Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:13 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:I'll just leave this here.

That hardly depicts a happy or healthy relationship though, so it would seem to argue against whatever point you might be trying to make with it.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Joseki » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:17 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:At base, it comes down to the fact Shinji is a low-status male, and Asuka is a high-status female. Human nature doesn't work that way around. As I've opined before, if they did get together, about six months later, Shinji would come home from doing all the shopping to find her in bed with Touji, shortly to be followed by a re-enactment of the coffee pot scene.


Asuka is an "outcast" as much as Shinji is, they both have pratically no parents, no friends, no place to call home. Asuka act as superior but in reality her life is as miserable as Shinji's life.
I also disagree with the comment about human nature, it's simply not what I've experienced so far in my life.
Last edited by Joseki on Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:03 pm

Those are very good points, Joseki: as like tends to seek out like, it demonstrates they tend to be far more similar than different.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:53 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:I also disagree with the comment about human nature, it's simply not what I've experienced so far in my life.


The human nature is a term used by anarchists/capitalists to justify their narrow-minded vision of reality.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:35 pm

Asuka isn't high status at all. She's in the same socio-economic class as Shinji, with a less impressive combat record and less powerful parents. If anything, Shinji has the higher status.

Asuka's rudeness and boastfulness don't come from her position, but from her desire to be independent after her parents let her down (and, ironically, it's this behaviour that makes people view her as a child even more).
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Sachi » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:09 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:Asuka doesn't have sexual tension, because she can't. Remember when she left the guy in the rollercoaster? Of course she sexually likes Kaji, but more like a platonic way.

I wouldn't call Asuka ripping her blouse open to show Kaji her developing breasts in any way platonic.

What makes you think she's not capable of sexual tension? Let's not forget thermal expansion, the wall of Jericho, wanting to be held when kissing Shinji, etc
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:50 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:What makes you think she's not capable of sexual tension? Let's not forget thermal expansion, the wall of Jericho, wanting to be held when kissing Shinji, etc


I hadn't thought about it before, but that sexual tension between Shinji and Asuka is very interesting.

I can understand why Shinji would be attracted to Asuka - she's physically attractive, they work together, and he's used to being treated poorly and hates himself, so her insults and boasts have less of an affect on him.

But as for Asuka's attraction to Shinji, that seems rather unusual. What makes Shinji interesting to her? Perhaps it's his kindness, something that she doesn't remember from her Mother and Father.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby jcmoorehead » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:57 am

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:But as for Asuka's attraction to Shinji, that seems rather unusual. What makes Shinji interesting to her? Perhaps it's his kindness, something that she doesn't remember from her Mother and Father.


It doesn't really go into it in the series but I'd imagine Shinji is seen as somewhat cute in the series too. You already touched on his kindness. He has moments of selflessness and bravery too, look at when he jumped into the volcano to save her.

Also I think, especially in that early part of the series them being around each other allows them to feel... normal I suppose. They're both Eva pilots so they don't treat each other differently because of that. Instead they get along at times, they fight and bicker at times, they help each other with homework, they watch TV together they just act... normal together. I think both of them appreciate that opportunity.

She maybe feels she can be herself around him, and maybe even lower her defenses. Unfortunately that doesn't last because of the events after Leliel.

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Postby Cybermat47 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:20 am

View Original Postjcmoorehead wrote:It doesn't really go into it in the series but I'd imagine Shinji is seen as somewhat cute in the series too. You already touched on his kindness. He has moments of selflessness and bravery too, look at when he jumped into the volcano to save her.

Also I think, especially in that early part of the series them being around each other allows them to feel... normal I suppose. They're both Eva pilots so they don't treat each other differently because of that. Instead they get along at times, they fight and bicker at times, they help each other with homework, they watch TV together they just act... normal together. I think both of them appreciate that opportunity.

She maybe feels she can be herself around him, and maybe even lower her defenses. Unfortunately that doesn't last because of the events after Leliel.


