on with just a simple answer without knowing the full context of the answe


Exactly. In what lapse of time are we referring to when we say "Asuka doesn't like about Shinji"? Because Asuka's feelings towards Shinji are shifting and changing over the entire series (and EoE).

C.T.1290 wrote:How would it be unfair to assume that Asuka doesn't like Shinji and take that as the truth?


Because is a reductionist statement. Asuka is maybe the most complex character after Rei, and her feelings towards Shinji and the others are complex and multi-directional. Furthermore, we have the end of EoE, who gives Asuka another layer. How can you state so easily that Asuka doesn't love Shinji? The answer can't be so easy, because we don't even know what is love for Asuka.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:28 am

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:I don't know why we should be taking account of what a seiyuu says or thinks. She didn't construct the character...

Because they are given guidance on the character to help their performances? Their views are hardly automatically worthless, at least in this case, given that Anno was prepared to let the last words of EoE be decided by the VA in place of his words.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby xanderkh » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:45 pm

^
Well, like Felipe, both the Anno and the VAs have multiple viewpoints when it comes to their own character. Miyamura may say that Asuka doesn't like Shinji, while Anno hints otherwise. It kind of adds to the multi-dimension of a character, like a real person having doubts or contradictions in their own opinions. "Do I like him or don't I?" If anything, it makes the characters more real, or at least provides avenues for new possibilities. :)

Me personally? I'm a HUGE Asuka and Shinji fan, as both RE-TAKE, the Second Try, Ghosts of Evangelion, and many others helped me transition into Evangelion itself, but I'm also willing to read, research, and analysis other character interpretations, like how Wreckage provided, so let's analyze if Asuka and Shinji ARE compatible as a couple.

While it's true that Asuka and Shinji have similar background traumas, and are both Eva Pilots....but other than that, what else do they actually have that makes them a couple? Asuka has a VERY ambitious personality, seeming like she'd want to do something big with her life, something almost world-renowned with her abilities and intellect. Shinji, however, is very passive and withdrawn, and most likely will keep to himself, maybe running a restaurant or being a farmer. Shinji isn't very ambitious, and seems to only want to move through life without causing pain to others or himself. No one was around to help him see that ambition trait, and that's going to be pretty hard to overcome.

Now, I'm not saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE, but it's going to be a pretty big mountain to cross, considering not just their life-style choices, but their personalities, where Asuka is VERY critical of others, and Shinji is passive and takes words from others pretty hardly. Now, Instrumentality did give them the chance to learn to understand themselves and each other somewhat and start that journey, but based on what we have so far, and the circumstances and toxicity of their previous relationship, does that understanding equate to romantic love? Again, that's a pretty huge mountain to cross, and it would take a lot of time and effort to restructure their personalities to be compatible. Unfortunately, especially now these days, people aren't really that patient for that kind of restructuring and conditioning, especially when there are other options of people available...

It's possible that, while Shinji and Asuka do understand each other based on their similarities of trauma and backgrounds, they may move forward to other options for romantic needs and compatibility, while staying in touch based on their traumas. It's kind of like how Veteran's still get together even after the war; the war has given them a bond of trust and mutual understanding, as they both have endured a lot of pain together, both before and after the Angel's war. They have a bond, yes, but it is a bond between comrades and fellow soldiers, not a necessarily a romantic one, given their personality differences.

But again, that is just a possible understanding between them, and as the EoE ending suggests, their journey has just begun, and who knows what is in store for the future? :)

What do YOU guys think? :)
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:36 pm

I think that however close they may remain on the basis of shared or similar experiences, their lives would be blighted by their being together permanently. They each need to live with someone who can offer a different perspective to help them put their traumas in their place.

If they lived together, they might be able to fool themselves that there was love there - but it would be a poor and fragile thing compared with what each should be capable of given appropriate support and understanding.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby xanderkh » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:09 pm

Personally, I think Shinji and Asuka may need some time apart to explore other avenues, and like you said Pwhodges, to put their trauma's behind them.

