Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:42 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:Sexual tension can be one-sided, and wanting to be acknowledged sexually certainly falls under that umbrella. From Asuka's POV, not being a fully-grown woman might have been the only thing holding Kaji back from accepting her romance, and so she wanted to prove to him she was ready for sexual things. Tension.


No it's not. That's not sexual tension. Even if you fully accept the one-sided meaning of the word, that situation doesn't fall into the "sexual tension" category. First of all, there must be tension, and it's not the case. If someone tells you "Hey, I wanna ride you all night long. Look at me how sexy I am" the sexual tension is non-existent. She just wanna bang Kanji, plain simple, because she treats herself as (sexually) mature and being with a full grown man makes you look mature, like Asuka wants (that doesn't mean Kaji is not sexually attractive to her). So where's the sexual tension? I didn't see it anywhere.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:17 am

As a female mammal, the sexual tension is most likely in her clitoris.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Sachi » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:25 am

I'm not sure how you don't see tension in the situation. Asuka is desperately seeking sexual attention, to the point where she lashes out emotionally. She's flirting with him constantly, while he ignores her. This riles her up, forcing her to make more forward advances toward him. The tension is that she sexually desires him, but is denied that despite her best attempts. It doesn't get much more clear cut than that.

EDIT:
View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:Please, don't twist my words. Of course the idea of needing a boyfriend to be a healthy person is toxic! When did I say otherwise? And (that's the funny part) I didn't use the word "boyfriend"! I already stated it. The words "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" (in an usual way) don't apply in the NGE universe (maybe with the Misato-Kaji exception).

When I said that Asuka needs so and so, I didn't mean as a prescription but a diagnosis, a description of what Asuka is looking for. And, duh! Of course it's a toxic idea, because Asuka is like that. Asuka has problems man. So please stop misunderstanding my words, it's annoying as hell....

Instead of assuming the worst in people and getting annoyed that they're twisting your words, maybe consider that they simply and honestly misunderstood you. There's no need for this sort of confrontational attitude that permeates many of your posts. It's more effective to play ball and reiterate your points than to go around telling people to stop misunderstanding you.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:47 am

OK, so are you saying that sexual tension comes from "not consumed sex"? Well, idk if that's the precise meaning. Here in Spain, sexual tension means "inability to express and therefore consummate sexual desires due to awkwardness or whatever". That creates the tension. If the tension comes from saying "NO, you can't fuck me" it is not tension, it's just frustration. But the sexual tension I was referring to is this (according to Wikipedia):

Sexual tension often occurs between individuals when the relationship is close and often flirtatious, yet the two people involved adamantly deny their feelings for each other to themselves, and to others.[1] Meanwhile, it can be extremely obvious to other friends/co-workers that such tension is present between the two individuals. It can be said that, often when people give in to sexual tension, the relationship can become complicated and awkward if no new relationship level is established, as the relationship that existed before the sex is, in a way, no longer valid.

Sexual tension is a common feature of plot and characterization in works of fiction. This longing is often suggested by incidents of intimacy; for instance, when two people or characters are alone and in close proximity (or actually touching), yet desire is never explicitly expressed. Another common theme is for characters to develop an interest in one another over the course of the plot, and if this is expertly done, the audience can become aware of the growing attraction.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Sachi » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:09 am

This is getting awfully semantic. Sexual frustration is a more general term for not being able to express oneself sexually, independent of other involved parties. Sexual tension comes directly from the interaction between two people, wherein at least one wants it but can't have it. Tension involves two, whereas frustration is more vague, and doesn't require another party. Tension falls under the umbrella of frustration, while being a much more pointed term.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:36 pm

It's not really semantics, though, because they mean two fundamentally different things, and are portrayed in very different manners. Sexual tension tends to be a constructive element (not always, but usually), the sort of thing that drives people closer together. Sexual frustration is an inability to display one's sexual desires in a constructive or meaningful way. Tension tends to be less because of a lack of ability on the part of the individual, but the pressures surrounding the couple: they know what they want, and they know how to get it, but prevent themselves from doing so for various external reasons. Frustration is internal, and internally motivated.