You know, I think you're right. Their relationship with each other in the beginning was the closest to a normal family that they'd ever experienced. Shinji didn't have that, he lived with his teacher after Gendo abandoned him. Asuka didn't have that, her Father had betrayed her Mother, who later committed suicide.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you just nailed it :)
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:37 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:At base, it comes down to the fact Shinji is a low-status male, and Asuka is a high-status female. Human nature doesn't work that way around. As I've opined before, if they did get together, about six months later, Shinji would come home from doing all the shopping to find her in bed with Touji, shortly to be followed by a re-enactment of the coffee pot scene.


I disagree with Asuka's high-status female thing and Shinji's low because if you look at Shinji he is surrounded by friends and is popular with in his own circle, Asuka isn't she only has one close friend which is Hikari and there are hints that the other girls don't like her and might hate her as its shown in Kensuke's photos. As in one photo as its being shot she walks past a group of girls and they all pull the oh god not her face. Yes she is popular among the boys but not because they give a shit about her feelings or who is as a person but because they want to bed her so they can brag about how they slept with the exotic transfer student and are happy to buy her pictures from Kensuke for other purposes.
Last edited by silvermoonlight on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:52 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:I wouldn't call Asuka ripping her blouse open to show Kaji her developing breasts in any way platonic.


I wouldn't call that sexual tension either. That's Asuka wanting to be sexually mature, because she wants to be accepted. "Atashi o mite".
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:11 pm

I would say that showing her breasts to Kaji very much refutes it as a 'platonic' relationship, at least in her mind. She did want acceptance, but acceptance as an adult, which in her mind translated to a sexual relationship. Whether or not Kaji tried to treat the relationship as platonic, Asuka did not see it that way.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:13 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:I wouldn't call that sexual tension either. That's Asuka wanting to be sexually mature, because she wants to be accepted. "Atashi o mite".


I always felt it was more her wanting to grow up fast hence her being sexual and sort of wanting sex because she assumes sex or being sexual will make her an adult but on Kaji's side I saw no sexual tension and he rightly rebuffs her affections. Though he should have explained as to why he did this and maybe make her see that she was mistaking his looking after her for feelings of love which can happen to children who have suffered neglect from what I've heard as they assume a person being kind to them might mean more when in truth it doesn't.
Last edited by silvermoonlight on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sachi » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:29 pm

Sexual tension can be one-sided, and wanting to be acknowledged sexually certainly falls under that umbrella. From Asuka's POV, not being a fully-grown woman might have been the only thing holding Kaji back from accepting her romance, and so she wanted to prove to him she was ready for sexual things. Tension.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:03 pm

I don't really get your question - Romantic interests in fiction aren't always supposed to be ideal & wholesome unless they're explicitly presented as role models - they're supposed to be interesting & tell good stories. Drama is interesting.

In the end I suppose it would depend on your definition of 'love', wether you mean 'romantic interest' in the general sense (in that sense there was a crush at least from Shinji's side & probably mutual lust), the intent to make the other one's partner or get each other's attention (that was there though little came of it), a deep connection/personal interest/ wish for each other's happiness (not there on either side) or like "quality caring twu wuw"/perfectly healthy relationship (probably not in this show anywhere)

I'd like to note that sticking unrealistic or self-serving expectations into the relationship doesn't equal not caring at all especially if one is immature and the less than glorious moments occurred under extreme stress. For the most part he just tries to get along with everyone. "Don't know what love is" is a hard term like they had bad role models & developed some questionable patterns but it's very much physically possible for them to feel attachments or harbor godwill. It#s more a question of wanting something but not knowing how/ what to do & what not to do.
If you waited till you're a perfect person before you look for a partner you'd never get around to it. It's something that to some extent you have to learn through experience like everything else wether that experience is a mutual journey with one person or a series of sucessively better ones with different ppl.

Like I don't think that Asuka was right in her assertion that Shinji has no particular attachment to her, after they've been living under the same roof & workd together as comerades.

---

To begin with they're only ever 'potential love interests' rather than an outright couple & Shinji has at least 2 others as a part of the whole awkward teenage experience they're not really the 'go to offcial couple' the way some fans make them out to be, granted given their young age they're not gonna being doing much more than just be awkward around each other & maybe hold hands or something.
It's pretty much your standard anime love triangle setup with Kaworu coming along later except the cute romcom stuff stops wwhen everything goes to hell so nothing really goes anywhere, but even without the drama of the angel war such an outcome wouldn't be unusual for their ages.

