C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby Reichu » Mon May 01, 2017 5:51 pm

You can recognize, I hope, that if you are sheltered, it's extraordinarily likely that you simply haven't encountered certain kinds of behavior, or don't possess the experience to recognize it when you see it, as opposed to it simply not existing at all. Heck, even if one doesn't live a sheltered life, it's just not possible to see everything that exists.
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Postby big_big_bozo » Mon May 01, 2017 5:55 pm

View Original PostRedgirl01 wrote:I am a teenager, I'm 18 years old. And here, it's legally an adult. Yes, I have met teenagers, but I'm sheltered, I've been home-schooled since third grade so I haven't been socializing with people that much. The teenagers I know are pure sweeties who are nice to people. They're very responsible and low-key. Some are argumentative and aggressive but none want to be seen as adults. Not even my mom knows teenagers that want to be seen as adults and she's been to high school.


If you admit you're sheltered, why not take a moment to examine the conclusions you've rushed to regarding a character who's issues you likley haven't dealt with? Look at this as an oppurtunity to examine yourself first and any pre-conceived notions you've been carrying around, maybe grow a bit. Just trust me when I say this; not everyone you run into is gonna be "very responsible" and "low key", particularly at your age. Far from it actually. But you should refrain from demonizing such people as well, they've got years of baggage and experiences that you would be foolish to dismiss. Ya know how it goes, "shades of gray" and all that schlock.
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby Redgirl01 » Mon May 01, 2017 6:03 pm

View Original Postbig_big_bozo wrote:If you admit you're sheltered, why not take a moment to examine the conclusions you've rushed to regarding a character who's issues you likley haven't dealt with? Look at this as an oppurtunity to examine yourself first and any pre-conceived notions you've been carrying around, maybe grow a bit. Just trust me when I say this; not everyone you run into is gonna be "very responsible" and "low key", particularly at your age. Far from it actually. But you should refrain from demonizing such people as well, they've got years of baggage and experiences that you would be foolish to dismiss. Ya know how it goes, "shades of gray" and all that schlock.


My sig says I dealt with trauma. But the trauma occurred in school because people didn't give me the socialization I needed because I'm autistic and it was pretty bad. That happened when I was 7 years old and for five years, I acted like a really angry brat who had even more trouble crying and would only cry every like 4-6 months. I started experiencing more sadness when my grandma died at 11 and got more carefree and well-behaved when my 13th birthday was nearing. So, around 13 or 14, I was starting to get over my trauma and become a better behaved person. So, that's why I disapprove of this show because these people had these traumas that occured ten years ago and still haven't gotten over them. Yes, they were really serious, but they still don't have the right to still be passive (Shinji), be a hot-headed histronic (Asuka), an emotionless girl who rarely reacts to anything (Rei), and a careless drunkard who doesn't have enough responsibilities for the kids (Misato). Even Nerv is too concerned about these kids fighting stupid giant robots to even consider therapy or something, which is something they truly need to help with their behaviors. Misato also is too careless to put herself in therapy. :explode: Though, I probably didn't start crying more until I was like 15.
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby big_big_bozo » Mon May 01, 2017 6:28 pm

View Original PostRedgirl01 wrote:My sig says I dealt with trauma. But the trauma occurred in school because people didn't give me the socialization I needed because I'm autistic and it was pretty bad. That happened when I was 7 years old and for five years, I acted like a really angry brat who had even more trouble crying and would only cry every like 4-6 months. I started experiencing more sadness when my grandma died at 11 and got more carefree and well-behaved when my 13th birthday was nearing. So, around 13 or 14, I was starting to get over my trauma and become a better behaved person. So, that's why I disapprove of this show because these people had these traumas that occured ten years ago and still haven't gotten over them.


Look, I'm sorry to hear about the shit you've gone through. Honestly, my background isn't all that different from yours .... minus the home schooling and the "becoming a better behaved person" part. But dissaproving of a show because it displays characters dealing with emotional trauma and (speculated) psychological disorders just because they might remind you of your own trauma is just somewhat short-sighted. Not everyone carries with them the will or means to overcome their demons, like you claimed to have done. Should such people just be ignored, cast away as failures? I think you and I both know that's downright cruel.