It is safer to say that Asuka and Shinji are the latter, as their problems are not a couple's issue, but two separate sets of individual problems with unique factors motivating those frustrations, which are exacerbated by each other's presence. Sexual tension requires something of a two-way street: both subjects feel clear sexual desire for each other, but are unable to consummate, and that's the key. Both desire each other.

It's never made clear if Shinji and Asuka desire each other, as their primary conflict is in their inability to connect with anyone. They are frustrated by their inability to express themselves, to connect, and often actively and knowingly sabotage any hints of relationship development with everyone. They clearly have sexual thoughts and desires, but they are not focused on each other, and are no different than any other set of teenage hormonal spikes.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:01 pm

Wow wow wow. So much it's going on right now. We all are mixing concepts and semantics. We have: frustration, sexual frustration, tension, sexual tension... and every one of us are giving them a different meaning. Why did I mention the word frustration? :sniffle: :sniffle: :sniffle:

I didn't say that Asuka was sexually frustrated. I was talking about a punctual situation. You are told: I don't wanna have sex with you! You get frustrated. That's a simple feeling.

Somebody sexually frustrated is someone who can't get laid as much as he/she wants over the years so yeah, it's more internalized.

Tension. What is social tension? It's not just getting kicked out or something. It has to do with nervousness. Here's one reference if you allow me:

Thayer, Robert E. (1996). The Origin of Everyday Moods: Managing Energy, Tension and Stress. New York, NY: Oxford University Press.

Sexual tension. Well, it has to do with the "nervousness" to express the inability to manifest a sexual desire. At least for me I think that's the most accurate meaning to go for. If you don't agree with that meaning it's fine.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:14 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The correct way to respond to what Kendrix said is to track down the original statement before basing any conclusions upon it. As is, you seem to be just lazily going belly-up for your preexisting bias.

Preexisting bias? The one about my negativity towards Asuka?

I've come the Tumblr post about the interview where Miyamura replied with a "no" on wether or not Asuka actually likes Shinji. And seeing as she is her voice actress, she seems to know Asuka inside and out. If that's so, then that must mean that her answer confirms it. Plus, Asuka's negative attitude towards Shinji seems to further prove that.

By the way, I've sent you a message some time ago concerning another topic thread which I believe was about a month back, the one where you think I might be coming off as a little crazy? Wasn't sure if you saw it yet seeing as I haven't heard back from you yet. Just a little FYI.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:39 pm

TheCarkolum: Hey, easy there: no one is saying you said this or that (at least, I'm not). I've observed something in the thread I felt needed to be pointed out, so take it or leave it. I don't think you're wrong in your assessment of Asuka, but there is a term 'sexual frustration' and a term 'sexual tension' that tend to mean two different things. In other words, they are preexisting phrases describing established conditions, and have been used as tools in fiction for a while. Sexual tension, for instance, has long been used as an element of romantic story arcs because while it is, at the root, a cause of frustration (usually for us, the viewer), the effect is no destructive but tantalizing. It is a tension that builds anticipation (because remember: not all stress and tension are bad things). Sexual frustration tends to be a something portrayed in a more negative light (for obvious reasons), and refers to sexual difficulties within the individual, not the couple.

If you're referring to separate frustrations from that, but still overlapping with those problems, I can see where you're going.

C.T.1290: It's a good observation, and being that she's the voice actress, her word counts for a lot. I'd still call it 'Word of Saint Paul,' though: it seems that Anno may have different opinions on Asuka, or in the very least is unwilling to comment on them and leave them more ambiguous.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby xanderkh » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:01 pm

^
It's pretty much been established that there really isn't a fully grounded opinion about Shinji and Asuka's relationship, even amongst the staff themselves. Then again, Miyamura has also been rumored to carry a copy of the RE-TAKE doujinshi with her, which is a heavily based story on Asuka and Shinji's relationship.