IMHO the situation in canonland is more that they're mainly rivals (except Shinji being his nonconfrontation people pleasing self isn't much of a rival) but also both lonely & thus forced to rely on each other for comfort attention & human contact at times, with their close proximity & teenage hormones doing the rest, like, he obviously lusts after her - Though there seems to be a bit of a crush from Shinji's side ("I want to be with you forever" in EoE)

Just from the show itself you could plausibly construct a symmetrical case for Asuka ('You won't even hold me'), but AFAIK there was one this interview where Miyamura answered the question as to wether she really likes him with a clear no (like not even platonically. )

In the end this story is more about coexistence, they're both essentially obstacles for each other to deal with, & the fact that humans get attached to each other is just another thing that makes it hard. Her mockery would hurt less if he didn't give a rat's ass about her.

---

Impossible is a hard word tho, sure it would be unlikely but they're both still young & malleable.

I mean it's sure forced if you consider it objectively, why this person you can't stand when there's 3 billion other humans, but you gotta cut fanfic writers some slack tho - the most realistic scenario is that they end up married to some completely different person that they met in their 20s but most ppl who read & write fanfic want to do or read something involving most of the canon cast so as a fanfic writer you're probably gonna pair him with Rei, Asuka or Kaworu. And Asuka's the one who's confirmed to becanonically alive at the end & the whole 'enemies to lovers' thing does have its potential even if I personally don't see it in those particular characters.


Besides, rare as it is, some ppl DO marry their highschool sweethearts.

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote: Shinji would come home from doing all the shopping to find her in bed with Touji


Though Asuka is petty enough to hurt someone by seducing their best friend, I doubt Touji would go along with it, he's more decent than that.
If you're referring to the Au sequence, Shinji literally didn't exist in that universe so no bro code block.


---

I mean they're certainly not very compatible.

"Opposites attract" is a long debunked fable (indeed AFAIK studies show such a strong tendency toward similar personality traits in lasting relationships that it was probably made up to explain why some partners have differences at all ) and besides simplistic - Ppl can be similar in some areas and different in others, & perhaps work around the 'different' areas because they understand each other so well in the 'similar' ones.
Same with this frankly hurtful idea that introversion needs to be 'fixed' preferrably by an extrovert; In fact a functioning introvert/extrovert pairing requires that both respect each other's nature. (ie, the introvert should let the extrovert get their people fix with their other friends & not deride their ambitions as shallow, and the extrovert should give the introvert their space & not talk over them)
Asuka is not in any way more well-adjusted than him just because she's an extrovert or a loudmouth; at most they're even, she'd need just as much work as him if not more, she's the one with the mean streak.

When it comes to similarities & differences, ppl often point to how they had similar bad experiences & how that should make them theoretically able to understand each other once the communication hickups are taken care of , but that disregards how their reactions to said trauma are strikingly different aside from human universals.
Their reactions are what's actually indicative of their personalities - the trauma was externally inflicted. I mean they have problems in general but they get on especially badly with each other compared to anyone else they know. Let's not forget that they both had some mostly normal friendships for most of the series.

What they have in common is hangups in initiationg communication (they kinda seem set up to push each other's buttons), what they don't have in common is everything else - They'd probably have very different life goals, Asuka can't stand any of Shinji's friends etc.

Bt again, relationships in fiction are supposed to be interesting not good in an objective IRL sense and assuming they eventually became mature adults there's very little that absolutely cant be made to work.

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:Well let's be honest, she doesn't need a friend. In fact, she already has a friend, Hikari. But she needs a closer relationship, she needs someone who can understand her, someone like her, and at the same time, someone who can give all of himself not just sexually, but the whole picture.