Think about it, Eva doesn't glorify or congratulate its characters for their troubles or issues. In fact, it can be downright brutal at times, but only as a means to help the veiwer understand and relate. I hope you're getting what I'm trying to say, and can one day appreciate what Anno was trying to communicate with his delibrate choice to write these flawed characters.

Not gonna overstep my bounds, but it sounds like you're still carrying around alot of mental baggage, which is directly impeding your ability to properly evaluate Eva (and other people for that matter). Hope you're talking to someone professional about this, as opposed to a couple losers on an Anime forum ;)

View Original PostRedgirl01 wrote:Yes, they were really serious, but they still don't have the right to still be passive (Shinji), be a hot-headed histronic (Asuka), an emotionless girl who rarely reacts to anything (Rei), and a careless drunkard who doesn't have enough responsibilities for the kids (Misato).


What do you mean by "don't have the right"? For better or worse, all three of them (Rei is a special case) ended up this way for a reason, they didn't come out the womb fundamentally broken. You seem to have some assumptions about how people are supposed to behave at a certain age, as if theres some sort of universal standard. I'm afraid that ain't the case. There are models and ideals one should strive towards during their lifetime, but here's the rub; not everyone will succeed in this endeavour.

View Original PostRedgirl01 wrote:Even Nerv is too concerned about these kids fighting stupid giant robots to even consider therapy or something, which is something they truly need to help with their behaviors. Misato also is too careless to put herself in therapy. :explode:


It's kinda become a running joke by now, the idea that NERV's mental health department must be staffed entirely by the most incompetent people this side of the Pacific.

Also, I have a good feeling this thread is gonna get locked real quick if this discount therapy session gets out of hand ;)
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby xanderkh » Mon May 01, 2017 6:40 pm

View Original Postbig_big_bozo wrote:It's kinda become a running joke by now, the idea that NERV's mental health department must be staffed entirely by the most incompetent people this side of the pacific.

Also, I have a good feeling this thread is gonna get locked real quick if this discount therapy session gets out of hand ;)


Going off "topic" a bit, there's actually a theory that everything about NERV was INTENTIONALLY designed that way towards the Children, in order to make them more susceptible to the idea of Instrumentality. Think about it: Asuka has convinced herself all her life that EVA is the only way to make herself worthwhile as a human being, but where did she GET this idea that EVA is the only way to confirm her existence? NERV. And by an extension: SEELE.

True, it's a great honor to be the defender of humanity, but considering the end-goal in mind of Instrumentality that SEELE had for everything, it makes certain aspects of Evangelion as a WHOLE downright insidious, cruel, and nightmare inducing. Using CHILDREN to pilot these biological mechas that INFLICT mental and physical pain on them, keeping them in the dark about their entire mission unless it concerns their USEFULLNESS, and having NO form of therapy available to help the children when humanity needs them the most, cause it's not going to help the world when these savoirs PANIC or have PTSD in the driver's seat.

When you see it that way, it kind of makes a horrible kind of sense. The whole traumatic-conga-line of these kids experiences with Evangelion wasn't just tragedy.....but ORCHESTRATED.

With that in mind, what's the best way to convince these kids that Instrumentality (akin to suicide) is a better option: Make life for them as worthless and painful as possible.... :(
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby big_big_bozo » Mon May 01, 2017 6:57 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Going off "topic" a bit, there's actually a theory that everything about NERV was INTENTIONALLY designed that way towards the Children, in order to make them more susceptible to the idea of Instrumentality.


Yeah, I've heard of this theory before, and while it's certainly intriguing, I don't quite buy it. It seems plausible if you step back and look at the bigger picture, but it gets bogged down by too many little failsafes SEELE would have needed to implement in order for everything to run smoothly. Not to mention the fact that, in spite of their reach and resources, it didn't even work as intended. They left WAY too much up to chance, hoping all the trauma they may (or may not) have inflicted upon the children during their upbringing would lead them down a satisfactory path. What if Shinji had managed to overcome the loss of his mother and enjoy a relativley normal childhood? Well FUCK, there goes the plan I guess, better luck next time lads.