Then, maybe, just maybe, they can see something in each other that's irreplaceable to other people. :)
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:27 pm

Sure. Being able to understand one another is different from them falling in love. I'm not saying they are bound to be together or something like that. As a matter of fact, I don't think it is necessary for that to happen at any point As a matter of fact, even after EoE they are still very much broken. The best thing for them would be spend quite a while recovering and healing from their experiences. Shinji may very well learn to love himself and grow as a person, but that does not necessitate any one person, indeed he ultimately can only do it himself. Likewise, Asuka's (or Rei's) many problems aren't just going to be solved by Shinji's penis. They exist as full human beings on their own, not as accessories to the main character. Which I think is something a lot of people have trouble understanding: Evangelion is not a love story. It is not about how these two people fell in love. Asuka and Shinji might have the most prominent relationship in the show and Anno might have chosen to expose a lot though them, but that doesn't mean they are supposed to or even need to get together. This all plays out into many fans' desire to "fix" these characters as if they could just self insert as one them, but that whole idea is simply wishful thinking, and I think Anno had that very much in mind.

Still, after EoE, they are going to be stuck with each other for quite some time (or forever, depending on the state of the world at large), and they will need to navigate through their issues. Like the state of the world itself, it all boils down to your own interpretation of the series and its ultimate messages and themes. Maybe they'll kill each other leaving a barren, empty world behind. Maybe they'll manage, and the world will slowly but painfully recover. Maybe they'll actually make some progress and things will turn out okay. They may recover, with each other as part of the recovery or not, but they are going to be in the equation regardless. And I do think we saw a bit of progress at the end, the glimpse of change. We can only hope.

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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Kendrix » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:18 pm

Let's unpack this "same traumas" bit, tho.
This is somethng where when I was younger I'd answer "I guess so, still think the other ships are better/ that she's mean/that it's not gonna work" but now as an adult trying to function despite my own traumas it really rubs me the wrong way.

Trauma is something external that is inflicted, nay, impressed upon you. It's outside your control. It's not who you are (& realizing that would be part of a healing process. ) Their mothers being eaten was an outside cicumstance that impacted them,


If you're talking about the dead mother thing, they reacted in completely opposite ways (their reaction being something much more indicative of their inner workings & priorities) and if you're talking about the EVA piloting they it's something that they experienced it rather differently.

The experiences that broke Shinji were moral dillemas, coping with responsibility so enormous he could barely grasp its scope & violence in itself.

The experiences that broke Asuka were repeated brutal defeats, being unable to live up to her own perfectionism & basically being treated as a minor pawn.



If you believe in this whole 'opposites attract' stuff go ahead & ship your heart out, personal taste, yadda yadda etc. but don't tell me they're similar just because of trauma, low self-esteem or universal human traits.


It's not like I don't get (or in fact, dig) the whole "Sharing common experiences" thing in itself & as a romantic trope but how much do they really have in common apart from some level of basic human weakness? I mean so they're both lonely & want attention? That just makes them basically teenagers. If not basically human. Which is sorta the point they're standin examples to discuss the many pitfalls of the human condition.

Different people process events differently & end up with different unhealthy patterns as a result.
See, for example Misato & Asuka's vastly different reaction to the "workaholic parent gets dumped/divorced" scenario (or just divorce). It would be just as reasonable to claim that they are the only ones who "can really understand each other" when they obviously don't understand each other very much at all beyond a superficial level in part because they process pain differently -
Both pretend to be ok when they aren't because they're afraid of dependence, but while Asuka is sorta hiding in her walled fort hoping that someone will climb the walls & care for her, Misato doesn't want to think of or be reminded of negativity - hence why she's like "Don't worry that was a long time ago" downplaying the incident - because that's how she would want to be treated, & it backfired spectacularly.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:49 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:how much do they really have in common apart from some level of basic human weakness?