That's bull. No one "needs" a boyfriend and the whole idea is preposterous & toxic. Romance doesn't "fix" people. It can both provide support and additional challenges, but one way or another the way your romance (or any other type of relationship) goes depends on you. You go into it as you, you don't suddenly become a different person. if anything having your shit together would be a prerequisite for better romance but no one ha their shit 100% together & peoople still want boy/girl/datefriends so yeah.

Sure she could benefit from some genuine emotional connection but that has little to do with wether they're a friend a lover or a surrogate family member and much more to do with Asuka being emotionally honest.

That she doesn't get the understanding she wants has less to do with the lack of willing people - She's super popular at school, Misato & Kaji aren't at good at this as they could be & not perceptive enough to see through her mask but they did try to parent her, she had this random date guy right there etc.
It's her attitude that thwarts it - which is not the same as saying it's all her fault, she developed these patterns as a response to trauma, but there's only so much another person can do about it, especially if they have their own problems.

Your "someone who can give you everything" sounds more like a father or slave than a boyfriend anyways. A lover is an equal who has their own life, a symmetrical & mutual relation. If you want to get you have to give first. I

She has to grow herself, see a shrink or revaluate her priorities & maybe THEN the romance she wants can happen. Heck, she could learn during/while the romance happens providing a practical example but she would still have to do the learning & it would be the learning that makes her better.

She has the exact same hangup with Hikari - not as visciously because Hikari was never a rival, but when Hikari was all willing to comfort her & take her in when she was all her lowest, she could only read her comfort as unwanted pity. Like if Asuka had been able to open up, she could have spilled the backstory to her and I'm sure Hikari would have been supportive & helped her get better. On the other hand I if she wouldn't take comfort from Hikari why'd she take comfort from a boyfriend? A boyfriend, more so than a regular friend, would be someone you want to impress & seem appealing to.

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:
But as for Asuka's attraction to Shinji, that seems rather unusual. What makes Shinji interesting to her?


He's there, readily available, at her hom where she's most likely to get pangs of loneliness/ moments of weakness. Also, he takes her mistreatment where most people would tell her to eff off.

Tellingly, he was just as antagonistic when he first met her (which in a way shows how much he'd grown since the prologue arc where he took a whack to the face & felt he deserved it/ just lamented his misfortune) but after he was stuck with her in close quarters he inevitably started caring what she thinks of him.

----

As for the status question, I think it makes more sense to look at their immediate microscopic environment at their school than the macroscopic situation, that's what their day-to-day experience is like.

At their school, Asuka is immediately established as a Popular Girl (TM) whom everybody talk about, makes friends fast, has no problem getting dates etc.
They don't really make her feel better because these are mostly superficial relations, but that doesn't mean they're not there - She feels alone because of her attitude & not showing anyone her true feelings, not for lack of wanting people or "status". She is anything BUT an outcast - and indeed readily & gleefully mocks those who would be considered outcasts, such as Rei. Asuka (at least the original version Rebuild is more debatable) is very much shown to be popular at school, described as 'idol-like' by the writers & very much acts that way, too: She expresses dissatisfaction and anger openly, touts her status and prestige, always demands special treatment & generally acts spoiled.
That she inwardly feels isolated & abandoned doesn't change any of this, also, though they're not really any good to her she does have her father & stepmon & seems to be in semi-regular phone contact with them & at least the stepmom has the prestige & education of a doctor. Also it's implied that the ppl at Berlin's NERV branch spoiled her & gave her lots of attention, she owns TONS of fancy belongings that don't even fit in Misato's appartment.
None of that is any substitute for real emotional connection, but it IS status.



There's probably a moral lesson in here about how archievement & superficial admiration alone doesn't make you happier or better than anyone else, b/c lets face it, truly happy & confident people don't feel a need to put others down. We don't see much of the date guy or non-Hkari friends because they don't really matter beyond stating that they exist.