Although, maybe this theory holds more water than I thought, given that SEELE may just not be as wise as we give them credit. To put it in other words, they're REALLY fuckin bad at 4D-Chess ;)
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby Chuckman » Mon May 01, 2017 7:06 pm

You know, I have to be real here. Is Asuka exaggerated? Yes. Is she a Japanese creator's idea of what a pushy Euro-American-Something-Something teenage girl acts like? Yes.

She's pretty much spot on though. Young teen girls mostly act just like that, even if it's not all the time and not towards everybody. Every teen girl treats somebody the way Asuka treats Shinji at one time or another. The insecurity, outbursts, obsession with the pecking order, rush to be an adult, interest in adult men over boys her own age are all fairly normal.

What crosses into abnormal and disturbing is her tendency to retreat into a shell, push away genuine, affection, and her precocious sexuality. (Teenagers of all sexes and genders expressing an interest in adults is normal- acting out so far as to directly seek contact is not)

She's probably the most accurate portrayal of a psychologically abused little girl I've ever seen, especially since Anno gives her enough respect not to make her a precious damsel flower who's ready to just unload all her emotions and apologize for her own pain when the right boy kisses her.

Yeah, she deserves sympathy. A genuinely compassionate person isn't compassionate only to inoffensive people who never test their patience or challenge them.

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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby Redgirl01 » Mon May 01, 2017 7:23 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:You know, I have to be real here. Is Asuka exaggerated? Yes. Is she a Japanese creator's idea of what a pushy Euro-American-Something-Something teenage girl acts like? Yes.

She's pretty much spot on though. Young teen girls mostly act just like that, even if it's not all the time and not towards everybody. Every teen girl treats somebody the way Asuka treats Shinji at one time or another. The insecurity, outbursts, obsession with the pecking order, rush to be an adult, interest in adult men over boys her own age are all fairly normal.

What crosses into abnormal and disturbing is her tendency to retreat into a shell, push away genuine, affection, and her precocious sexuality. (Teenagers of all sexes and genders expressing an interest in adults is normal- acting out so far as to directly seek contact is not)

She's probably the most accurate portrayal of a psychologically abused little girl I've ever seen, especially since Anno gives her enough respect not to make her a precious damsel flower who's ready to just unload all her emotions and apologize for her own pain when the right boy kisses her.

Yeah, she deserves sympathy. A genuinely compassionate person isn't compassionate only to inoffensive people who never test their patience or challenge them.


Are you sure every teen girl treats Asuka the way she treats Shinji at one time or another? Because I haven't noticed that in teenagers and I wasn't that hostile to anyone at her age. They don't call people idiots all the time nor do they rush to be an adult or be interested in adult men over boys their age. Though, I did used to crush on older men and still do, that doesn't mean we don't like boys our own age. So what are you talking about here?

I think Anno had an inaccurate perception of how a teenager acts and probably doesn't know much how they act since he's a 50 year old man or something and it's been a long time since he was a teenager. So, he's writing these kids out from an adult's point of view. Teenagers around Asuka's age may be disrespectful or depressed, but they don't get away with it. And they are not interested in being an adult, they may think they're grown up because THEY ARE GROWN UP, THEY'RE BIG KIDS. But they do not say I want to be an adult, they may not like being treated like a little kid though. But even younger kids don't like being treated like a little kid.

Like I keep saying, I read milestones on how kids should act and I look at the teenagers I met during my lifetime. But I may be wrong since I'm an American, I don't know how germans or Japanese teenagers or whatever country they're from other than America act.

View Original Postbig_big_bozo wrote:What do you mean by "don't have the right"? For better or worse, all three of them (Rei is a special case) ended up this way for a reason, they didn't come out the womb fundamentally broken. You seem to have some assumptions about how people are supposed to behave at a certain age, as if theres some sort of universal standard. I'm afraid that ain't the case. There are models and ideals one should strive towards during their lifetime, but here's the rub; not everyone will succeed in this endeavour.