Plus, does the interview state in what context Asuka doesn't like about Shinji? Did she not like him at first, but does Asuka have the capacity to understand Shinji after EoE? Or does Asuka not like Shinji, Period? There's a lot to go on with just a simple answer without knowing the full context of the answer.

And even then, there are still hints during the show that both of them want to make a move of some sort. They just don't know how to make the first step or how to communicate what they want without feeling vulnerable.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:15 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:^
It's pretty much been established that there really isn't a fully grounded opinion about Shinji and Asuka's relationship, even amongst the staff themselves. Then again, Miyamura has also been rumored to carry a copy of the RE-TAKE doujinshi with her, which is a heavily based story on Asuka and Shinji's relationship.

This is rather surprising. Asuka's voice actress, the person who seems to know Asuka real well for having her step into her shoes, saying that she doesn't like Shinji. And yet, she is rumored to have had a Doujinshi about Shinji and Asuka(which may or may not have Asuka be a little out of character).
jcmoorehead wrote:Well no, that's just one persons interpretation, granted she is Asuka's VA but it's hardly conclusive proof that Asuka didn't like Shinji at all. Anno is someone who has gone on record as saying there are many interpretations and there is evidence within the series itself that Asuka did/does like Shinji. If she didn't why would she want him to hold her? Why would she get jealous at him and Rei talking? Why would she have visited him after Leliel?

I'm not saying all of these are full blown examples of her loving him, but to say she never liked him at all seems a bit unfair.

How would it be unfair to assume that Asuka doesn't like Shinji and take that as the truth?
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Kendrix » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:25 pm

^First a rumor is just a rumor.

Also, another thing we know about Miyamura is that she's an incorrigible optimist, a sucker for happy endings & never stopped hoping for a happy ending for Asuka, invariably being dissapointed all the time, mentioned in both her reacting to the EoE strips & wishing it was happier, as well as her idea of Q being "Well, at least Asuka got to be tough & grownup, finally the day has come where she stands on her own 2 feet ", complete with an affectonate comparision to her at the time 2 year old son.

"Seeing Asuka get a happy ending" might override preference in that regard, that she doesn't thing it's a reality in canonland isn't the same as being a super salty anti-shipper, the cast probably has a more differentiated view than the fandom. A lot of us were horny teens ourselves when we first watched it but they all got to it as adults & would be immersed in the job for weeks etc. (Case in point, one time Ogata got asked the "who should Shinji end up with" question her answer was "Kaji-san, so he gets decently parented for once.")

Also it's just a very popular (I dare say overrated) fanwork that was relevant, why not read it for curiosity?

Must be weird to see pr0n of a role you acted tho especially if you regard them like they were your kid.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby xanderkh » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:34 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:This is rather surprising. Asuka's voice actress, the person who seems to know Asuka real well for having her step into her shoes, saying that she doesn't like Shinji. And yet, she is rumored to have had a Doujinshi about Shinji and Asuka(which may or may not have Asuka be a little out of character).


While it's a doujinshi itself, the manga does a heck of a job laying down the crux of both Shinji and Asuka's issues and the steps taking to overcome them. :)

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:How would it be unfair to assume that Asuka doesn't like Shinji and take that as the truth?


Because there are too many contradictive events that happen during the series that counter that assumption.

Yes, Asuka and Shinji both hurt each other deeply in the end, but that doesn't mean that Asuka hated Shinji simply because she's a bitch or that she just fundamentally hates him. She obviously does want Shinji's presence, cause why would she sneak into Shinji's room that one night for comfort from her nightmares about her mother? Or her attempts to flirt with him? They aren't just attempts to bring Shinji down just to mess with Shinji's feelings like some sadistic bully.