Well, I mean, they're going to have a hard time finding anyone else who actually, really understands the whole "Eva pilot" thing. That's a pretty big deal. Asuka and Shinji have had such uniquely bizarre shared experiences that they're effectively going to be aliens to anyone else who tries to get emotionally intimate with them.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:13 am

Their experiences may be alien to others, but their reactions are all too human - that, of course, is why the series is so relatable to so many of those who watch it. This is not so different from military PTSD sufferers, who may need to be part of a support group with members who have shared their experiences as a way to help them cope with living a more normal life away from them.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:49 am

^ Thats a whole different issue tho, that's more a question of sitting the kids down in a circle with a shrink like "Eva Pilots Anonymous", including Touji & Rei if she ever returns from the sea.

Even then, unlike a random bunch of war veterans they already know each other & have preconceived notions & loaded perceptions of each other- For example Shinji may fail to show up out of guilt about what happened Touji & Asuka, while Asuka can't stand any of the others & is gonna see them as the Rivals she lost to until the shrink makes some serious progress - their traumas are all tangled up in each other.



And to say that they can never relate to anyone ever again is just lazy. If say, holocaust survivors managed to settle down with a random person, get married, have kids & reintegrate into society (as many of them did) so can our pilots.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:50 am

^

That actually sounds like a great fanfic idea.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:28 am

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:^

That actually sounds like a great fanfic idea.



Perhaps... but the point I was intending to make is that they're not "two people who share the same traumas" like a pair of peeps who happen to be soldiers or domestic abuse victims or whatever- as far as the events involving EVAs are concerned, the other person is entertwines with the source/cause of their pain & there's a chance that having the other present will trigger/retraumatize them or just set them on edge. Lots of sensitive issues, buttons & bad blood there.


This is particularly true for Asuka. It may not be what objectively happened but on some level she views what happened to her as "Things didn't go my way because the other pilots were there" - There's many layers to unpack there but the experience of being "trumped" is something she's gonna have to bring to awareness, vocalize, process, let go off & reconceptualize. She's been denying her pain & vulnerability & needs to express it - but it's not gonna do eiher of them much good if that happens while Shinji's in the next room hearing her talk crap about himself, even if it's crap he's actually guilty of (all the more of a reason for Asuka to have a legitimate grievance she'll need to work through), not to speak of her talking crap about his friends. (including Rei - If she doesn't come back there might be a 'speaking ill off the dead' situation there)

At the point of developement they're at now they can probably manage to survive/cooperate/not kill each other until Misato detangs but actually healing is a differentpair of shoes. To begin with they are, in different ways, far too identified with their roles as EVA pilots & should be exploring/adapting to life outside of it instead of making it the basis of their decisions - this doesn't mean they should neccesarily break with the other pilots indeed this is a journey that they could take together... if they had reasons to want to be near each other other than "well I was an EVa pilot & so were they."
They both deserve to vent their side of the story but ideally not in each other's faces.

I mean think of it...

Shinji: I feel so bad because of what I did I wish I could just erase/forget it but I can't TT_TT
Asuka: * sarcastic/indignant * Boohoo, poor you, can't imagine how bad it must be, it's so much easier to be the one who was actually wanked on -.-

Not saying he should get the kid gloves but he's prolly better off with firm constructive criticism than the raw, angry shrieks of someone who's too hurt/desperate to modulate herself.


The most believable scenario would be one where they meet again as adults, having worked through their issues to the degree that they can see each other with less preconceptions (which, to their credit, isn't too uncommon a scenario for ff writers to actually do) - but of course, if you take away their shitty self esteem you removed the only thing they ever had in common...
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:57 pm

Am I the only one who thinks that their relationship might be similar to Negi Springfield's and Asuna Kagurazaka's from the Negima series, seeing how both Asuna and Asuka are so similar when comes to looks and personality (both red haired with pigtails, and a firey temper), and how they both treat the male protagonist in their Tsundere manner? And also, they both had a crush on a older male character, like almost twice their age.
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