In response to your question, I said that they don't have the right because just because they had bad traumas when they were little does not mean that they let it bother them so much that they act like the insufferably broken people that they are. They are like 14 years old, 14 year olds should be more optimistic, happy, righteous and they're still acting like 2 year olds and babies, very far in age from 14 and yet very annoying to me. Rei is probably the most mature out of this cast, she may not act like a terrible two but she shows little emotions. And Misato is 28, she should know better than to drink all the time, getting drunk and being so irresponsible to these kids and self-righteous. I don't think she acts childish as 2, but she's still childish to me.
Last edited by Redgirl01 on Mon May 01, 2017 7:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby Reichu » Mon May 01, 2017 7:29 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Going off "topic" a bit, there's actually a theory that everything about NERV was INTENTIONALLY designed that way towards the Children, in order to make them more susceptible to the idea of Instrumentality. (snip)

Big problem: the Children were never "supposed" to be the instigators of Instrumentality. Seele had their own plan for setting it off (which we know didn't require the kids in any way, since they ordered the JSSDF to terminate them on sight), and Gendo had his (wherein he intended to play the role eventually handed off to Shinji).
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Postby Bagheera » Mon May 01, 2017 7:32 pm

View Original PostRedgirl01 wrote:I think Anno had an inaccurate perception of how a teenager acts and probably doesn't know much how they act since he's a 50 year old man or something and it's been a long time since he was a teenager.


It's really weird to me that someone who admits she's sheltered keeps making general statements about how teenagers act, and keeps blowing off input from other people who are not sheltered and have both been and interacted with teenagers at various points in their lives. People are giving you contrary views based on their own lived experiences. Why are you ignoring them?
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Postby xanderkh » Mon May 01, 2017 7:39 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Big problem: the Children were never "supposed" to be the instigators of Instrumentality. Seele had their own plan for setting it off (which we know didn't require the kids in any way, since they ordered the JSSDF to terminate them on sight), and Gendo had his (wherein he intended to play the role eventually handed off to Shinji).


That is a bit of a problem now that you mention it. It could be attributed to them wanting to have multiple methods to ensure that Instrumentality is on track, and when one plan is better than another or the previous plan fails, toss them aside and move on to the next option.

After all, Keel did say that Shinji's method of Instrumentality was "acceptable" before he "died". :P
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby Redgirl01 » Mon May 01, 2017 7:42 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's really weird to me that someone who admits she's sheltered keeps making general statements about how teenagers act, and keeps blowing off input from other people who are not sheltered and have both been and interacted with teenagers at various points in their lives. People are giving you contrary views based on their own lived experiences. Why are you ignoring them?



Um... because I'm relying too much on milestones. I wanted to write my characters out based on milestones so I can get them to act the age that they are. I mean, there are experts writing these milestones who probably interacted with a lot of children so that they can make milestones on how the average child may act.
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Postby Settie » Mon May 01, 2017 8:03 pm

I don't think NERV or Seele groomed the pilots to accept instrumentality, i think they just didn't care about them since they were just a means to an end. All they needed them for was the elimination of the angels, and this led to setbacks to both of em. Seele lost the lance and NERV lost Rei II, all because Asuka became unable to pilot.

Is Asuka deserving of sympathy? Yes i would say so, given all we get to learn through the series, her behavior is a result of her early trauma and not due to some inherent flaw.

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Postby Bagheera » Mon May 01, 2017 8:13 pm

View Original PostRedgirl01 wrote:Um... because I'm relying too much on milestones.


Just so you know, these milestones you keep speaking of don't mean anything to the rest of us. They just aren't a part of our lives or our experiences, so referring to them doesn't tell us anything.
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Postby big_big_bozo » Mon May 01, 2017 8:56 pm

View Original PostRedgirl01 wrote:In response to your question, I said that they don't have the right because just because they had bad traumas when they were little does not mean that they let it bother them so much that they act like the insufferably broken people that they are. They are like 14 years old, 14 year olds should be more optimistic, happy, righteous and they're still acting like 2 year olds and babies, very far in age from 14 and yet very annoying to me. Rei is probably the most mature out of this cast, she may not act like a terrible two but she shows little emotions. And Misato is 28, she should know better than to drink all the time, getting drunk and being so irresponsible to these kids and self-righteous. I don't think she acts childish as 2, but she's still childish to me.