The problem with Asuka and Shinji's relationship at it's core is miscommunication, and the ability to even try to communicate with each other. Both are very messed up teens with really bad preconceived notions on how the world works or how to function within it. Even worse with the pressure of the entire world on their shoulders. In the past, they've been hurt deeply, and their afraid of being hurt again, so they've come up with defenses to protect themselves from being hurt again, Asuka projecting outward, and Shinji withdrawing inward. Both want to be loved, but are afraid to be hurt, but to be loved is to accept the possibility of being hurt, cause the reward is sometimes better than the risk.

Unfortunately, both Asuka and Shinji are at equal fault in their failures, both unwilling to make the first step, or unwilling to communicate what they want. So all they've done is push each other away, only hurting themselves without the possibility of love.

THAT is the crux of their problem, a failure to understand or even make the attempt to understand each other, not a fundamental hatred of who they are.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:40 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:How would it be unfair to assume that Asuka doesn't like Shinji and take that as the truth?

Because it fails to recognise that like and dislike are in real relationships neither absolute nor mutually exclusive.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:47 am

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:The problem with Asuka and Shinji's relationship at it's core is miscommunication, and the ability to even try to communicate with each other. Both are very messed up teens with really bad preconceived notions on how the world works or how to function within it. Even worse with the pressure of the entire world on their shoulders. In the past, they've been hurt deeply, and their afraid of being hurt again, so they've come up with defenses to protect themselves from being hurt again, Asuka projecting outward, and Shinji withdrawing inward. Both want to be loved, but are afraid to be hurt, but to be loved is to accept the possibility of being hurt, cause the reward is sometimes better than the risk.

Unfortunately, both Asuka and Shinji are at equal fault in their failures, both unwilling to make the first step, or unwilling to communicate what they want. So all they've done is push each other away, only hurting themselves without the possibility of love.

THAT is the crux of their problem, a failure to understand or even make the attempt to understand each other, not a fundamental hatred of who they are.


In that respect, their relationship could be seen to represent Humanity in general.

Think about all the conflicts that have ultimately been caused by people failing to attempt to understand others. The nobility of France didn't attempt to understand the common French people, and the French Revolution started, which then led to the Napoleonic Wars. Hitler didn't attempt to understand Jews, other German minorities, Communists, or Slavs, so the Holocaust started and WWII reached a new level of horror on the Eastern Front. The Chinese government didn't attempt to understand the pro-Democracy demonstrators, so the Tiananmen Square Massacre started. Al Qaeda didn't attempt to understand anyone who even slightly disagreed with them about religion, so the War On Terror started, and people are still being fed to the WOT meatgrinder.

But I'm probably looking into it a bit too deeply.

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Postby The Cruel » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:33 am

What makes people doubt on the releationship between Shinji and Asuka is that it would be out of character for them to love each other.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:46 am

They're so young, and so burdened with deep emotional traumata, it would be out of character for them to (romantically) love anybody!
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Postby silvermoonlight » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:01 am

View Original PostThe Cruel wrote:What makes people doubt on the releationship between Shinji and Asuka is that it would be out of character for them to love each other.


As some one who watched the series back in the 2000's what killed there relationship for me was not the series as I viewed them as kids struggling with mental problems and having difficulty getting there feelings out and I really thought they could get past it what utterly drove the nail in the coffin was End of Evangelion because to me it felt utterly toxic after that and I didn't come back around to the idea of them as a couple again until I read the manga years later.

I think Post End of Evangelion fanfiction like Jimmy's 2nd try brings up a point which is that Shinji and Asuka really need time with out other people in the way so they can work through there feelings after instrumentality and it won't be an over night thing where they kiss and make up they might spend over a year or more just working it out before going down the romantic path and redefine themselves as people and start from scratch.
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Postby The Cruel » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:51 am

Reichu wrote:They're so young, and so burdened with deep emotional traumata, it would be out of character for them to (romantically) love anybody!

silvermoonlight wrote:
As some one who watched the series back in the 2000's what killed there relationship for me was not the series as I viewed them as kids struggling with mental problems and having difficulty getting there feelings out and I really thought they could get past it what utterly drove the nail in the coffin was End of Evangelion because to me it felt utterly toxic after that and I didn't come back around to the idea of them as a couple again until I read the manga years later.