Shinji may technically be eminence grise but he doesn't even know what a big deal his folks are and neither do his classmates. (No one ever goes "oh that's the boss man's kid, lets smooze up to him") As for Gendo, he might as well not be there. He owns a fancy mansion but Shinji ain't seen the inside of it. He lives with a perpetually broke 29 year old. He basically grew up as a foster child & for his first few weeks in his class went unnoticed.
He's got a small group of genuine friends but they include the class clown, the local super nerd and that weird girl nobody really knows.
That said he's not exactly "un-popular" at least not after his classmates find out he's the pilot there seems to be some short-lived attention complete with some fangirls.
For most of the show's duration his placement in the class hierarchy is probably best described as 'average joe' though Shinji himself would probably rate it lower due to his doubt in relationships and nonassertive personality.

There's a limit as far as this goes because of clothes, healthcare etc. but to some degree social status is made up, people don't wear signs with their parent's incomes, on the one-to-one level status in small groups is still determined by a person's attitude & personality.

That said this "human nature" argument is BS - people of different status date all the time it's just less common.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:48 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote: That's bull. No one "needs" a boyfriend and the whole idea is preposterous & toxic. Romance doesn't "fix" people. It can both provide support and additional challenges, but one way or another the way your romance (or any other type of relationship) goes depends on you. You go into it as you, you don't suddenly become a different person. if anything having your shit together would be a prerequisite for better romance but no one ha their shit 100% together & peoople still want boy/girl/datefriends so yeah.


Please, don't twist my words. Of course the idea of needing a boyfriend to be a healthy person is toxic! When did I say otherwise? And (that's the funny part) I didn't use the word "boyfriend"! I already stated it. The words "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" (in an usual way) don't apply in the NGE universe (maybe with the Misato-Kaji exception).

When I said that Asuka needs so and so, I didn't mean as a prescription but a diagnosis, a description of what Asuka is looking for. And, duh! Of course it's a toxic idea, because Asuka is like that. Asuka has problems man. So please stop misunderstanding my words, it's annoying as hell....

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Your "someone who can give you everything" sounds more like a father or slave than a boyfriend anyways. A lover is an equal who has their own life, a symmetrical & mutual relation. If you want to get you have to give first


Yeah, it's not like a possessive, sick relationship haven't ever existed in the history of humanity... It's not the way it should be, but NGE is not about the way things should be.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:36 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Just from the show itself you could plausibly construct a symmetrical case for Asuka ('You won't even hold me'), but AFAIK there was one this interview where Miyamura answered the question as to wether she really likes him with a clear no (like not even platonically. )

So Asuka never even liked him in the first place, huh? Should've thought as much.
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby jcmoorehead » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:08 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So Asuka never even liked him in the first place, huh? Should've thought as much.


Well no, that's just one persons interpretation, granted she is Asuka's VA but it's hardly conclusive proof that Asuka didn't like Shinji at all. Anno is someone who has gone on record as saying there are many interpretations and there is evidence within the series itself that Asuka did/does like Shinji. If she didn't why would she want him to hold her? Why would she get jealous at him and Rei talking? Why would she have visited him after Leliel?

I'm not saying all of these are full blown examples of her loving him, but to say she never liked him at all seems a bit unfair.

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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:59 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So Asuka never even liked him in the first place, huh? Should've thought as much.

The correct way to respond to what Kendrix said is to track down the original statement before basing any conclusions upon it. As is, you seem to be just lazily going belly-up for your preexisting bias.

(EDIT: Sorry, that really came out poorly, didn't it? It's a few days after the fact now, so I'll apologize to C.T. via PM.)
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Re: Is it impossible for Shinji and Asuka to love one another?

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:36 am

^
:asuka_stare:

...Anyway, TV Tropes would refer to Miyamura's statement as Word of Saint Paul: it doesn't hold the weight of, say Anno's statements (Word of God), but unless directly contradicted, might as well be canon, and is worth strong consideration.

Sometimes it does supersede Word of God, as well. Ridley Scott was adamant that Decker in Blade Runner was a replicant, but seems to have flipped on that for the sale of sequels. Harrison Ford always maintained Decker was human, and seems to have won that debate.

Of course, it's all assumptive: at the end of the day, they leave so much unfinished and ambiguous that there's a wide range of interpretations. Perhaps the best tragedy of the show is that, when faced with the end of the world, instead of opening up and being honest and liberated (like you tend to see in such fiction), they become more insular and isolated.
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