Ummm ....... why do I feel like we're going in circles? All I got from this is that you have no intention of reevaluating any of your preconceptions and are comfortabe with simply doubling down on your tunnel vision. Really, that's a shame. You keep referring to what the characters "should" or "ought" to do, never giving a moment to consider why they are the way they are. Your understanding of the show (among other things) is fundamentally flawed, and unless you're willing to concede that some of us might have a point or two, I fail to see how this discussion will bear any fruit.
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Postby Reichu » Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:That is a bit of a problem now that you mention it. It could be attributed to them wanting to have multiple methods to ensure that Instrumentality is on track, and when one plan is better than another or the previous plan fails, toss them aside and move on to the next option.

I dunno, man. They actually need the pilots to get through phase 1 of their plan (kill the Angels); they don't need them for phase 2 (HIP). Intentionally making the pilots worse at performing their only job will do the exact opposite of ensuring that Instrumentality is on track: it will guarantee that the train never reaches the station.
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Postby Redgirl01 » Mon May 01, 2017 9:07 pm

Okay let's do this, can any of you guys tell me what teenager you've seen that wanted to be an adult in the way Asuka was and treated people the way she treats Shinji? How so? What did they do? What did they say? Were they from another country other than America? Why were they acting this way? How did you respond?

Can people from this generation in 00s-2010s and from old generation from the 70s-90s tell me the difference in how teenagers of 70-90s act and teenagers of 00s-2010s
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Postby xanderkh » Mon May 01, 2017 9:16 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I dunno, man. They actually need the pilots to get through phase 1 of their plan (kill the Angels); they don't need them for phase 2 (HIP). Intentionally making the pilots worse at performing their only job will do the exact opposite of ensuring that Instrumentality is on track: it will guarantee that the train never reaches the station.


That is true. As I said, it's just a theory on my part. ^_^ Plus, if that was the case, why wouldn't they take better care of the pilots during Phase 1 so that they make sure that their "train" makes it to the station without the angels? Why pick UNSTABLE teenagers instead of engineering people to do their dirty work for them like Rei was engineered?

Maybe not like actually "engineering" a person from scratch, but maybe molding a person through Operant Conditioning or through some other psychological techniques (As Gob did with "Samson" in his fic)? Would rule out any disloyalty at the last minute, like what Asuka and Shinji did at the end.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
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Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
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Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

C.T.1290
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon May 01, 2017 10:14 pm

Okay, maybe I've been a little hard on Asuka.
It was how I felt about her before watching EoE, and after recently watching 3.33.

In all honesty, I happen to have a bit of a mixed feelings about her. While she may be rude at times, there's also a part of me that likes to think that there's more good in her than she's letting off. But as I mentioned earlier, it has been overshadowed by her negative traits, which makes it hard for some people to even come close to like her, while some others took their time a little more than others to come to an understanding. And it seems I still got ways to go.

As for what happened to her in EOE, all I can say is that I wished that that didn't really happened to her. I would have preferred that she actually survived her fight against the MP EVAs (but that's what the manga is for, plus she seemed genuinely concerned about Shinji during his fight against the MPEs). I just wished that Asuka would have been a bit more nicer, that would have probably make her more likeable.
ONE RING TO RULE THEM ALL. ONE RING YOU TO FIND IT. ONE RING TO BRING THEM ALL AND IN THE DARKNESS BIND THEM.

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Epilogue
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Re: Is Asuka really deserving of sympathy?

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Postby Epilogue » Mon May 01, 2017 11:47 pm

View Original Postbig_big_bozo wrote:Not sure if this is a joke, but do I have to point out that you could look at nearly every aspect of Eva this way? You can't shake a 3 inch stick in Eva without bumping into one horrible amalgamation of untreated psychosis or another. Sometimes you have to ask some tough questions to get to the root of the issue, and OP's somewhat callus line of questioning strikes me as perfectly valid. If Asuka were a real person, or someone with a similar mental state, such qustions would be inexcusable. But she's not, so taking the liberty of examining her character from an angle you might find unsavoury could perhaps lead to some interesting conclusions. Just food for thought.

I am completely serious when I say that I knew someone like Asuka and cared a great deal about that person, and I mean triggered as in angered to the point of physical violence. I guess what really reminded me of personal memories was not just Asuka as a standalone character, but also how she interacted with Shinji, and their overall inability to voice affection. Watching NGE was actually like watching a replay of all the mistakes I made in how I interacted with the person I mentioned.


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