I think Post End of Evangelion fanfiction like Jimmy's 2nd try brings up a point which is that Shinji and Asuka really need time with out other people in the way so they can work through there feelings after instrumentality and it won't be an over night thing where they kiss and make up they might spend over a year or more just working it out before going down the romantic path and redefine themselves as people and start from scratch.

It's like the war of the roses between them. They were about to slaughter each other off and still feel guilty about it, knowing that would kill their hopes.
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Postby FelipeFritschF » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:06 pm

Let me add that I've gotten curious over that interview with Miyamura yet all I could find were these two tumblr posts:

http://kawoshin-is-canon.tumblr.com/pos ... having-fun

Video of an event that happened in 1997, Rei and Misato’s VA talking.

Who would be Orihime if Shinji is Hikoboshi?

Megumi Hayashibara: Kaworu

Kotono Mitsuishi: Agree

And who is Rei’s Hikoboshi?

Megumi Hayashibara: (Suggests Gendo)

Me: Jesus Christ woman

——————————————-

After Eva 3.0 I don’t think anyone would say Gendo is Rei’s Hikoboshi…

Also, I wonder what were their faces after seeing this 16 years after.

Megumi Hayashibara, on Shinji, said that if it was Asuka it was gonna be painful and rain everyday*. That’s kind of funny because Yuko Miyamura doesn’t like Shinji neither LAS at all, so I would have loved to hear what she adds up to Hayashibara’s comment.

Is there anything Miyamura likes? I think the only time she seemed happy was about Asuka in Eva 3.0

It would have been really funny to see Megumi Ogata here because she loves everything and I don’t think it’s a secret that she likes Kawoshin so maybe she has something funny to say.

Akira Ishida probably doesn’t care about anything.

I really like voice actors.


http://kawoshin-is-canon.tumblr.com/page/2

Mmm, let me see if I can recall all of them.

Kotono Mitsuishi and Megumi Hayashibara in a music event started to talk about Tanabata regarding characters and when wondering if Asuka could be Shinji’s Orihime, Mitsuishi laughed and said that it was gonna rain everyday.

Miyamura is a person that vows for Asuka’s happiness almost every time she speaks and has made several commentaries about her relationship with other characters. That Shinji should stay away from her because he just makes her have an horrible time, that Asuka needs a Kaworu-like love interest because that would be perfect for her (this is probably the reason why LAK is suddenly popular, and adding the commentary by Tsurumaki about Mari being a Kaworu-like character and her closeness to Asuka then there you have the reason why Mariasu is popular), that Shinji needs to become a more easy-going boy, that he is better of with Kaworu. Recently in a con during a Q&A with the public Tiffany Grant and her were asked if Asuka loves Shinji and Miyamura just flat out said “No” while Grant told the person “Are you stupid?” (probably parodying Asuka I don’t think Grant was trying to be rude). People who went to the con said that a lot of people in the public were enraged while they just sat there like “uuuuummmhh”.

That’s all I can recall, sorry but my Eva scans, bookmarks, saved interviews, etc. are in my dead laptop :U

Now I realize I worded that rude, um.



While presumably there is more material out there, the point still stands that what we're talking about is a voice actor's opinion on their characters. While, sure, they might have plenty of insight into production and how the character came to be through their performances, they ultimately didn't write these characters, so I don't think what they say is anything more than, well, their opinion. Consider how Kaworu's VA really doesn't seem to care about Kawoshin as a pairing either, yet I don't see anyone using that as an argument for or against KaworuXShinji. And about Grant's declaration, well, then we have the EoE commentary made by her colleagues saying Shinji got Asuka pregnant through some sort of metaphysical sex and that she's a fusion of herself, Rei and Misato because of her perceived eye colour. Unfortunately I couldn't seem to find that mention of Grant saying that, but I'm reasonably sure that, like the other two posts, I've found it in, ahem, kawoshin-is-canon.tumblr.com, which also provides some amazing posts like how one of the pages in one of the comic strips in the Eva2 has Shinji being friendly to Kaworu of his own accord and that indicates how they are dating, or how the existence of fanart featuring them in *somewhat* sexualized positions in "official artbooks" featuring multiple different pairings in multiple different individual pages, is also proof of "official support". So, lack of primary source aside in any of the very large databases we have access to, I have a little doubt if at the very least they happen to provide any more detail than just "Miyamura said no".

With all that said, I think it all relates in a more meta fashion towards Eva as a whole: they've failed, yes, but, well, maybe they can try again, like everyone does.

Better isn't really relevant in Eva. None of it is really ideal or healthy. It would be ideal to go to therapy, not fight in an apocalyptic war and gain more traumas. But that's not what happened, so now they have to try to deal with that. And Anno chose to expose that through Asuka and Shinji precisely because of the way he constructed their characters and their interactions. Ultimately however, the same hope for a better future also applies to them after EoE's ending.

Shinji spends the first half of EoE begging for Asuka's attention. It's that same begging that makes him retract into his shell, while Asuka herself is fighting the MP Evas. It's seeing Eva 02's mangled and disfigured body that finally gets Shinji to completely panic, because now he believes that his last avenue of escape is gone. When he finally confronts her in the train scene and the coffee fight, Shinji states that he wants to help her, and "stay with her forever". But Asuka has seen through his bullshit. Asuka doesn't want to just be used as an emotional crutch, he doesn't want to be his "doll". No relationship can be built without mutual trust. Like she also says just one minute before, she wants all of him, or nothing at all. And Shinji reacts violently, he doesn't want to consider Asuka as a human being with her own needs. Shinji is objectifying Asuka (a lot like the otaku objectify their waifus). That is their central problem: they only seem themselves.

There is a reason why this scene in EoE also mirrors the kiss scene in Ep 15: Asuka was also begging for Shinji's attention, he was completely oblivious to that, and when he didn't do anything she interpreted that as rejection, which was one of the reasons which led to her downward spiral, as we can see clearly in Ep 22. Same thing for the Walls of Jericho scene in ep 9 (look into the movie that scene is referencing, it's pretty interesting), and many others. She was feeling desperately alone and Shinji wouldn't indulge her for even a second. He jerked off over her in a vulnerable state, and didn't even lift a finger to even try to help her while she was eaten alive.

Asuka was telling Shinji that he didn't really care and he just wanted a way to run away from the pain. How he was afraid of everyone else, and how he could never love anyone, because he never loved himself. And she was totally right.

In Asuka's point of view, rejecting Shinji was simply payback. It's a tragedy, but that's what it is.

When Shinji tries, again, to strangle her, he is trying to verify if he is indeed in real life. If he was still in Instrumentality, this would be a world that was designed to cater only to his own needs Asuka that was made only to satisfy his desires would never resist him, even if he tried to kill her. So when Asuka not only does resist, but actually shows the first act of compassion towards him in the entire series, that not only confirms he has indeed returned to reality, but it also shocks him and feels ashamed for all he did to her. Furthermore, this also signifies the personal growth they are now ready to have - hopefully.

After EoE they now have to deal with each other, and one can only hope that they can do that in a healthy way. Considering how Asuka had to caress Shinji to bring him back to reality, one would be inclined to hope that that can happen, that she has indeed learned through Instrumentality, that both Asuka and Shinji have finally learned to love themselves and can now try to reach other people (aka the whole point of Eva), just like how humanity at large can come back.

I'm quite sleepy right now, so I'll just paste this video.


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